unconventional ebike motors.

[Skyler]

The motor kit should be here in less than a week. It might be the end of the month or January though before I ride it as need brand new Headway batteries to run it.

I wont be running 50 pounds of LTO for that e bike. I need a battery pack less than half the weight or around 25 pounds maximum.
See reverse polarity in battery technology.

I still plan on building a 24V ebike with two 500W - 24V motors so I can run 12S - LTO. The reason is I will be running a 10S in series with one of my 6S LTOs for 40V. Since I can only run one of the 6S packs with the 10S my 10S pack will see twice the cycles than the two 6S packs over time.

If I run both 6S packs with a 24V controller then the cycles will be about even over time as wont be running the 10S pack all the time. I can switch back and forth from 40V to 30V. and switch to the other 6S pack every other time.

The reason is the weight. 40V = about 33 pounds and 30V around 22 pounds. It just makes sense. I do not mind riding with 50 pounds of batteries once in awhile but not all the time. I like to have lighter e bikes to ride most of the time.

50 pounds of LTO can do 20 miles. 33 pounds about 15 miles and 22 pounds up to 10 miles. It just makes sense. A 16S - 2P Headway pack will do at least 20 miles and weigh around 23 pounds. Perfect for the 2 kilowatt hub kit on my lightweight Giant Roam.

Thanks.

Skyler.

 

[Skyler]

Run that with 52.8V LIFEPO4 today. Last time I will buy a switch from the auto parts store. Was rated for 35 amps and hooked to 30 amp controller. It was a very faulty switch and was a mile away at a coinvent store and had no rear hub to rely on. No pedal chain and a slight hill to go up.

I was easy on the throttle for the front chain and it stayed on the sprockets all the way home. About a mile. I made it tighter after the first run when it almost came off last month.

It worked ok back then when assisting the rear hub , but almost came off trying it at a dead stop solo. Not this time. It stayed nice and tight and got me home.

I took a good DC breaker off an e bike I was not using and tested it for about 2 miles. The front chain works much better now. It saved me from pushing at least 1/2 mile. That is worth keeping it on as far as I am concerned.

The biggest problem I have with it is that it is the most heavy e bike I have. The front chain motor makes it way too heavy with a battery in the front basket.. If I run LTO it is even heavier but 22 pounds in the rear basket instead of 10 pounds in front.. Then the front can haul 10 or 15 pounds of cargo if needed.

Basically it is like wrestling a bear to push it up like 3 or 4 steps and a runaway train going down them.. It is kind of like a motor cycle more than an e bike..

The little 20" is easier with steps as better leverage with no front motor and smaller bike. Lower center of gravity. riding heavy batteries. The best way to ride it is remove batteries before dealing with any steps > 1 or 2.

12/11/2023. 11:16 AM.

yea. I moved the 6S - LIFEPO4 battery to the rear basket. That will help a little when moving the bike. The two 5S - LIFEPO4 packs are on either side where the 6S - LTOs could go. I can run the 10S - LTO in the rear too so now set up for both 55V -LTO and 16S - LIFEPO4. I charged with my 54.6V - 15 amp charger and got them up to around 90% quickly.

54.6V / 16 = 3.4125V. I will need a 58.8V charger to charge 22S - 55V - LTO. 58.8V / 22 = 2.67V..

I am waiting on my 2,000W black Friday hub motor kit for $138 :44 cents. It was about 20 miles away about 4 hours ago so the door bell should ring any time. I put a note up to ring it. .

Wish I could take pictures but already lost my new phone I got last month.

12 ; 01. I will have pictures un boxing. Google found my phone. I will have it later today.

12: 29 PM.

Christmas morning just happened early. I opened the end of the box and the motor is in there. The black controller has a sticker on the front. 48 to 72V and 45 amps.

Looking at a rack on the top but will be able to see the Giant and Roam sticker. I will drill two small holes for 1/4" grade 8 bolts and some pipe clamps on the bottom securing the rack to the top bar. It will just clear the seat and not cover the Roam sticker.

Weight will be about 23 pounds for 16S - 8P - 128 cells at 86 grams each.

128 * 86 = 11,008 grams to pounds is 24 pounds. About 25 with the box. That is 1/2 the weight of 55V - LTO.

I could build a 20S or 22S 66V to 72.6V pack but would then hit 30 or 35 pounds.. I would also have to buy a big expensive charger.

The Giant in the picture below has a 700c rim now. The hub motor is still in the box. I am taking my sweet time with this build and the battery rack and pack will be as small and low profile as possible. There will be no front basket.

I will use a milk crate on the rear rack for cargo but will be removable with wing nuts.. I will only use it when I need to haul cargo. I am looking for a clean professional build. . It is geared for 43 mph @ 52V - 16S - LIFEPO4. It will hit 50 mph @ 72.6V.


If I really want to go that fast I could just hook up my 6S pack in the rear basket is series with the 16S for 22S - 8P - 72.6V and charge it separately from the 16S pack with one of my 6S - LiPo chargers..

I am not sure how I will balance the 16S pack. Since it is going to take awhile to build the battery I might just order a 16S - 50 or 60 amp Bluetooth BMS next month in January.


Thanks.

Skyler.

 

[Skyler]

 

[glennb]

Battery on top of top tube? If your legs are long enough to stand over that box while stationary, your saddle is set far too low.

 

[Skyler]

Battery on top of top tube? If your legs are long enough to stand over that box while stationary, your saddle is set far too low.

I am only 5 foot 8 inches so dont really want to raise the seat. I think I can make it fit as can make the rack small enough to clear the end of the seat and still see the Roam sticker in the front.

I am going to make the 16S pack two rows of 8P. Looking at about 8 inches wide and should not be too high. Exact measurements and pictures will be posted over on my reverse polarity thread in battery technology.

I am still waiting for 140 - 26650 cells from Battery Hookup. I doubt this build will be ready to test drive until the end of January.

I Just finished building the 1,500W full suspension with the 1,000W brush front chain drive.

I also got three e bikes in the basement with flat tires and am in the process of hooking a 750 watt gear reduction motor on my friends trike.

I have a lot of projects going here and many to go. Looking at a 1,800W brushless chain for the back of the e bike I took the 750W motor off of..

Looking at a 60V - 50 amp greentime controller with LED display and 5 power modes for that. It still has a 350W Bafang on the front..

I also still have a 3,000W brushless chain with a 48 to 72V - 70 amp controller going on a 20" BMX Diamondback Cobra 20.

I am still building a dual 500W 24V chain drive for 12S - 30V LTO. That might go on a 26" Haro V3 mountain bike or a Currie ezip Trailz. Not sure which. Maybe both. LOL.

That is not all. I will be getting another dual suspension for installing the 750W gear reduction motor on the trike. A 26" Next. I said I would not build no name brand but making an exception for full suspension in brand new condition.

I also have a > $800 - 700C Italian bike I can not even pronounce the name.. It is mine but storing it at a friends house who is using it as a pedal bike until he gets his Cannondale out of the bike shop.

Thanks.

Skyler.

 

[calab]

To bad that battery housing doesnt fit up to the seat post on the top of the top tube.

This is great gear reduction and mounting of an "unconventional ebike motor"

4kW dropout mounted RC drive

I interrupted my recumbent trike build-in-progress to make an e-bike for my roommate to get to work. The two goals were maximum power to cost, and ease of operation and maintenance. I don't remember how I settled on each component. There was a lot of guessing around the power figure but I'm very...

endless-sphere.com

vs rc motor to the crank with a 10:1

My RC Mid Drive with Single Stage Reduction

I thought you guys might be interested in my RC Mid Drive conversion. I ride frequently in the hills, and I wanted to try just a bit of climbing assist without changing the character of the bike. I ran a Cyclone on and off about 7 years ago, but the benefit to downside ratio was not there, so...

endless-sphere.com

 

[glennb]

There’s not that much variation in suitable saddle height.

If your cranks are 170mm long, and bottom bracket is 300mm off the ground, you’d expect the saddle to be in the realm of 130mm higher than your standover height.

If you’re standing over that battery box, your saddle isn’t 130mm higher than it.

They’re rough numbers, but the point remains. I’d recommend raising your saddle by 50mm for starters.

 

[calab]

700C Italian bike

I hope its not have Campagnolo components, also might be an odd bottom bracket.

That seat on the Giant Roam looks to be very very large, I cant tell if theres big springs on the back or the rear rack has a rear vertical-ness. The total height of that seat looks to be quite large, vs a minimalistic height of a road saddle.

 

[Skyler]

A custom triangle rack would be a better option and more main stream for advanced ebike building but a little above my skill level.
I did rough measurements and think I can do it with enough leg room for pedal. When I finish my first 8P pack I will have total length + the wood for the box.

It will save a little weight and space to do a single box with two rows of 8 at 8P. If I can figure out how to use 1/4" plywood for the entire box it will save space.

Most or all the boxes I did so far used 1/2" or 5/8" ply. Maybe some 3/8" ;; Also screws. If I go with 1/4" screws will split the wood but might be able to use fiber glass resin and cloth and sand it on the inside seams to keep the outside dimensions smaller.

This is about space and needs to be compact. It may not be as elaborate as the build posted with the custom triangle rack , but if I can pedal it with plenty of leg room and still see the Roam sticker on the top bar and have a nice compact pack I will have achieved my goal.

I have plenty more e bikes I plan on building so not completely giving up on a triangle rack someday. I have been doing this long enough that I stop and stare at almost every bike I see to imagine how I could convert it. I look at the space in the triangle for batteries and the space behind the seat for a possible chain drive.

Also a sturdy rear rack for a possible motor or motors to mount to. I even check out the front forks and handle bars for a possible front chain drive. I would love to do a brushless chain with a LED display that would give me 5 or more power levels and be able to use a thumb throttle.

five or 10 years ago I would already slapped it together and would look ghetto and probably no brakes. Today I have a lot more time and patience and a desire to make it right with a clean professional look and fully functional brakes front and rear.

The nice thing about this build is both wheels are 700c and fit the bike. The full suspension is a 27.5" frame with a 26" rear hub and the front wheel is also 26" for better gearing with the chain and same size wheels. It makes brakes more difficult when nothing lines up though.

Basically with any chain driven motor > 3,000 rpm I look at a wheel size of 20". Maybe 24" but no bigger as custom sprockets are expensive. I might make an exception when building the dual 24V - 500W motor build.

I already have 24" wheels on the Haro V3 to accommodate it. I only have one set and still want to build the old Currie someday. Maybe I can run a large powerful belt drive motor on that. Something like a 45 kilowatt FX - 75 - 5 motor with a 400 amp 80V Sevcon controller. That is if I had one laying around..

The Currie is all steel so easy to weld steel to for reinforcement. Maybe a 250 cc dirt bike front end like the famous Death bike.
It is something that will require a professional welder to make it happen. It would not be a tinker toy for sure and any weak link would almost surely lead to total disaster especially at 90 or 100 mph.

Below pics. show up close how I made a front chain work and still have a fully functional suspension fork. It is the first one I did like that.

The others used BMX handle bars and bolted wood to them and the fork which would make a suspension fork non functional.

It is now officially a fully functional motor capable of running the e bike solo if necessary. Not just a helper moter. It passed the test yesterday when my switch to turn on the rear hub failed and it got me home.

My new sunglass camera failed to record video so no onboard camera for absolute proof but there is always Januarys budget for a working onboard camera.

I still have a power level meter which displays power , current and voltage plus average and peak values. Also a GPS speedometer app. so can then measure efficiency , top speed and hill climbing ability on all my builds present and future.

Thanks and for everyone here on ES. I wish you all a happy holiday experience.

Skyler out.

 

[Skyler]

Just un packing it now. Connections are waterproof so first time with that. It took awhile to plug in the main wire for the throttle and display. Looks like all I need except for the power wires. The 20 or 18 gauge wire for that is a bad joke for 45 amps.

I really do not want to cut the wire from the controller and solder 10 gauge wire to it even though I have some. It will totally void any possible warranty.

I need to order a new plug with 12 gauge silicone or at least 10 gauge copper. 8 gauge preferred. I also need to wire in a 60 amp inline fuse.

Does anyone know where I can order such a plug with the correct gauge wire for 45 amps continuous.

Please let me know.

OK. 1.53 mm is 1/16" That is close to 14 gauge which is 1.63 mm. I might be ok but would like an opinion on that.

I think I should order some silicone wire anyway as will be a lot easier than wiring 10 gauge copper to silicone.

Since I will need about a foot or two depending where I mount the controller I should order 16 gauge wire to solder to an 80 amp inline fuse and then to a 80 or 90 amp DC breaker. 80 would work but already found a 90 at a reasonable price.

What does anyone think ?

I would like to hear from someone on this.

12 / 12 / 1 : 05 PM.

I am not installing the battery on the top bar. 25 pounds will work fine in a rear basket. I can do a front basket for cargo and my chain and basic tools.

The 140 cells are to arrive tomorrow and I will start building the battery for it then.

Yea. I ust posted another picture. That wiring is not going to work for 45 amps. I will need another plug with heavier gauge silicone wire.. I am not hooking it up with that plug and wire and not cutting the wire from the controller.

If anyone knows where I can order a new plug with at least 14 gauge silicone wire please post a link.

Thanks.

Skyler.






.

 

[Chalo]

The 20 or 18 gauge wire for that is a bad joke for 45 amps.

Not if it's very short. Consider what "gauge" the PCB traces and FET legs are.

I need to order a new plug with 12 gauge silicone or at least 10 gauge copper. 8 gauge preferred.

Using 10ga or 8ga wire will be making a problem for yourself that you don't need to have. Use something like XT90, close to the controller and motor, and make a 12ga extension cable to join them. If you use 10ga for that, make sure it's fine stranded so it won't brutalize the leads it's plugged into.

I use SB50 plugs for all my batteries now, because they are reliable and durable. On the other hand, they're big, ugly, and kind of expensive.

 

[99t4]

There’s not that much variation in suitable saddle height.

If your cranks are 170mm long, and bottom bracket is 300mm off the ground, you’d expect the saddle to be in the realm of 130mm higher than your standover height.

If you’re standing over that battery box, your saddle isn’t 130mm higher than it.

They’re rough numbers, but the point remains. I’d recommend raising your saddle by 50mm for starters.

I understand what you're getting at (seat height adjustment for ergonomic pedaling), but OP can't/doesn't pedal.

 

[glennb]

All good then.

Sorry, I didn’t realise … apologies for the off topic.

 

[calab]

Guys, maybe its just some very light pedaling.

I did rough measurements and think I can do it with enough leg room for pedal.

Is that a Julet connector, it has the positive symbol and the negative symbol on the inside.

Does anyone know where I can order such a plug with the correct gauge wire for 45 amps continuous.

You might get the right connector or Julet connector but with the gauge of wire you want its a long shot. Those pins are only made to handle so much, but if its a copied connector then you could put some top of the line "Mil-Spec" wire in there and the weakest link is still the connector housing and its pins.

 

[Skyler]

ou might get the right connector or Julet connector but with the gauge of wire you want its a long shot. Those pins are only made to handle so much, but if its a copied connector then you could put some top of the line "Mil-Spec" wire in there and the weakest link is still the connector housing and its pins.

I figured as much. I will just do it my way. I will just cut the wire and void the warranty. I paid < $150 for the kit. I will solder two 12 gauge wires as more flexible that my 10 gauge wire.

I could just cut up a 12 foot house extension cord. . Even more flexible. If you cut the plugs off and separate the wires and strip off about 2" for each one you could double it up for four 16 gauge wires for each power wire. That should handle 45 amps continuous.

I am used to doing things like that. It gets old after awhile when I always need to resort to those tactics vs. doing it right.

Yea.

It is kind of embarrassing but will admit it.

The fact is the 20" ebike with the Unite 36V - 1,000W motor had a bulge in the tire about a week ago . I got pissed and threw it down the basement stairs.

I then switched to the 27.5" full suspension with the 1,500W rear hub and 1,000W front chain. I run 56V LIFE and then 55V - LTO.

I hit 56 kilometers an hour or 34.8 mph.. I was hauling 50 pounds battery + 50 pounds groceries. I had both throttles at all the way and assist level way max at level 5.

I only hit full throttle a minute maybe and was fun I even run the front again sols after the full throttle and still good.

but.

for over all ride and comfort all I could think was I need my 20" e bike with my 36V - 1,000W chain back.

No luck with 20"" tires. My 1,800W brushless motor had four flats in less than 18 months or so. I seem to have better luck with larger tires. The 1,800W chain hit 32.5 mph with 20S - 50V - LTO a couple years ago. It will be a good race vs the 1,500W hub.

The thing that is ridiculous is I have a 1,500W with a 1,000W chain and soon will have a 2 kilowatt 700c e bike.

To be honest though when I ride I prefer a smaller bike. 26" and 700c is way to high off the ground and heavy for all around trip. A 20" bike handles better with a heavy battery than a taller ebike..

I had a friend help me haul the bike 27.5 " dual motor beast it to the basement and fixed my little 20. I am only 5 foot 8 inches. I am just so used to that 20" bike it is ridiculous. My 20 - 1,800 watt brushless motor is my favorite though.

Everyone for about 10 years told me a hub motor rules. I have an old 20" - 800W hub with a bunch of rusty and broken spokes.

If I fix them at a bike shop I can run it on the front of the 20" e bike with my 1,800W brushless chain motor in the rear at 52 to 56V- LTO.

I still have the 3,000W brushless motor and 70 amp BOMA controller. It will be an interesting race with the new 2,000W 700c kit I just got yesterday. A 20" 3 kilowatt brushless chain vs a 700C 2 kilowatt hub.

I have drivers and will get cameras to do it.

It will be a blast.

Thanks.

Skyler.

 

[Skyler]

I just called an ebike shop about an hour or so away. The guys name is Pete and he said my power wire issue is common. He has seen it a lot. I will send it to him and he will let me know how much for the upgrade to 45 amps. Looks like maybe 15 to 20 amps for the one I got.

Looks like I may as well build the 3 kilowatt brushless motor then awhile I am waiting. Looking at 20S - 8P - 26650 LIFEPO4 cells.

Looing at about 32 pounds with hardware and the box or boxes. Not sure if I will build one or two boxes. It might be easier to balance 10S but will need two more external balancers and a pack of 5 or 6S balance plugs. I can cut the red wire off a 6S plug to make it 5S.

Since I already have the motor and controller plus the bike I just need to order the sprockets. I am not sure because the motor is packed away under a bunch of totes but am thinking it might already have an 11T - 8mm sprocket on it. All I might need is the chain and 72T wheel sprocket.

I really wanted to keep the Giant with the 2 kilowatt hub kit as light as possible but since the controller is 45 amp and can handle up to 72V I will have to compromise and go with 32 pounds for 20S instead of 16S and about 25 pounds.. It will take weeks to build a 20S - 8P battery so defiantly do not plan on building a 16S - 8P as well.

Basically a triangle case for the Giant Roam and 2 kilowatt hub kit would make a lot more sense than a rack on the top bar. It would lower the center of gravity if the bottom bar supports the battery weight instead of the top bar.

If I go with two 10S packs then one could go inside the triangle case and the other in a rear or front basket. For the 20" bike with the 3 kilowatt chain it would have a custom rack for 10S on each side like I did with the 1,500 W full suspension.

Which e bike will go faster ? Will the 3 kilowatt brushless motor smoke the 2 kilowatt hub kit. ? t has a 70 amp BOMA controller vs a 45 amp controller for the 2 kilowatt kit. Here is the gearing and power output for both motors.

The 2 kilowatt hub motor - 43 mph / 52.8V = 0.184 * 66V = 53.75 mph.

66V * 45 amps = 2,970 watts

vs.

the 60V - 3 kilowatt brushless chain, @ 66V - 3,,300W


Even though the hub motor is geared about 5 mph higher than the chain drive the chain is about 300 watts more so it should be an interesting race. Since I will only have one 66V pack I will need to run them separate and have someone with a timer clock each bike in the quarter mile. I can record top speed onboard with a GPS phone app and total power with my power, current and voltage meter.

My 140 cells just arrived from Battery Clearinghouse. I can start building cell banks now. I will need 160 but have extra cells in the basement.. They also sell packs of 15 cells for $10 each if I run short. It only takes a few days to deliver. I will show my progress over in battery technology in my reverse polarity thread.

Thanks.

Skyler out.

 

[Chalo]

Keep in mind that a motor produces zero watts of output power at its maximum rpm. Usually maximum output power is at about 50% of max rpm. Also, typical motor output is no more than about 80% of gross input power, after accounting for motor and controller losses plus harness resistance. So using a power/speed calculator but entering both maximum no-load rpm and maximum input power will give you an exciting but completely incorrect speed result.

 

[Skyler]

OK.



The Ai is not factoring in the heat loss which is 20% so 3,000W + 20% = 3,600 watts = 50 mph.

If motor and controller heat loss = 20% of input power then. 2,970 - 20% = 2,,376 watts = about 42 mph. for the 2 kilowatt hub kit. That is at 66V. It is advertised to do 43 mph @ 52.8V but highly doubt it could happen.

3,300 - 20% = 2,640W = 44 mph. for the 3 kilowatt brushless chain drive.

For the 1,500W kit I ran SOLO two months ago and with the front chain yesterday.

55V * 30 amps = 1,650 - 20% = 1,320W. = 33.5 mph.

I think I hit about 34.5 for a second or two yesterday but also had the 1,000W front chain at full throttle so 2,500W - 20% = 2,000W.

The rear 1,500W hub is supposed to go 35 mph at 52..8V. The 1,000W chain is geared for 31.5 mph so the math kind of makes sense. as the chain is geared for 48V and was getting 55V yesterday so the gearing would be closer to 34 mph.

I was also hauling about 50 extra pounds of groceries and the LTOs another 50 pounds . If my load was 100 pounds lighter I would probably got at least 35 mph. Maybe 36 mph. That is about the limit of the gearing for those motors at 55V.

One important advantage of a chain drive vs. a hub motor is when over volted , you are stuck with the gearing inside the hub motor so the greeter the voltage the more over geared it will become and eventually it can not reach the speed it is geared for plus over heating up hills. That is what will make the big difference and why the 3 kilowatt chain will smoke the 2 kilowatt hub motor.

Thanks for posting Chalo. You have been following my threads a long time now and I appreciate that and like hearing from you.


Skyler.

 

[Skyler]

I feel like a complete retard for ordering those cells. Never before have I seen such garbage. I doubt any are even salvageable.
The first 28 I tested maybe 3 or 4 were even close to 3V. At least half were either zero volts or reverse polarity. The rest between 0.5V and 1V.

I wanted them as I can salvage all the tabs with my Dremel tool to solder to. I figured it could save me a lot of time vs. building solderless packs. It was a huge mistake.

This is a tragedy. I contacted them requesting a 70% refund or replacement cells for all < 2.5V. That will be at least 70%

If the rest test like the first 28. I will know by the end of the day. I hope they message me back with intentions to rectify the SHITuation.

Ok. I got a response. I was told I will get a refund minus the shipping cost. It is a one time deal and I should have read the sold as is. I will know better next time.. I will need to order a factory built 16S LIFEPO4 pack next month.

. A 20 Ah pack usually weighs less than 20 pounds and has a 40 amp BMS. I am looking for a 45 or 50 amp BMS though as my controller on the 2 kilowatt kit is 45 amps.

I doubt I will find a factory built pack < $300 so will have to go with the 16S -1P - 10 amp Headway cells on e bay for $160 , so $200 with tax and shipping. , and I still have to build it. Also it will take up to 10 days to get the refund and I lost $30 in shipping cost.

It is only a temporary set back however. I should be able to salvage enough cells to build a 7S - 8P pack as I have almost two dozen cells left over from earlier builds.. If I can recover about 32 cells out of the 140 I got at least I can build something.

I will have to go solderless however as the tabs were not properly spot welded like before. I lost several tabs today extracting the cells. That is ok though as I have a 6S solderless pack already finished so if I can build a 7S I will have 13S - 43V for my 36V e bikes.

I wont be running the 2 kilowatt hub kit until sometime towards the middle of January. I cant order the Headway cells until January 3. At least I have something to look forwards to though.

I got the 2 kilowatt hub installed. I need an upgrade for the power wire though so have not installed the controller yet.
I have a little helper for extracting my batteries. LOL.

The first bin on the bottom with the most cells are all zero volts or reverse polarity. The one in the middle is cells > 1V and < 1.75V. The last with the least cells are >2V which I will charge and monitor for self discharge before attempting to use.


Thanks.

Skyler.