anyone going tubeless?

[Lurkin]

The weakest link of commuting by bike, are the tires.

I experimented with tubeless tires last year after getting a few pinch flats when taking aggressive turns.

I used Stan's no tube kits and had an annoying issue with leakage. Once a week or so I would have to top up my tires because they would be down to around 20 psi, seriously affecting my efficiency. My flats didn’t go away either. My tires are magnets for staples and small nails.

I have ultimately gone back to tubes using these thick mofos http://www.amazon.com/Kenda-Downhill-Bicycle-Tube-Schrader/dp/B00IFV7TJG .

I don’t have a problem with pinch flats. My tires don’t seep air, and if I do manage to pick up a nail it’s usually just a slow leak. Except for that one time I picked up a 2” deck screw.

I have used tubeless mountain biking and I definitely see the appeal of the weight savings and lower pressures, without the worry of snake biting your tubes. For daily commuting and road use, especially on an ebike. Good heavy duty tubes are my choice.

"Snake biting" and pinch flats are the same thing. Neither are caused by either tubeless or tubed. Both are caused by too lower pressure allowing the rim to 'bite' or 'pinch' between the road/surface and rim into either the tyre or tube, whichever is holding the air and pierce it, creating a puncture. The 'snake bite' pattern is when the bite/pinch has occured with both sides of the rim, creating a parallel set of holes.

Either way, its caused by the user not the pressure system.

If you are having problems with punctures, its a reflection of where you are commuting as the protection of your tyre/liner/tube must be sufficient to prevent puncturing. I.e. you need a puncture protected or thicker tyre and/or tyre liner and/or thicker tube and/or sealant. They are all offerings to solve this issue, although there is debate as to their effectiveness/ peoples preferences. I've always thought it was better to protect the tube via thicker tyres or tyre liners than going for thicker tubes, but if it works for you, I'd stick with it. 8)

 

[Lurkin]

Tubeless myth destruction...
No compressor...nothing but a floor pump....tubeless tires do mount quite easily although snugger. UST is easier than wire bead downhill tires.
Even with wire bead downhill tires...quality rims seal very nicely....I never even use levers.
A crappy thin wall rim will have a very shallow channel, and those are awful for mounting any tire.
A GOOD rim, with a deep channel, will let you muscle them on by hand...good technique helps.
My favorite rims...
Mavic 819, 821, 823...among the strongest and most durable rims too, due to the spoke holes not being drilled through both layers of the rim.
Stan's Flow...light, wide and can take a 15 foot drop...
ENVE...spendy, but worth it if your wallet doesn't explode....so stiff and solid, most direct contact I've felt with the trail.

I have used all of these rims WITHOUT sealant, and UST rated tires.
They all rode perfect, maybe needed a couple pumps once a week.
Sealant is a backup measure...it is not necessary.
Compressors are cool...but not necessary.
Some folks avoid technology...but that's not necessary....especially here.
Some folks express fear and hate when encountering something that they don't understand...very very unnecessary.

(real world experience from an xxxtreme MTB poseur)

I assume I am one of the "some folks", given I have written in this thread and disagree that tubeless is superior in all cases. I find it curious that you are implying that because I don't agree with the necessity of tubeless for ordinary commute purposes I don't understand the point of tubeless and want to avoid technology.

I'll make it very clear for you. I perfectly understand the point of tubeless, how it works and that you have successfully pulled it off without using sealant. Realise that's not the norm. It's common to use sealant and/or fillers with tubeless. They are referenced by others in this very thread for that very reason.

I doubt anyone else on here doesn't understand it either or wants to avoid technology. The responses you have had have been to the point and it's on a forum virtually celebrating electric vehicle technology....

I've provided you with a perfectly good reason as to why there is distinct advantage to using a tube, primarily being the inability to replace a spoke without having to remove tighter than usual fitting tyres [and deal with goo]. It's new information to me that it can be done without sealant and that must mean in order for it to hold the tyre fitment must be pretty tight. Again, it's less convenient to the average commuter, but probably totally required for someone zipping DH.

Back in the day I used ride DH as well... until I cottoned on that I usually broke either the bike or me :lol: We used lower pressures but I can't remember what they were. I don't recall problems with tubes really... it was pretty rare to get a puncture. From the responses in this thread it seems to be more used by people mistakenly thinking its a way to avoid punctures than just a different means of repairing them...

 

[Leebolectric]

not you man, i enjoy your posts.

I agree with your points, and posted similar things in the thread earlier.
I agree it's not for the average rider or maintenance friendly...it's for those who CAN use it for an advantage.
My point was that there IS a REAL advantage in certain circumstances, and writing me off as "poseur" for appreciating those uses sucks.

If someone doesn't want to use a product...word....but be aware others may actually ride in a way that has real benefits. :wink:

 

[Punx0r]

I like how DH tubes hold air well for long periods. If I had to top up tyre pressure once a week on a tubeless setup I would quickly tire of it. Priorities vary though: I understand and appreciate that serious riders are happy to spend time tweaking and prepping their bike before a planned weekend ride and then clean and polish it afterwards. In that context a bit of air in the tyres isn't an issue.

 

[Lurkin]

not you man, i enjoy your posts.

Awwwwwwwww :lol: Goodo.

I like how DH tubes hold air well for long periods. If I had to top up tyre pressure once a week on a tubeless setup....

That's an interesting point. I've found the tubes I've been using (just the usual rubber? ones, not latex or anything) deflate depend on temperature. During the day, whatever bike I've used to commute is left in an unairconditioned warehouse. If the temp gets >25 degrees, there's usually a little decrease in pressure over a couple of days, >35 degrees notable, >40 degrees requires pumping....

Leebolectric, any ideas on how your tubeless setup fairs in these temps?

 

[Leebolectric]

If I set the pressure indoors before a ride, and it's very cold outside I notice a 3-5lb decrease in pressure.
I feel it's more from gasses contracting and expanding due to temperature changes than leakage.
I'm 200lbs with gear, running 28psi rear 24psi front, riding hard offroad on 2.3-2.5 tires.

I set pressures before every good ride as part of my basic ritual, I don't like surprises on the trail so I do lots of tweaking preride.
Nothing is more frustrating to me than a malfunction on the trail that could have been avoided with forethought.

"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert M. Pirsig is an amazing book.
There is a beautiful tranquility between a man and a machine, a pathway to the "Now".
Wrenching is peace to me, where all things are solvable with thoughtfulness, and frustrations dissolve.

“In a car you're always in a compartment, and because you're used to it you don't realize that through that car window everything you see is just more TV. You're a passive observer and it is all moving by you boringly in a frame.
On a cycle the frame is gone. You're completely in contact with it all. You're in the scene, not just watching it anymore, and the sense of presence is overwhelming.”
― Robert M. Pirsig
“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig
“The real cycle you're working on is a cycle called yourself.”
― Robert M. Pirsig

 

[nutnspecial]

Like the quotes, like the attitude.

Yes lurkin, gasses expand and contract with temperature.

Imo this thread has been a mess because some pro tube commentors rely on bias but lack knowledge, understanding, and objectivity. Appears the use of shaded disingenuousness and obtusiveness is also being used as a crutch. It quickly becomes a mockery of logic and common sense.

 

[Lurkin]

Meanwhile, other forces are also at work as the temperature rises. Tyres and tubes both become more pliable and allow greater strech lowering pressure (which may or may not affect pressure change between tubed and tubeless), metal also expands with heat enlarging the rim? (as both spoke tension and inflated tyres pressure inward, I wonder if there is a notable difference between tubed and tubed)..........

Its the internet, welcome to being off topic 8)

 

[Chalo]

The whole pinch flat issue, as it relates to tubeless tires, is a red herring. By the time you're getting pinch flats, you're also bashing flat spots in your rims. So tubeless tires can't really help overall, even if they keep an insufficient amount of air pressure in your tires temporarily. It's all irrelevant if you're smashing your wheels to junk. Adequate pressure prevents problems whether you have tubes or not.

 

[Punx0r]

Lurkin, an increase in temperature after setting a tyre pressure will increase the pressure (hence you're supposed to set your car tyre pressures cold, since they warm up when driven). The reason the pressure increases is because the gas molecules have more energy (so their volume wants to increase), but this also means they have more energy to pass through the semi-porous rubber and escape to atmosphere. Thicker rubber is less porous.

 

[nutnspecial]

Pinch flats: I have a dozen old tubes and one still good rim while running 45psi+ that disagrees with you chalo. And that's besides the general concensus saying the same thing. So I hope you're not comparing the ease of piercing a tube with a sidewall from pinches.

tubeless tires can't really help overall

Yes, maybe so if you're 'smashing your wheels into junk'. But that's a little obtuse don't ya think? Of course there's a limit, like running into an underpass at 60mph. Reasonable causes? Beg differ.

So what can't they 'help' with 'overall'. Stop playin around- be specific. Bullet points.
Pinch flats?
Spun stems?
Weight?
Traction?
Ride comfort?

I already stated my opinion. So did others. I think we agree with drawbacks but that they are superior for traction, comfort, pinches, and spun stems under demanding conditions. They also have different characteristics in getting and fixing flats that could be pro or con. Those conditions may or may not include trail riding, commuting, skydiving, and baking a cake outside in a sandstorm.

 

[Lurkin]

The reason the pressure increases is because the gas molecules have more energy (so their volume wants to increase), but this also means they have more energy to pass through the semi-porous rubber and escape to atmosphere. Thicker rubber is less porous.

I had suspected this was the case. I discovered this porous effect when using tubes for waterproofing, can't remember what I was doing but had a road tube streched - the water eventually made it through. The tube on the commute bike is reasonably thick, the only other leak point is the valve... with the dodgyness of mine, totally possible it could be.

 

[Chalo]

Pinch flats: I have a dozen old tubes and one still good rim while running 45psi+ that disagrees with you chalo.

Likewise I have serviced wheels that were flat spotted on curbs or potholes without pinching the tube, because there was enough pressure in the tires. Neither phenomenon changes the fact that the easiest way to dent your rims is to bottom out the tires. And running pressures so low that you'd get pinch flats if you had tubes equals bottoming the tires.

The answer to the problem is fatter tires, not filling your tires with cottage cheese and bumping your rims on the ground.

 

[macribs]

And may I add in, taller side walls on the tires will help against pinch flats as well. If you go taller side walls, you might even get away with a little less PSI then you usually need. Because extra height and often more stiffness in the tire wall.

 

[nutnspecial]

Chalo, best I can tell, is you find pinches irrelevant. That's fine. Care to do everybody here a service and just list where they fail or win? put your cards on the table and put this to bed

For mtn bikes and tubeless tires and rims, I say win:
pinches
traction
ride quality
rolling resistance
puncture flats
durability
spun stems
weight
fixing flats with plugs or sealant

fail:
price
tire changes
maintenance
chalo doesn't approve

Ps, yup macribs, taller thicker sidewall and proper rim/tire width correlation all decrease pinches for tubes. also having a crapload of air, like chalo said.

 

[Lurkin]

Its been pretty clear in this thread that tubeless/tubed preferences are based on what people are actually doing with the bike that they are on. Its not as simple as saying "tubeless on mountain bikes is superior for these reasons, in all cases"... I use a mountain bike for commuting.... meh.

Its more like, tubeless/tubed is superior in these circumstances... DH, light off-road, commuting (mostly road) etc. etc. Also need to define if you are discussing tubeless without sealant, tubeless with sealant and tubed because the pros and cons are different.

 

[nutnspecial]

I'm commenting on straitup tubeless purposed rims and tires and listing what I believe to be their pro/con over similarly used tubed tires. This means generally all current uses of mtn bike tires. DH FR XC AM trail, commute. The pro/con won't change, but vary by degree for application.

Benefits and drawbacks should be factual, then user can decide what's best for them based on circumstance.

For me, tubeless mtn bike tires aren't currently 'worth it', but I've done some research and recognize their benefits. The trick then is to weigh degrees of benefit/drawback pertinent to user.

Just like arguing over hydrogen filled car tires- Chalo would have someting ridiculous, rude, and/or incendiary to say, then go on for pages arguing if you let him, without ever even defining an argument.
Facts: Hydrogen is better. But hydrogen still isn't worth it for the majority.

Maybe tubeless isn't worth it for the majory either, but unlike hydrogen in car tires (afaik), there's room for advancement in all current benefits and drawbacks.

 

[Punx0r]

Just like arguing over hydrogen filled car tires- Chalo would have someting ridiculous, rude, and/or incendiary to say, then go on for pages arguing if you let him, without ever even defining an argument.
Facts: Hydrogen is better. But hydrogen still isn't worth it for the majority.

Quoted for public record.

 

[nutnspecial]

How appropriate, seeing you seem to have issues with troublemaking yourself

Ref. -your troublemaking in two other threads in the past three days-

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=62745&start=500 Acting dickish to me
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75760 Acting dickish to an op
. . . . . you still didn't try the challenge huh?

 

[Brentis]

Just like arguing over hydrogen filled car tires- Chalo would have someting ridiculous, rude, and/or incendiary to say, then go on for pages arguing if you let him, without ever even defining an argument.
Facts: Hydrogen is better. But hydrogen still isn't worth it for the majority.

Quoted for public record.

I think what he is referring to is your use of hydrogen
I hope that was just a brain fart and you meant nitrogen!

Weak jab at Chalo by the way. Feeling a lil butt hurt lately are you?
Your frustrations are coming out in more and more posts.
All the best.

 

[macribs]

Pls folks try to keep things civil. Should be no need to start gunning for each other, ES is not that kind of forum.
A little respect goes a long way.

We all have our preferences and sometimes it is easy to be more then a little carried away explaining why we feel our point of references should be consensus. If people like one thing over the other, it is all fine and dandy. I am sure their reason for choosing different then me are just as valid as to why I choose different then them. It is all about personal choice. We are free to do what we please, even if we sometimes make choices other do not get.

 

[nutnspecial]

*Screw it, rather than editing my post to hell I'll just redo.

Thanks macribs, thanks brentis for the correction! Kinda funny really- 'hydrogen' Here we go, I tried to simplify.

Straight up tubeless purposed rims/tires and a listing of what I find to be their pro/con over similarly used tubed tires. This means generally all current uses of mtn bike tires. DH FR XC AM trail, commute.
Road bikes (skinny tires) and heavy hubmotors should be considered for 2 additional categories.

win:
pinches
traction
ride quality
rolling resistance
puncture flats
durability
spun stems
weight
flat failure mode
pluggable

fail:
price
tire changes
maintenance
selection

For me, tubeless mtn bike tires aren't currently 'worth it', simply because of price and higher maintenance. The higher performance would work well for me though, with 1/2 road/offroad and a middrive midweight bike.