420A 24S ESC by aliens

[bearing]

I think the pictures are from different Sevcons EDIT: it should be: a different Sevcon. I used 150V FETs since he wrote that it has a 350A 2 min limit, which matches the controller with a 116V max battery voltage, which should use 150V FETs.
http://www.sevcon.com/media/2104/gen4_data_sheet.pdf

Now that I take a second look, I think that they are maybe 100V FETs, since the allowed nominal voltage is 80V.

With IRFB4110, you can divide every number in the previous calc by two. It's still roughly on par with the SMD version.

EDIT: After looking at it a third time, I'm back to thinking it is 150V FETs. Sevcon could never specify 116V max voltage if they are using 100V FETs. 80V nominal battery on 150V FETs, thats a good margin.

 

[Punx0r]

Bearing and Jeremy,

Thank you for the explanations. It was late when I replied last night, and a google search for "commutation capacitors" didn't reveal anything meaningful to me. I was labouring under the misunderstanding that the input caps stabilised the input voltage...

I didn't realise they saw AC, and of course that puts them in series to the current flow, hence ESR. I also didn't realise high dv/dt would damage a FET.

That's why I enjoy this forum

 

[spinningmagnets]

I have a couple of these for my big scale RC airplane and my E-bike prototype

The above quote is from the Ebay ad. I was curious about what kind of E-bike set-up would use a 72V ESC capable of many amps. It's been very limiting to imagine putting together an RC set-up with more power than Recumpence or AJ, when they are running 12S LiPo (44V?) on a Castle HV-160A. IIRC, both are using RC motors that are large, but have a very low kV...and even then, they must still use a two-stage reduction before the final chain-drive.

Does this ESC require that the buyer custom-rewind an existing motor to have a useable RPM at the shaft? Posting pics of the sellers E-bike might answer a few questions. Both Matt and AJ (among many others) have posted You-Tube videos and CycleAnalyst readouts. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[bearing]

This is the latest:

Hi, I would like to know how you conducted these tests. How did you put a load on the controller? was the load a motor? how did you load the motor? What kind of batteries did you use? Did you measure the temperature of the heatsinks after the test?

Did you find the partnumber of the FETs?

Hi. i have done one test for a customer yesterday. It was a 300 Amp ESC for an electric scooter. The load on the motor was an electric scooter roll with 50 Kg on.

I have a program software for upgrade the ESC firmware. It also read all the info by an interface.

Here all the details

temp. 38°
max watt 13.780
max current 287.6 A
max voltage 82,8

motor 120/80 165kv
motor pole 24
motor rpm max 13.854
battery 20S Lipo ( 5 x 4S 50C discharge )

The max current was very similar tested with an electric clamp Amp.

This ESC have IRF-----* mosfet. 10 per each phase.

I will check the 400 Amp model when i will received the next order because the model that i have in stock is already assembled.

If you don't believe me my friend i will send the item at half price. Then after test if you realise that it is ok for you you will be honest and pay the rest. if not i will wait the item back and refund you. The delivery is at your cost.

regards

*I removed the part number since this is an open forum, and I'm not sure if he would approve if I put that info here. If you are interested in the number, you can PM me.
EDIT: But I guess I can tell you the RDS_on, it's between 3 and 4 mohm typical.

 

[liveforphysics]

I don't think listing the MOSFET used in a product is something anyone tries to keep secret unless they are trying to cover using a counterfit part or something.

List the part, or PM it to me and I will list it and go through the thermal calc step by step of what 10 per phase is capable of handling.

 

[bearing]

I guess you are right, and I didn't sign any NDA.
IRFS 3207

 

[brunotollot]

Good evening.

Sorry to post this so late, but I have been very busy.

I want to just talk briefly about my product and let you know why this product works well and hopefully to demonstrate that I am not "full of shit" as I have been refered to by someone on here.

I have sold many controllers to people all over the world for different applications (like electric supercharge at 100,000 rmp, ebike with hub motor 6,000w 250amp, electric boat 42 inch with twin 6,300 brusless motor, electric scooter etc) and so far everyone has been very happy with the product. If there is a problem I can only promise to help, resolve or refund. I always offer a warrantly etc because I am confident in the product and I am always honest about its capabilities.

I understand after 15 years of this hobby how an electronic system works. You can have the best product but if you don't have the right setting it wont work or it will burn the system. This is why I always ask customers what application they want it for because I can update the firmware. Then everything is important, like the components, wiring, all the parts that you will connect to the controller (interface, throttle etc)

With reference to the person who said that the scooter test on you tube was a no load test, please see this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dChL_vUOGAE&feature=youtu.be

The controller is the 300amp model at 60v (15s lipo) with 80100 motor. This motor is rated at giving 150amp at 16s lipo

I also want to say thanks to the people who have bought a contoller from me who believe in the product and thank you to those who support me in this discussion. I only sell these as this is my passion, I spent a long time trying to find these products and now I can advise others and help them with the projects. Alien ESC works and most of the big brands that you pay £100's for I have found in my expereince failed.

I will be selling two new models - 200amp 120v and 300amp 16s sensored

I will also be selling poweful brushless motors-
80100 brushless outrunner, 180 or 130kv 7000 watt, Version3 with new high quality bearing and full stainless steel torx bolt
12085 brushless outrunner, 150kv 12000 watt
12095 brushless outrunner, 130kv 15000 watt

If you would like anymore info then please just go to ebay and write to me. The website is not ready yet.

Thanks, Bruno

 

[Punx0r]

most of the big brands that you pay £100's for I have found in my expereince failed.

Then I guess you can understand most peoples' skepticism

If your controller can put a true ~250A into a "proper" motor in a "proper" application like a large hubmotor on an ebike then I'd think that would be more than enough proof for most.

 

[bearing]

"proper" application like a large hubmotor

To me, that doesn't sound very hard. I'm sure you can use a lot of controllers for that.
The hard thing is to drive these big RC motors, since they run at high speeds and high amps. They also have low inductance, which is makes it hard on the controller.

 

[toolman2]

good to have you here brunotollot,

and please dont take the comments above too personally (even if some are kinda personnel )

its more just that rc controllers in general are not well suited to what people are doing here, ie getting off a standing start with a big (possibly very low inductance and resistance) motor under very high torque load, although maby perfectly fine for a relatively free spinning prop.

the drama for us is firstly we 'usually' need hall sensors for position feedback before rotation begins, then under full load we can see over 15 times the battery current at the phases (and fets) and the controller needs to sense all this (ideally with phase current sensors) with quite a bit of brains to keep all of this smoothly in control ect etc.

its going to be a real challenge to not fry the fets with the first initial current spikes without all the stuff our 10 times bigger controllers have, and for us this generally means rc controlers have a real rough time.

it is possible though, so we would like to hear what this has going for it, and how programible it is, beyond the usual rc settings? -did you say you could write special settings in? and can it do torque (not speed) based throttle?

 

[Punx0r]

"proper" application like a large hubmotor

To me, that doesn't sound very hard. I'm sure you can use a lot of controllers for that.
The hard thing is to drive these big RC motors, since they run at high speeds and high amps. They also have low inductance, which is makes it hard on the controller.

Ok, large RC motor on an ebike

Like Toolman describes, something much different to spinning a prop

 

[toolman2]

good to have you here brunotollot,

its going to be a real challenge to not fry the fets with the first initial current spikes without all the stuff our 10 times bigger controllers have, and for us this generally means rc controlers have a real rough time.

it is possible though, so we would like to hear what this has going for it, and how programible it is, beyond the usual rc settings? -did you say you could write special settings in? and can it do torque (not speed) based throttle?

gee, it went all quiet here for some reason?

 

[spinningmagnets]

When running the Castle-Creations HV160 ($250 on Ebay) on Astro or Turnigy 80-100 motors with a low 130-kV, Matt and AJ (among others) have had VERY good success running a double reduction using existing HTD pulleys combined with Kart sprockets using #219 chain. That is with a system using 12S (44V-50V).

In order to use 24S (88V-100V), an Ebike builder would have to find an appropriate motor with a kV that is half of the kV in proven motors that have been used, or...use a reduction that is about 20:1 instead of the 10:1 that has been common. (or a third option you could describe?)

In order to run 24S in the battery pack, you can keep the 12S Amp-hour size the same, and then double the volume of the pack (and price) to get the higher volts. There's nothing wrong with building an E-bike with 24S and your 420A ESC. Its just that so far...nobody has felt a compelling reason to explore a build using that.

I'm sure there's an application where the builder is very happy with the options that your 24S / 420A gives them. If you know of any builds (even if its not an E-bike) they would be interesting to see...

 

[liveforphysics]

I'm sure there's an application where the builder is very happy with the options that your 24S / 420A gives them.

Everyone of us would be ecstatic with 24s 420A. The problem is, it's impossible for that controller to even be close to 150A 24S, but they are claiming it's 420A.

 

[brunotollot]

Hi Punx0r, of course I understand. This is why I want to explain briefly how everything works. I also have blown some controllers, before understand how to fixed the “problem” in EV application. There are many things more or less important to consider but i think the most important are the mechanical part (freewheel system, reduction ratio etc). Getting this right helps in many ways (motor/ESC temperature, sync, load etc and the electronics. Here the point. This may sound strange but it works. My settings are really simple.

I was a motorcycle racer, Not anymore for different reason . Years ago racing vehicles were very simple, the driver was the brain, now the brain is the electronics (CPU, ECU, controllers etc)

What I want to say is that we are not racers so we don't need extremely sophisticated vehicle. A motorcycle without electronics is easier to tune. It is dirty power on the wheel. Maybe it's not perfect like an electronic system (traction control, gas control, brake, ijection ext) but it work anyway, and more often. So my controller works like this. The firmware read less info. Means it's less likely that the controller will malfunction because the info from an EV system are quite different to a RC system.

I want say thanks to toolman for the post, and sorry if i can't reply fast, but like i say i have not many time.

Thanks again to who support me in this discussion, also thanks to spinningmagnets for the post.

And sorry for my not perfect english, But I'm Italian

 

[liveforphysics]

A motorcycle without electronics is easier to tune. It is dirty power on the wheel.

Funny you would say that. Every time I would make an adjustment to my GSXR750's carbs it would take me about 4hrs of work to try a different jet or needle etc, to just change timing was about an hour of work. Now with my injected GSXR1000, I can change my fuel and timing precisely how I wanted to change it in about 2mins to plug-in, change the map values, re-flash, and it's changed. So much less work and less parts to tune it than any mechanical ignition or carbs I've ever worked with.


I will tell you what Bruno, I have a professional motor dyno, and power supplies that can do 500amps from 0v to 120v. I'm willing to waste my time trying out your controller on a motor, and will make a video of it bursting into flames in under 10 seconds (this might be an optimistic guess) at 420amps (if it's ever capable of even getting to 420amps before it just explodes). Would that help your development?

 

[neptronix]

I'm beginning to think that this is worse than the "ultrafire 4000mah" battery thread.

 

[brunotollot]

Hi Mr Liveforphysic.

Normally I don't talk too much, but I would like to have the pleasure to share something with you. I do not know your experience on the bike so I do not judge what you claim, but I just want to express my opinion and my experiences. In a carb power system if you know the correct air / fuel ratio and the way in which the combustion chamber burning this mix, in an hour, with the right instruments you get a perfect adjustment. The only problem is that this system is affected much more of climate change, but in racing every race mean a new setting so this is not a big problem. In an electronic system, on road, the control unit has parameters that have a big range of adjustments and in modern commercial bike the control units are also self-adaptive then it is able to adapt the system to any type of circumstance. The music changes in the races. Must be absolute perfection so the fact that the electronic working on a various of parameters like variable intake geometry electronic connected to throttle, connected to sensors, actuators, brakes, bending angles sensors, traction etc.. a setting of 97% mean lose the race. This is the explanation for the fact that your SUZUKY 1000 always work well. There 90% is ok, “on road”. Did you ever drive your bike one day, and the next day take it and say: What's going on today, it seems to be another bike. This is due to the electronics. Does a lot by itself, but it is not always the same. Maybe try to start on a race track to the maximum and then we'll talk. Anyway we don't need to talk about racers, and actually i would like talk about that with a motorcycle race engineer, not with you, even if i know now that you know everything.

However, if you have time to waste or just just “two minutes” you may help the team Ducati and Valentino Rossi. They, more or less, trying to find a perfect setting for 2 years, but have some difficulty.

Also, 1 Amp or 500 Amp, if you want it is easy to blow everything. Anyway, I care about more or less 237 happy customers that use the controller for everything and everybody are very happy, leave me good feedback, put apart big and expensive brand for this ESC and noone have a problem.
I know two person. One is the only person that can judge, the other one is someone who can do everything, so i'm still not sure if you are god or superman! anyway when you will start to be polite, and don't call someone you don't know full of shit, and also start to use words like can, please etc, we can have a chat.

Thanks

 

[Arlo1]

Hi Mr Liveforphysic.

This is the explanation for the fact that your SUZUKY 1000 always work well. There 90% is ok, “on road”. Did you ever drive your bike one day, and the next day take it and say: What's going on today, it seems to be another bike. This is due to the electronics. Does a lot by itself, but it is not always the same.

You must be behind the times quite a ways because this is quite false. Once set properly computer controls are very repeatable and will feel very much the same day to day.

Also, 1 Amp or 500 Amp, if you want it is easy to blow everything. Anyway, I care about more or less 237 happy customers that use the controller for everything and everybody are very happy, leave me good feedback, put apart big and expensive brand for this ESC and noone have a problem.
I know two person. One is the only person that can judge, the other one is someone who can do everything, so i'm still not sure if you are god or superman! anyway when you will start to be polite, and don't call someone you don't know full of shit, and also start to use words like can, please etc, we can have a chat.

Thanks

Let Luke have a ecu he will test it and give you a fair review.
Or let me have one. I will do the same. I have 5 motors you can choose to test on and I would like to show everyone 420 amps!

 

[liveforphysics]

Hi Mr Liveforphysic.

Normally I don't talk too much, but I would like to have the pleasure to share something with you. I do not know your experience on the bike so I do not judge what you claim, but I just want to express my opinion and my experiences. In a carb power system if you know the correct air / fuel ratio and the way in which the combustion chamber burning this mix, in an hour, with the right instruments you get a perfect adjustment. The only problem is that this system is affected much more of climate change, but in racing every race mean a new setting so this is not a big problem. In an electronic system, on road, the control unit has parameters that have a big range of adjustments and in modern commercial bike the control units are also self-adaptive then it is able to adapt the system to any type of circumstance. The music changes in the races. Must be absolute perfection so the fact that the electronic working on a various of parameters like variable intake geometry electronic connected to throttle, connected to sensors, actuators, brakes, bending angles sensors, traction etc.. a setting of 97% mean lose the race. This is the explanation for the fact that your SUZUKY 1000 always work well. There 90% is ok, “on road”. Did you ever drive your bike one day, and the next day take it and say: What's going on today, it seems to be another bike. This is due to the electronics. Does a lot by itself, but it is not always the same. Maybe try to start on a race track to the maximum and then we'll talk. Anyway we don't need to talk about racers, and actually i would like talk about that with a motorcycle race engineer, not with you, even if i know now that you know everything.

However, if you have time to waste or just just “two minutes” you may help the team Ducati and Valentino Rossi. They, more or less, trying to find a perfect setting for 2 years, but have some difficulty.

I can't get an engine tuned in 2mins, and I never said that. I said I can make the change I wanted in 2 minutes. If you're making an adjustment in a carb or making an adjustment in a fuel map, you're still going to need to change it and dyno/ride see if it made it better or worse, the difference is when you can do it electrically each change takes 2 mins rather than pulling my fuel tank, pulling my air box, pulling my carb boots, disconnecting throttle and choke cables, flipping it over and having the bowls drain all over in a puddle of gas, opening each of the 4 carbs and changing a jet or needle, then re-assembling everything and trying the change. I've built over a dozen race engines, turbo, supercharged, nitrous, and now a custom electrically driven supercharger on my racecar. I leave the fuel/spark/cam angle tuning to my buddy James at SpeedFactory now days, he built and tunes the worlds quickest street Civic at 8.08 seconds and 190.48mph in the quarter mile right now, and has the skills to push a tune much closer to the edge than I'm comfortable doing, as his tuning is pushing past the ~700hp per liter of engine displacement range, and manages to hold together somehow. Here is a video of the last event breaking the world record:
[youtube]X1M-VUbLfZk[/youtube]

if you are god or superman! anyway when you will start to be polite, and don't call someone you don't know full of shit, and also start to use words like can, please etc, we can have a chat.

Thanks

Quit saying it's a 24s 420amp controller (which is flat out impossible to even survive for 10sec), and I will quit calling you full of shit.

I know exactly what that controller will do at even 300amps for any EV-useful duration of time (like climbing a long hill). It will make a big black char of carbon and bits of melted plastic and copper and aluminum soot.

Would it survive in an airplane or RC car? I'm sure it would do great. Would it last 10seconds on my dyno with a representative EV type loading on it at 420amps? Nope.

 

[neptronix]

Let Luke have a ecu he will test it and give you a fair review.
Or let me have one. I will do the same. I have 5 motors you can choose to test on and I would like to show everyone 420 amps!

+1. Send one to luke/liveforphysics.

 

[johnrobholmes]

I gotta agree with luke here. While it is completely possible to set up a reliable ebike with surface mount FETs, the margin for error is low and there is always a risk that the next hill will take out the controller if there is not a circuit to limit the amps or watch controller heat. Years ago I would have argued otherwise, but after being a dummy and blowing up plenty of R/C style controllers I stopped fighting against proper thermal pathways. If you want to rate the ESC for 420a burst that is acceptable, but it is impossible to run it 420a continuous. Your wires are soldered on and are much too small for such amperage!

If you want to make a nice controller for EV use, have the factory remake the power board with 3077 or 4011 FETs with proper heatsinking.

 

[brunotollot]

Hi to everybody.
This discussion is going on too long and maybe my English is not correct so I could not explain everything right. I never said that someone here says false or that everything I say is right. Certainly a RC system is not as an E bike. 400Amp in a RC are very differentthat in an E bike, A RC motor runs at max for one minute, oAn E bike can runs for hours. I've only done what a few customer asked me, to try to adapt this controller to an E bike. The result is that work. They goin around without problem and someone saud that other good controller blow, for be correct i can't say the brand. Sure noone of my clients I have a system capable of 400A, or also 300A, so I just put in the description that the controller can also be used for E bike and if in the future something happen i will change or refund the product. That all.
I hope to make the people understanding me.
My next project when i will have few time will be an E bike and I'll put on this site every step so someone will be able also to advise me.
Anyway, now I'm here so take advantage of it.

The model 300A sensored and almost ready and it works very well. With the 420A model I have a problem. Low speed perfect. Above 3000 rpm motors style 80100 or 12085 work intermittent. Any suggestions.

Thanks

Bruno

P.S. This website is dangerous. Feel to be in a court...

 

[bzhwindtalker]

This website is not dangerous. We have experts that know the stuff and we are all too educated to belive bold claims without testing. We all burned controlers.

 

[liveforphysics]

The model 300A sensored and almost ready and it works very well. With the 420A model I have a problem. Low speed perfect. Above 3000 rpm motors style 80100 or 12085 work intermittent. Any suggestions.

Thanks

Its called sync loss. As the commutation freq climbs the time interval to find sync decreases, and once it loses rotor position its difficult to re-sync while at speed. The fix is faster and higher resolution A2Ds, coupled with higher speed uControllers, OR faster more streamlined code to determine rotor position. We commonly encountered this problem when working with sensorless controllers on RC motors.

P.S. This website is dangerous. Feel to be in a court...

This place is as far removed from court as it comes. In court groups babble bullshit for a while and then make some harm causing decision based on lies and confusion.

On ES bullshit doesnt fly. We've got too many folks here with real skills and experience for courtroom type bullshit.