Aliexpress/Alibaba stories, good/bad?

[spinningmagnets]

I've recently been investigating Alibaba and Aliexpress. A recent poster had written that Aliexpress had an escrow policy, where the buyer posts his money to place the order, and the seller (in China) cannot access the money until the buyer verifies he has received the product, and it is just as it was advertised. (is there a re-stocking fee for refusing to accept a product when it arrives?)

If you go to one of these sites, and type "electric bicycle" into the search window, you get 2,000 vendors and thousands of products. I have recently read that a large E-bike manufacturer (like "Geoby" and others) will make a bicycle for you if you order enough units. They will make it to order, cheapest quality or high quality, everything is negotiable. Then the middle man exports them to Europe/North America, etc.

Some middle men are in it for the long haul, but there are enough scam artists that Geoby is now selling E-bikes direct to US retailers under their own name. Concerning scams, there are companies that "file for bankruptcy" once a month, and the only thing that changes is the name that's on the sign on the door.

Another sour note is that if you come up with a truly innovative product, and you get big enough that there is a cost advantage to having it made in China, the exact same assembly line that makes your product, will make extras to sell to middle men who will compete directly with you. The clones will likely be made to a cheaper level of quality, while hoping their similar appearance will fool many potential customers over the next year.

If you want to manufacture a new-style custom CroMo E-bike frame in bulk, I recommend you start with a batch from Costa Rica (PM member John in CR). High quality and affordable work, and this should give you a half-year head start before the Chinese begin copying you when they see the finished product being ridden and reviewed (all they need is a picture).

Anyways...just was hoping some of the members could respond with their experiences, length shipping times, customer service, etc...

 

[cal3thousand]

I've recently been investigating Alibaba and Aliexpress. A recent poster had written that Aliexpress had an escrow policy, where the buyer posts his money to place the order, and the seller (in China) cannot access the money until the buyer verifies he has received the product, and it is just as it was advertised. (is there a re-stocking fee for refusing to accept a product when it arrives?)

If you go to one of these sites, and type "electric bicycle" into the search window, you get 2,000 vendors and thousands of products. I have recently read that a large E-bike manufacturer (like "Geoby" and others) will make a bicycle for you if you order enough units. They will make it to order, cheapest quality or high quality, everything is negotiable. Then the middle man exports them to Europe/North America, etc.

Some middle men are in it for the long haul, but there are enough scam artists that Geoby is now selling E-bikes direct to US retailers under their own name. Concerning scams, there are companies that "file for bankruptcy" once a month, and the only thing that changes is the name that's on the sign on the door.

Another sour note is that if you come up with a truly innovative product, and you get big enough that there is a cost advantage to having it made in China, the exact same assembly line that makes your product, will make extras to sell to middle men who will compete directly with you. The clones will likely be made to a cheaper level of quality, while hoping their similar appearance will fool many potential customers over the next year.

If you want to manufacture a new-style custom CroMo E-bike frame in bulk, I recommend you start with a batch from Costa Rica (PM member John in CR). High quality and affordable work, and this should give you a half-year head start before the Chinese begin copying you when they see the finished product being ridden and reviewed (all they need is a picture).

Anyways...just was hoping some of the members could respond with their experiences, length shipping times, customer service, etc...

I have bought a few things from both Alibaba and Aliexpress with success every time. One thing that I have found are generic OBD-II and VCDS cables for VW/Audi that are SUPER cheap. Sometimes, the items take longer than others, but usually what one expects directly from China through their cheapeast post.

Ironically, the longest ship time I have experience was for a 6FET hua tong controller that took over a month. It was beyond cheap, so I wasn't worried.


Idea about your comment on the Chinese copying designs: Someone should take advantage of that. Get them to "copy" a nice ES-designed "ideal" frame and make it on the cheap for all of us.

 

[John in CR]

There are far more scammers in the US, and that's not even talking about per capita

 

[migueralliart]

I've bought plenty of things from aliexpress. I stayed away from alibaba since the usual motto there is to buy large quantities.

The trick with aliexpress is to do a good search. When your make your search filter it by number of orders and then order from a reputable vendor that has established feedback. I usually check the feedback and product purchase story.

Good Luck.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Thanks for the input. There have been several threads about designing the "perfect" E-bike frame, and it usually ends up sounding like three cooks arguing over one pot of stew. There is no single frame that will satisfy everyone, so you just have to focus on one demographic and just take the risk of being the first guy to lay down a large cash deposit.

I've scanned over a thousand ads this past week, and one design trend I saw is that...once Stromer heavily advertised their frame that has the battery in the rectangular downtube, there have been a lot of similar designs advertised. I seem to remember that the BH-eMotion downtube batteries lift off a channel that forms the bottom of the downtube, Stromer has a rectangular downtube and the battery pulls out from the side, and the Chinese designs I'm seeing have the battery pull out of the bottom of the rectangular tube.



Also a crap-ton of small folding E-bikes, that I haven't really seen many of in the US. But...in China there are also several million of the E-scooters that have pedals and are legally "bicycles" there.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

All of the major ebike suppliers have clones out there. Chinese manufactures steal the patent because an American patent in China is worthless.

Anyone else get bombarded with emails from Chinese suppliers?? I do.

 

[Bike Xing]

I've purchased motors, transmission parts, etc. through Alibaba. The vendors have been willing to make custom versions and even though they might have a "minimum" order of 50 (or whatever) you can often request smaller sample orders to review quality and do testing with, though you will pay more for those items.
I probably wouldn't make a big order without first reviewing samples to evaluate.
The vendors I've worked with were all very responsive at the beginning. Drawing iterations go quickly until an agreement is made. Then it can take some time to get parts, even air freighted stuff has taken months.

I've also worked with representatives based in China that I've visited and met. I paid for those services and don't think the resulting product was any better than what I could find through Alibaba. Alibaba vendors managed customs documentation better.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Thanks for that info. Today I found an E-bike on Aliexpress that was almost an exact copy of the A2B Metro.

 

[migueralliart]

Thanks for that info. Today I found an E-bike on Aliexpress that was almost an exact copy of the A2B Metro.

Yup unfortunately some of the companies in the US like prodeco tech as well manufacture their ebike in China this just opens the doors for them Chinese factories to steal the designs and sell them. Same goes for montague bikes as I've purchased several "hummer" frames with the same montague dimensions.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Chinese honor the American patent system...because sometimes the patent description makes creating counterfeits easier :wink: .

Their licensing system, seems to mean that anyone can produce anything that they want...as long as they are willing to pay a licensing fee. So...everything is more like a franchise, except unlike McDonalds, you can make a soy burger and pretend it is a Big Mac, or any other substandard product, and pretend it is the real thing.

 

[TheBeastie]

Yeah their software system seems to just as smart as eBay and amazon, I have searched for cassette motor hubs and now I get emails about some mystery 500w geared cassette motors every few days.
http://szxfmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/638683876-213690334/Big_power_Hub_Motor_500W_cassette_Rear_use.html?tracelog=cgsotherproduct1
This guys picture saps my confidence since he's called Mr Sheng but he's a white cucasion guy picture

At the end of the day I think you gotta do some due diligence and just have a punt on a small order see how you go.

My dad got a good deal on some used tractors from Japan right after the Fukushima disaster, getting them through customs was hell but it worked out in the end.

 

[shenzhen_ex]

I am building my entire e Bike, piece by piece, from Alibaba Group on-line purchases made within China. The buyer protection that you mentioned is a feature of Alipay. It will automatically pay the seller 2 weeks after I sign for (accept delivery of) the goods unless I file an objection first . Luckily I have never had the need to file an objection. Alipay won't pay the seller if I did not sign for (accept deliver of) the goods. So I won't sign for it unless it is what I expected.

I usually use TaoBao which is Alibaba Group's consumer to consumer site.

 

[d8veh]

Yeah their software system seems to just as smart as eBay and amazon, I have searched for cassette motor hubs and now I get emails about some mystery 500w geared cassette motors every few days.
http://szxfmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/638683876-213690334/Big_power_Hub_Motor_500W_cassette_Rear_use.html?tracelog=cgsotherproduct1
This guys picture saps my confidence since he's called Mr Sheng but he's a white cucasion guy picture

At the end of the day I think you gotta do some due diligence and just have a punt on a small order see how you go.

My dad got a good deal on some used tractors from Japan right after the Fukushima disaster, getting them through customs was hell but it worked out in the end.

No mystery about it: That's a Xofo motor. Colin Sheng works for them and I met him at the Shanghai show. They're a proper reputable company that makes, amongst other things, licenced copies of Bafang motors. That particular one is a copy of the 500w Bafang CST. I ordered one from him and so far it's been very good. The price was much less than a the Bafang from BMSBattery. The controller, display and wiring are also very good, so the whole kit is a good option.

I also met Kevin Fang, who advertises under the name of BTN (back to nature). He also seems to be reputable as well.

 

[t3sla]

Thanks for that info. Today I found an E-bike on Aliexpress that was almost an exact copy of the A2B Metro.

Spoke with them at CC, cool people they too love the A2B and were moved to ''DMC-12'' the situation
Which is kinda awkward now that A2B is back business now...

For the greater part china isn't actively copying, it's more pressure from westerners rather than active pursuit (changes as you go further south)
The best way I could describe the culture is 'creative commons', there's a general ethos about it being a pool of inspiration (might stem from old china)
Overall it's a bunch of very hard working people in a very cut throat sector that thrives on volume.
The industries main focus is still domestic, international sales is additional revenue.
Alibaba/etc is usually middle-men that place orders with these bigger producers, so it looksn the same because it's all from the same place (think phone carrier re-sellers, same phone network just different.....?)

Do you want to know why so many batteries look the same?
-There are three major case manufactures in china, they just make shell casings.
-Two-hundred or so cell makers that vary from 'time bomb to Japanese levels of production QC (if you've ever bought fresh fruit in japan you know)
From this point of it's exponential, like a firework exploding (so many options to discuss)

 

[shenzhen_ex]

.....Do you want to know why so many batteries look the same?
-There are three major case manufactures in china, they just make shell casings.
-Two-hundred or so cell makers that vary from 'time bomb to Japanese levels of production QC.....

I'm about to buy a battery on TaoBao. Its basically the only item for my build that I have not purchased yet.

Do you have a recommendation for a battery vendor in Mainland China, with the type of High-QC you mentioned?
As of now i am planning on purchasing a new A123 48v 20AH battery pack from the link below. http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.w1031-305427460.13.LhbTUa&id=18180355310

 

[t3sla]

I like how modular this one is, will order one for review (the RC form factory is cool)
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1.w1004-305427437.6.XKwNzf&id=15777963548

For high powered I have no specific builder recommendations (but cell_man is reputable seller and is worth the extra few dollars)
I think 22650 LiFe cells would be the best as they're high power and quality, but there is now some high C rated NMC cells which can compete.

My ideal battery is modular, headway came close

 

[USAEBIKECO]

WOW I found this while looking at ali express. Couldn't believe it !!

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/48-V...KE-BICYCLE-EBIKE-LiNMC-Lifepo4/704054421.html

They are trying to copy our MT-6 ebike. I have no idea how long that bike has been on their website. We have had ZERO interactions or business with ali express so I don't know how well they would be at copying our ebike. They email us all the time with " opportunities". We just ignore their emails.

Unfortunately for them we don't ship our bikes to China, and our ebikes have proprietary technology it would be kinda hard to back engineer. We are a small company an I am shocked they would try and copy us. Are they getting desperate?

 

[migueralliart]

WOW I found this while looking at ali express. Couldn't believe it !!

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/48-V...KE-BICYCLE-EBIKE-LiNMC-Lifepo4/704054421.html

They are trying to copy our MT-6 ebike. I have no idea how long that bike has been on their website. We have had ZERO interactions or business with ali express so I don't know how well they would be at copying our ebike. They email us all the time with " opportunities". We just ignore their emails.

Unfortunately for them we don't ship our bikes to China, and our ebikes have proprietary technology it would be kinda hard to back engineer. We are a small company an I am shocked they would try and copy us. Are they getting desperate?

now that surprises me. WTF?

 

[spinningmagnets]

Once there was a pic I wanted to link to, so I could use it to help explain something and a perfect pic makes it easy. The site wouldn't allow me to link, and a friend told me how to do a sceen-capture (screencap), so now...if there's a pic on the internet, anyone can "borrow" the pic and claim it as their own. That seems to be the main reason for the annoying watermarks across the pictures now.

A wholesale exporter can spec parts from several different suppliers (a "similar" frame/hub-kit/trunk) and just bundle them, leaving the retailer at the other end to assemble the parts. All they need is a pic, and the idea that what they see has appeal enough to be worth copying.

If anyone is serious about developing a product for the E-bike market, I wouldn't post it until you are already selling them, in order to give yourself a head-start. Advertising that the warehouse is inside the USA and having some type of good customer-service feedback is vital to a new small company.

 

[Ch00paKabrA]

I love Aliexpress. I have not ordered anything from Alibaba yet (I know they are the same) because of the high minimums.

For my just recently finished build, I have ordered from Aliepress, the motor, controller, and throttle. All arrived in a decent amount of time and are performing well. from ebay I got, spokes, batteries and disc brake conversion stuff, 5" riser handlebars, seat, rack, etc.

So far, so good. I even picked up an extra set of gears for the hub motor since they were cheap and the manufacturer pretty much stated that they are the part that wears out the fastest.

I have had good communication with all vendors that I used on Aliexpress as well. I must give them a good review.

good luck

 

[Hyena]

our ebikes have proprietary technology it would be kinda hard to back engineer

Are they your pictures they copied or just the text ?
The text is obviously a straight copy, which is funny because they also copied the part where you are talking about competitors from china :lol:
But the pics are hardly anything unique. It looks like every other standard conversion on a $100 department store mountain bike complete with the cheap bag and straps they supply with your typical cheap ebay conversion kit. The colour of the rims doesn't even match. Typical of most ebay and alibaba type adds. On that note though the chinese have been copying pics from here and elsewhere for along time. I've seen pics of my bikes and those of other members here. Some even show pics of the stealth bikes which dont even use their brand motors! Some are even more obviously lifted from here as they have the glitches at the top or bottom of the image from when we lost one of the servers a year or 2 back and many of the images got corrupt.

Aliexpress is somewhat safe and I've bought things there a number of times. As mentioned your're paying through an intermediary so the sellers dont receive payment until you confirm delivery. There are still some dodgy people on there, but not as many as alibaba. Basically if you see any brand name stuff it's not legit. Knock offs, sure, but if they advertise actual A2Bs or stealth bombers or any other known brands (eg dewalt drills) then they're a scam. I've bookmarked a few in the past only to see the company disappear a week later and then reappear as someone else. If the price is too good to be true then it usually is.