AGNI or ME0913

[Litium]

Hallo guys, i have a ME0913 96V brushless motor, with a Kelly KHB12401 controller, i know this motor have 10kw-30kw, but seems have a very poor start performance, with this controller start power is only about 80A at 115V, only after motor get some speed i can pull more amp, but is really not enough...
I have to put this systen in a Pitbike, complete bike weight 100kg (170kg with pilot), i know the kelly have poor performance with takeoff current, for protect the fet ecc...Slow ramp up performance..
If i have to pay 1500$ for a 800A kelly controller i want to be sure i can have the best performance for this motor..
And i cant buy Sevcon controller for BIG problem of difficult programming,price ecc...

The question is:
Is more powerful an AGNI 95R with an ALLTRAX 400A controller (or maybe Kelly brushed have better performance)
Or te ME0913 with BIG 800A Kelly is the right choice?

I know with AGNI i loose regen ecc.. But i need the best torque\power takeoff i can

Thanks to all

 

[Litium]

Mmmmm....
No opinion?

 

[Miles]

Well... you have posted this in the Electric Bicycles section..............

I'll move it to E Scooter & Motorcycle.

 

[riba2233]

You don't loose regen with agni, you only loose regen with serial wound DC motors (there are some exceptions).

 

[Litium]

Thanks Miles for put in correct section, sorry for mistake!
I read the regen with Agni is not a very good thing, because brushes wear more quicly...
But my big question is, i can have more power and starting torque with AGNI\ALLTRAX, for example, or PMAC ME0913\KElly?
I read many post of Luke (lifeforphisics) and seems him prefer ME0913 only with SEVCON controller, but if you use with ME0913\Kelly, is alot better AGNI

 

[tomaj]

I have 12601 (600A) controller with Me913 and it is the same stuff, no power at low speed
Now I went with ME1302 motor and Sevcon size6, but programming sevcon is soooo difficult I am dealing with it for 4 weeks now, with no real success

 

[Litium]

I have 12601 (600A) controller with Me913 and it is the same stuff, no power at low speed
Now I went with ME1302 motor and Sevcon size6, but programming sevcon is soooo difficult I am dealing with it for 4 weeks now, with no real success

Mmmmm....
For this reason i dont waste my money with more big kelly, i think even with 800A i cant have strong torque at startup...Kelly have a very low power startup, and after some kmh start to alive and put out power...

Sevcon is non an option for me, for difficult to program
So i think AGNI is the best choice, but wich controller?
Kelly brushed have the same problem on startup, or is better?
Alltrax is good?

 

[anttipaa]

How would me0913 work with Adaptto Max-e controller? Is it too low power for motorcycle build.

 

[Litium]

Maybe Max-e is too little, i need very big torque\power to move fast 100kg of bike...
I need 72V 400A start power, at least

 

[jonescg]

An Agni motor is a brushed DC motor - only a brushed DC motor controller will work. Altrax, Kelly, Zilla, Soliton etc are good candidates for powering an Agni. Remember that the continuous power output of an Agni motor is the number to look out for. The burst up to 60 km/h is the fun part, but you have to keep this kind of power (the so-called 30 kW) to a minimum. Keep it up for too long you will be burning it out.

I've smoked a few of them in my time, so I would definitely recommend a controller which limits your maximum amps to 300 or something.

 

[Ariane]

Litium,

I’m just curious to know why you didn’t buy a Zero FX instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

An Agni 95 R motor will kick your butt from a dead stop with an Alltrax 7245 at 72 volt and over and the correct gearing, but don’t use more than 84 volt for the Agni 95R.

John in CR Monster motors with a mid-drive set up can be you ticket for the performance and torque you need also, cheaper controller and the motor is not to expensive.

The major problem with any custom pit bike or motocross bike is “range” even if you use an ME9013 both motors eats allot of amps and you really need a power full batteries pack If you want to have some fun and adequate range, I mean a 4 Kw batteries pack and over.

As reference I put this link in this post and old project from me:

http://www.evalbum.com/2824

At the end If I have to do a project like this once again … I just bought a Zero FX with more power, better handling, more fun and the facility to program it with your cell phone.

Good day!
Black Arrow

 

[Litium]

Thanks to all for answer
For jonescg, yes i know the AGNI need brushed controller, i ask the difference about Alltrax\kelly, because i dont like how kelly put power in the motor at low speed, too weak, no torque!
And i want to know if AGNI+Alltrax gime me strong boost at low rpm
I read many things about keep not too high current on Agni, and i want to try 400A, but if you think 300A is more safe, i try this, thanks
How many km brushes can last at 74V 300A? Is long lasting at this power level?

For Black Arrow
I dont buy zero FX simply because i dont want to pay 10.000$ for go in kart track with brand new road bike
I want put Agni+Alltrax+2kw battery (i already have battery) in a old used pitbike frame, and go to play in a kart track...And this cost less than 2.000$
THe problem with hubmonster is the bigh weight on rear wheel, not good in racing application,i have to put in a mid drive, but i think is more difficult arrange flange for mounting ecc, and have the same problem of starting torque with kelly controller, i cant\want buy sevcon for have strong power in big brushless motor.
And infineon\chinese controller is not a option

 

[jonescg]

How many km brushes can last at 74V 300A? Is long lasting at this power level?

Not many. If it was only for a few seconds every minute, it would have negligible impact on the brushes. If you were riding your bike at 300 A, 72 V for half an hour, your brushes (and worse, the commutator) would probably be damaged.

THe problem with hubmonster is the bigh weight on rear wheel, not good in racing application,i have to put in a mid drive, but i think is more difficult arrange flange for mounting ecc, and have the same problem of starting torque with kelly controller, i cant\want buy sevcon for have strong power in big brushless motor.
And infineon\chinese controller is not a option

Hub motors can be managed with upgrades to the suspension, but it sounds like the bike you are putting it in probably doesn't have much scope for suspension modifications. If you are looking at single Agni performance, a brushless hub motor will give you almost everything you need and the weight of the hub will barely be noticeable.

For what it's worth, I used a Kelly controller on my first dual-Agni powered bike and it worked just fine. Too much power for the poor old Indian smoke machines, but no problems with torque from stall.

 

[Litium]

Mmmmm....from your words seems Agni is very weak and not reliable, and i don't like this
I believe at 74v 300A i can ride full day without problem, why Agni say 16kw continuous if i cant drive at this power level?
I have already a Pmac ME0913, but with a kelly 120V 600A is weak on startup, i dont feel the boos nothing...
So..
At wich power level i can drive Agni all day long?
72V 200A?

 

[jonescg]

16 kW is about 220 amps at 72 V. That sounds fairly reasonable. They are reliable if you use them at their rated power, and only briefly go to maximum power.

 

[Ariane]

Lithium,

I hope that you have already have an Agni 95R (about 1500 $ US brand new delivery to your door), an Alltrax 7245 around 500 $ US then both of them cost you already 2000 $ US.

Like I said a 2 KW battery is really a small pack for the power outputs you want do the math 300 Amps at 72 Volt = 21600 Watts about 28 HP, race at this level with a 2 KW pack and you will be able to “race” for about 10 Minutes or so… I hope that you have a swap pack or a fast charging option if you want to race again and to get some fun.

I can’t answer about the brush wear because; I have used this motocross set up for less than one year.

Good day
Black Arrow

 

[Litium]

I have to buy agni and alltrax, but i have to buy sevcon too (and i dont have skill to program it).My pack have to last 10 laps and 2kwh is enought for this application. I have 3kw charger and with nanotech lipo i can use it.My problem is not battery, but if is more powerful Agni-Alltrax or ME0913-Kelly, because i dont have other option to choose

 

[Bluefang]

Most powerfull and reliable system would be a hub-monster with a pair of Sabvoton controllers or Adaptto controllers if you have the funds for the later. Even in the hub on a 150kg bike the hub monster is a very capable motor, the brushless kelly controllers let it down tho. Do not use brushless kelly controllers unless you oversize it something shocking.

Best option is a chain drive with the hub in the frame, it works out to be very easy to mount.

 

[Litium]

Too much money and not simple system, 2 controllers ecc...
I think for my purpose AGNI\ALLTRAX is the best option...
I think if i don't stress too much Agni, like 20kw is very reliable, but i can have strong power output from a standstill

Thanks to all for opinion and answer

 

[John in CR]

How much do you weigh, and what top speed do you want? FYI, just because a hubmotor is designed for use in the wheel doesn't mean it has to be mounted there. In fact, they can't really be used to their full potential there due to the rpm limitation in wheel, and much more effective cooling than either the Mars or Agni becomes a simple matter out of the wheel with relatively easy motor mods. Motor cooling should be a primary concern when you're talking about riding on a cart track with the repetitive acceleration/deceleration. Dual controllers means just double the connections, but with my guidance it's simple. If you already have a controller, then just get another one of those, so it's far cheaper to get going and you're guaranteed double the startup power you had before. That startup power will go further too, with more torque per amp of the much lower Kv motor, though you may need to restrict the max current somewhat, but that means a more reliable controller and the greater surface area of dual controllers means they can reject more of their generated heat at lower temperature too.

 

[Litium]

The total weight of the bike is 100kg, and me 80kg, i dont like to use 2 controller, and is not so cheap too, 2 Kelly 250A cost me more than 1000 Euro, plus more cabling ecc...
If i have to pay alot of money i prefer center motor, and one controller, i know hubmonster is powerful motor, but i prefer use hub on the wheel!
And if i use hubmotor in center i have to create gear mount or something like this...not plug and play

 

[veloman]

to answer your question, agni with 400amp alltrax should launch off the line fine. I have brushed kellys and yes they suck until above 30% top speed. I wish there was a way to fix that.

 

[Litium]

to answer your question, agni with 400amp alltrax should launch off the line fine. I have brushed kellys and yes they suck until above 30% top speed. I wish there was a way to fix that.

All people with all system have problem at launch, start power, with kelly controller!
Kelly give you power only when your motor spin more fast, but if i have electric system is because i want Torque\power at 0 rpm not like gas engine only in some little rpm zone!

I think if you want powerful brushless system, you need pro-controller like sevcon, if you cant use this, is better stay in brushed zone, for big motor, because you can choose better controller!

 

[John in CR]

I think if you want powerful brushless system, you need pro-controller like sevcon, if you cant use this, is better stay in brushed zone, for big motor, because you can choose better controller!

That's why dual controllers are better than one. It's relatively easy to find 2 that add up to 1 sevcon, and still cost a lot less. "Brushed zone" yeah ok, let me know when you're ready for a simulcast race. Brushes are for hair and teeth, or cleaning your ebike powered by a brushless motor. They're a big compromise for conducting electricity. :lol: