1950 Scooter EV-Conversion

[jas67]

Thanks! The front forks are the originals. I took them apart to rebuild. I have a plasma CNC machine so designed and cut out the front caliper mount.

The rear I took my needed measurements and drew out a layout on a large piece of cardboard. I then cut my square tubing to match with that and used a big straight edge to line up and tack everything in place. Then went back and fully welded it. Yes, I have a large shop and build bikes and cars

Plasma CNC Machine!!!

Where are you located, and are you for hire?

 

[jas67]

Beautiful build

And great basis to upgrade with a stronger, larger (self build?) battery pack later on.

I'm gathering supplies and components to do a battery build for mine, watch for battery build thread.
I'm more than willing to share my experiences and blunders to help the next guy.

 

[MDG]

Thanks! The front forks are the originals. I took them apart to rebuild. I have a plasma CNC machine so designed and cut out the front caliper mount.

The rear I took my needed measurements and drew out a layout on a large piece of cardboard. I then cut my square tubing to match with that and used a big straight edge to line up and tack everything in place. Then went back and fully welded it. Yes, I have a large shop and build bikes and cars

Plasma CNC Machine!!!

Where are you located, and are you for hire?

I am in the PNW. Washington state. I’m always down to do some jobs. Happy to discuss what your needs are! I’ll keep an eye out for your new battery build!

 

[j bjork]

What size depends of what you can fit, how much capacity you need etc.
But if you want performance I think you need a battery that can deliver about 400A.

400A is definitely excessive. I have the 4KW QS motor on my E-Vespa conversion. 200A is might quick. 200A at 72V is just over 14KW. That is a LOT of power. The 4KW motor can take it in bursts, but, the battery pack I have heats up quickly with too much of that. This pack is a 20s8p 21700 pack built with high-current cells.

I didnt talk about what could be considered quick on a particular vehicle, I was talking about the motor.
It should be able to take 400A bursts and more. Just because you have not run higher than 200A dosent mean that it is some kind of max, far from it. And what did you say, 140bA on the 138 70h? Right..

I dont mean that you can put it in a car and run it continuous, and the same thing with the battery.
It dosent have to do 400A continuous, but it has to be able to do it in bursts without too much sag.

What really matters for the motor is the phase amps, but if you run 120bA you probably dont run a lot of pA either.
Then you could probably just as well use a smaller motor if you dont run a relatively high continuous power.

You made some other good points on battery heating etc though that I didnt go in to.

 

[jas67]

What size depends of what you can fit, how much capacity you need etc.
But if you want performance I think you need a battery that can deliver about 400A.

400A is definitely excessive. I have the 4KW QS motor on my E-Vespa conversion. 200A is might quick. 200A at 72V is just over 14KW. That is a LOT of power. The 4KW motor can take it in bursts, but, the battery pack I have heats up quickly with too much of that. This pack is a 20s8p 21700 pack built with high-current cells.

I didnt talk about what could be considered quick on a particular vehicle, I was talking about the motor.
It should be able to take 400A bursts and more. Just because you have not run higher than 200A dosent mean that it is some kind of max, far from it. And what did you say, 140bA on the 138 70h? Right..

I dont mean that you can put it in a car and run it continuous, and the same thing with the battery.
It dosent have to do 400A continuous, but it has to be able to do it in bursts without too much sag.

What really matters for the motor is the phase amps, but if you run 120bA you probably dont run a lot of pA either.
Then you could probably just as well use a smaller motor if you dont run a relatively high continuous power.

You made some other good points on battery heating etc though that I didnt go in to.

120bA * 72V = 8,640W, over double the continuous rated power of my 4KW motor, so, no, I don't agree that I just as well could've used a smaller motor. I tend to run it continuously at 4-5 KW. Running continuous power higher than that gets the battery pack too warm for longevity. This is a big reason I'm building the second battery pack to put in parallel with the first.

At any given power output, sag should be roughly half what it is, resulting in one half the overall power loss, and one quarter the heat dissipation in each pack vs. what is being dissipated in the single pack. I should be able to run continuous power output of 8 kw or more with both packs supplying power, which I WILL definitely do. 4-5kw is about 45 MPH, slower on up hills. This motor will power my scoot up to 62 MPH no problem, but, as I said, heats up the battery. Many of the two-lane roads around here require running at 55-60 MPH to not hold up traffic. I look forward to being able to ride continuously at that speed without concern of overheating the battery.

As an alternative to adding the second battery, I could added some sort of active (air) cooling (fans?) to the battery pack, but, I also wanted increased range. My current range is about 28-32 miles, averaging 40-45 MPH. With the second pack, I should get more than double that (remember, less losses). Also, will be less likely to trigger low-volt cutoff at higher throttle settings when the pack gets below 25% charge. Additionally, my goal is to almost always operate the battery between 20 and 80% SOC to maximize battery life. Currently, I charge to 100% when I need the range, and 80% otherwise.

 

[MDG]

Well, I have no idea what to do anymore with this damn software. I cleared and reset my PC and downgraded to windows 10 and still the software wont work. When I try to open one of the softwares I get this error about debugging. This is literally driving me nuts!

CAN is off also. I only get this error message when I try to open the EM200 software. The other one doesnt give me this error but it still wont allow me to use the software. When I click "OPEN" i get that random code message.

 

[jas67]

I hate windows for this and other reasons.
Is there Linux or Android software available for your controller?

Also, if your CAN interface connects to your PC with USB as I suspect it would, you could run an older version of Windows in a virtual machine using Virtual Box or VMWare. USB devices can be "connected" directly to the virtual machine. I can help you with that process.

That VM, once you have things working, you can keep isolated from the internet and turn of automatic update so it does not get broken by updates.

What version of Windows are others using successfully with this software?

 

[MDG]

I hate windows for this and other reasons.
Is there Linux or Android software available for your controller?

Also, if your CAN interface connects to your PC with USB as I suspect it would, you could run an older version of Windows in a virtual machine using Virtual Box or VMWare. USB devices can be "connected" directly to the virtual machine. I can help you with that process.

That VM, once you have things working, you can keep isolated from the internet and turn of automatic update so it does not get broken by updates.

I also hate windows. Been an Apple user for years but went and got a PC just for this software
I downgraded to windows 10 reset multiple times and tried a few different software downloads and literally nothing is working. I continue to get an error code.

I may have to try and get windows on my MacBook Air but this is really deferring me from doing another EV swap. It shouldn’t be this difficult. The more annoying thing is I had it up and running perfectly and unfortunately I think the laptop did an update and that’s when the problem started

What version of Windows are others using successfully with this software?

 

[MDG]

Are those of you running the Votol software using the Dropbox download on page one of the EM150 thread? Or are you using a download from someone else?

I found a video of a guy doing a download but it looks like the old version but it follows the manual almost identically.

 

[MDG]

So maybe someone can clear up some things regarding batteries. I’ve been told now a few times my battery is too small for the 150 controller.

It’s a 72v 30ah
50a continuous
100a peak

The scooter gets up and goes plenty quick and is a blast to ride.

What is your recommendation for a decent battery spec? I’m starting a new moto project soon and will run a 138 70H mid drive motor.

Thanks

 

[MDG]

Holly crap I figured out the software issue. My com ports where all measured and not configured. Something got wonky. Reset my PC and reset downloaded all new everything and were in business. I turned off my wifi and internet connection to the pc so it can’t do any BS updates or driver re configurations. Was able to get the Votol software just fine now. Hallelujah

 

[MDG]

Quick walk around of the project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uZOr4QuLVY

 

[MDG]

9 mile ride today! Scoot feels good. I tuned it down a bit to help with range a bit.

How does one calculate range estimate?

I have a 72v 30AH battery

So..72x30=2160watt hours.

From here, how do I determine my WH per mile to get me range?

 

[jas67]

9 mile ride today! Scoot feels good. I tuned it down a bit to help with range a bit.

How does one calculate range estimate?

I have a 72v 30AH battery

So..72x30=2160watt hours.

From here, how do I determine my WH per mile to get me range?

You're best off just doing it empirically.
Ride it, monitor starting and ending voltage, and keep a log.
When you get down to a no-load voltage of about 60V you're at 0% charge. You'll find that due to voltage sag, under load, you're low-voltage cutoff may kick in under load from a no-load voltage higher than that, maybe 62V, depending on how much sag you get.

I'm going to guess your range will be 25-28 miles. I think my battery (also 72V) is around 32ah. I get about 28 miles range until I have to be VERY light on the throttle to avoid the BMS hitting low voltage cutout.

Charge to 100% (84V), go ride until no-load voltage is around 72V that is about half your true range, maybe a little less. How ever many miles you've ridden, double that, and that is likely your safe range at the speeds and terrains you've just ridden.

Range will vary a LOT with speed and terrain (hills).

 

[MDG]

Awesome, thanks for the info! I was riding in mode 3 or High for most of it being pretty hard on it haha I was averaging speeds of 40-48mph and occasionally going 50 and over.

I left my shop at 83v and got home and it’s are 77v right now after doing 7 miles. Sorry, thought it was 9 but that was with quite a few large hills and trying to keep up with my wife on her big bore Kawasaki Z125.

 

[MDG]

So in this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=93794

He goes based of 20 WH per mile. Again, I know it’s all relative but is this number dependent on what exactly? Is it speed or battery info?

What would a typical WH/mile be on a EV scooter or small moto you think?

 

[jas67]

So in this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=93794

He goes based of 20 WH per mile. Again, I know it’s all relative but is this number dependent on what exactly? Is it speed or battery info?

What would a typical WH/mile be on a EV scooter or small moto you think?

80-100 wh per mile is probably a good starting point.

Based on my battery capacity, and similar riding (40-50 mph, with hills) that is what I'm getting with my E-Vespa (4kw QS motor, Kelly controller).

 

[MDG]

So in this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=93794

He goes based of 20 WH per mile. Again, I know it’s all relative but is this number dependent on what exactly? Is it speed or battery info?

What would a typical WH/mile be on a EV scooter or small moto you think?

80-100 wh per mile is probably a good starting point.

Based on my battery capacity, and similar riding (40-50 mph, with hills) that is what I'm getting with my E-Vespa (4kw QS motor, Kelly controller).

Right on. I can live with that for now! I did 15 miles test and like you said when I got back I’m right around 72v so half way. That was with some moderate heavy and light throttle use.

 

[MDG]

Nice pic of the scoot!

 

[jas67]

Nice pic of the scoot!

Beautiful scoot!

What size wheels/tires does it have?
I love the spoke front wheel, very classy. I also love the front disc brake. My Vespa conversion still has the lame front drum.

 

[MDG]

Nice pic of the scoot!

Beautiful scoot!

What size wheels/tires does it have?
I love the spoke front wheel, very classy. I also love the front disc brake. My Vespa conversion still has the lame front drum.

It has 12 inch wheels.
Front is a 1.85x12 with a 3.00x13 Heidenau tire
Rear is a 3.5x12 rim with a 120/70-12 Shinko tire

It handles well. Can carve some twisties pretty well!

 

[jas67]

Nice pic of the scoot!

Beautiful scoot!

What size wheels/tires does it have?
I love the spoke front wheel, very classy. I also love the front disc brake. My Vespa conversion still has the lame front drum.

It has 12 inch wheels.
Front is a 1.85x12 with a 3.00x13 Heidenau tire
Rear is a 3.5x12 rim with a 120/70-12 Shinko tire

It handles well. Can carve some twisties pretty well!

Nice. My 2007 GTS250ie has 12" wheels/tires, and a much better suspension than the PX125 (which has 10").

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Sweet project, very clean and nicely done!
Just wondering, how come you don't have a rear brake?
Probably better to install one if possible, regen isn't the most reliable thing.

One other remark, if I may: it is generally better to have the phase wires going downwards, you don't want water to accumulate forever inside the motor axis, it might find its way inside at some point, better orient it towards the ground so that any water going in will find its way out easily.

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

120bA * 72V = 8,640W, over double the continuous rated power of my 4KW motor, so, no, I don't agree that I just as well could've used a smaller motor. I tend to run it continuously at 4-5 KW. ery.

You can go wayyyyy over that, don't worry.
My 2000W motor on the scooter takes 210 battery Amps and 510 phase amps every day, it is 7 or 8 years old now and still works perfectly fine.
Don't worry, these things are bullet proof :lol:
But yeah, you need a powerful battery if you intend to do that someday :wink:

 

[jas67]

120bA * 72V = 8,640W, over double the continuous rated power of my 4KW motor, so, no, I don't agree that I just as well could've used a smaller motor. I tend to run it continuously at 4-5 KW. ery.

You can go wayyyyy over that, don't worry.
My 2000W motor on the scooter takes 210 battery Amps and 510 phase amps every day, it is 7 or 8 years old now and still works perfectly fine.
Don't worry, these things are bullet proof :lol:
But yeah, you need a powerful battery if you intend to do that someday :wink:

Oh I know. I've put 240bA through this motor. Problem is my battery heats up too quickly at that current.
That is why I'm building a second battery. Once it is done and in place (currently no progress on that due to lack of available time), I will increase the bA limit to have more fun with it. The torque at 240bA is amazing!