are 18650 safe overchrged from 4,2V to 5,0V?

[batteryGOLD]

So you are saying that you work for a company that is in competition with LFP?

Hi Sir, our team don'T need to be on competition. Our work proves to be successful! 99% customers are happy and other 1% are small issues or a "complicated customer"

For moments I got confused about LFP meaning.. I searched google and got result "The lithium iron phosphate battery (LFP (lithium ferro-phosphate), or Li-IP) is a type of lithium-ion battery using lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4)"
Soo U're talkin about LiFe batteries and competition!

As a professional, our team handled more than 2k batteries, and guess? about 99% lithium and the other 1% are LiFePO4..
soo there is a tendency at market to go on regular lithium instead of LiFe.. but we don't know why..
LiFe are better, safer, a lot more cycles , more current output, super fast charge exmple 10min check A123. Buttt seems the market is not going to make it standard as soon..

I think that LiFe is amazing solution, but cons are up to x2-x3 size to get same capacity as lithium, x2 to x3 initial price investment compared to normal Lithium (at long time LiFe save x3 money, but if u PAY x3 time more at beginning and have three times more life span, it's racio is similar to buy three lithium batteries for same propose..just sayin. more pollution..)
Normal Lithium applies to most customers because lower initial investment. do you prefer to pay at front 1000eur + taxes, or your prefere to pay 3 times 333eur+ tax(and save 1 eur less taxes) over 10years or more period?

I like LiFe technology, are very safe (lithium goes easy on fire but LiFe are stable to many aggressive tests ) but it could need more development to increase energy density, and lower the cost to half. maybe in some years from now it become reality ..
(at a near future), the LiPo and new 4680 elon musK cells(patented, 100yrs life time says musk..) those could rule tha world!
musk humor

five times energy, six times power.. seems a Duracell old school advertise
is there Lithium Polymers LiPo cells at 18650 format? (conspiracy)
but also believe in hydrogen cells

 

[batteryGOLD]

I've done paint art work w/ mouse edit at that musk advertise.. no comments

 

[amberwolf]

For moments I got confused about LFP meaning.. I searched google and got result "The lithium iron phosphate battery (LFP (lithium ferro-phosphate), or Li-IP) is a type of lithium-ion battery using lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4)"
Soo U're talkin about LiFe batteries and competition!

No, LFP is LiveForPhysics, the previously mentioned ES member that does battery testing.

 

[Hillhater]

As a professional, our team handled more than 2k batteries, and guess? about 99% lithium and the other 1% are LiFePO4..
soo there is a tendency at market to go on regular lithium instead of LiFe.. but we don't know why..
LiFe are better, safer, a lot more cycles , more current output, super fast charge exmple 10min check A123. Buttt seems the market is not going to make it standard as soon..

I think that LiFe is amazing solution, but cons are up to x2-x3 size to get same capacity as lithium, x2 to x3 initial price investment compared to normal Lithium (at long time LiFe save x3 money, but if u PAY x3 time more at beginning and have three times more life span, it's racio is similar to buy three lithium batteries for same propose..just sayin. more pollution..)
Normal Lithium applies to most customers because lower initial investment. do you prefer to pay at front 1000eur + taxes, or your prefere to pay 3 times 333eur+ tax(and save 1 eur less taxes) over 10years or more period?

I like LiFe technology, are very safe (lithium goes easy on fire but LiFe are stable to many aggressive tests ) but it could need more development to increase energy density, and lower the cost to half. maybe in some years from now it become reality ..
(at a near future), the LiPo and new 4680 elon musK cells(patented, 100yrs life time says musk..) those could rule tha world! …………

… “As a professional…”……you do not seem to understand the subject well at all !

 

[batteryGOLD]

maybe I didnt understood the subject at all, but my message stays for info purposes..
Thanks for your time.

 

[Hillhater]

Please let us know once you have test data to verify the +20% capacity at 4.6v
Keep safe and have a good 2023.

 

[eMark]

are 18650 safe overchrged from 4,2V to 5,0V?
To begin with that's about as ridiculous a question (JMO) as has ever been posted.

Please let us know once you have test data to verify the +20% capacity at 4.6v
Keep safe and have a good 2023.

So -- assume we all agree that charging to 5.0V is NOT safe, but charging to 4.6V may be safe ???

 

[Hillhater]

So -- assume we all agree that charging to 5.0V is NOT safe, but charging to 4.6V may be safe ???

.. No, .. assume he has no data to show a 20% capacity gain.
It is called…” sarcasm “ :wink:

 

[eMark]

So -- assume we all agree that charging to 5.0V is NOT safe, but charging to 4.6V may be safe ???

.. No, .. assume he has no data to show a 20% capacity gain.
It is called…” sarcasm “ :wink:

Perhaps his intention all along was "sarcasm" ... "are 18650 safe overchrged from 4,2V to 5,0V?"

Hi there people! HAPPY NEW YEAR to all
I went into holidays to avoid this topic..

Just to make things clear I never charge any battery cell array above 4,2V limit, as described on cells datasheet. a rule is to follow datasheet specs.

HAPPY 2023

 

[larsb]

Is the thread ready for the dumpster now.. Please?

 

[batteryGOLD]

Hi there people! Great 2023
Sorry to disappear some days.. remembers me Battery Doctor, He is disappeared since about 1month at this forum.. But He keepps posting videos at his channel! Where are U BDoctor?! We need U at this Forum. Thanks!

Anyway I did not had permission from boss to do danger experiments overcharging to 4.6V. He told me, forget those crazy experiments and just to tha work! He said U don't need to think, just do tha work processes..

Anyway. I'm doing some homework and I have picture to post.. I'm on testing for 2hundred of those SAMSUNG 30Q, and about 20% of cells are voltage leaking. This is serious problem at 30Q, maybe 30% of SAMSUNG cell at market have this issue.. just sayin.. This x200cells power a 12kW ebike 150A peak demand in a 9P configuration 21S
some S blocks have just one leak cell and other 8P are OK
about 20% SAMSUNG 30Q have this factory issue, and doin some math, soo I have around 200cells 30Q , 20% of 200 equals 40cells are black sheeps.. lucky I found those. over 1month timeframe, some just leak voltage after 3weeks.. tha SAMSUNG 30Q are somehow crazy..

by tha way, the icharger is special version and have laser video projection on table :thumb:

 

[liveforphysics]

are 18650 safe overchrged from 4,2V to 5,0V?
To begin with that's about as ridiculous a question (JMO) as has ever been posted.

Please let us know once you have test data to verify the +20% capacity at 4.6v
Keep safe and have a good 2023.

So -- assume we all agree that charging to 5.0V is NOT safe, but charging to 4.6V may be safe ???

Definitely not safe, even if you do it once or twice and don't experience immediate thermal runaway. It would be something to do of your need to win an event or something is worth throwing away the pack after a single cycle, as it will be end of life conditon degraded after. It's also not safe even the first time trying to charge, even if your tried it as the cell level many times, it would only take one weak area of SEI formation anywhere to enter thermal runaway on a first use up to 4.6v.

Some cells are made with high voltage cathodes and electrolyte, but they rarely are made outside the cellphone/laptop sized cell range due to the high Cobalt fraction and $$$ Fluorine passivated electrolytes.

 

[batteryGOLD]

Last picture at lab work
sorry 16:9 picture format, most people like 9:16 (google source "60%people see web content at mobile smartphone", and soo use 9:16 video format.. BDoctor knows all those video edit tricks )



Battery original shape, w/ glue & driving simulation mechanical forces applied to battery including shocks and vibration (no separators, just glue).. (Prodigy FireStarter.. )

 

[batteryGOLD]

check this printscreen w/ some MS Paint art work (w/ mouse)..
I was checking at post views, and that happened! is there any coincidence or dejavu?

 

[john61ct]

So many cumulative wasted minutes we'll never get back.

Yes I know the Ignore function is the solution, will do that, but kept hoping some useful scraps would come along.

 

[ZeroEm]

Views up to 706.

 

[The Battery Doctor]

Overcharging does not emediatelly lead to fire, it also takes time, if you leave it on for 12-24H you are sure to see fireworks, especielly if the heat builds up. Looks you are using panasonic cells and they can take alot.

 

[liveforphysics]

Overcharging does not emediatelly lead to fire, it also takes time, if you leave it on for 12-24H you are sure to see fireworks, especielly if the heat builds up. Looks you are using panasonic cells and they can take alot.

This is definitely not true in any aspects of it.

In overcharge, the cell often goes from just a few degrees over ambient into plasma runaway. It also happens as a knife edge at the instant the overcharge over lithiation and voltage stress breakdown the SEI at its weakest location.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

Looks you are using panasonic cells and they can take alot.

U have evidence?



All chemistries seem to put out the same smoke. It seems a huge amount. How dangerous and polluting is it?

This convo scares me. I use lifepo4.

 

[liveforphysics]

Looks you are using panasonic cells and they can take alot.

U have evidence?



All chemistries seem to put out the same smoke. It seems a huge amount. How dangerous and polluting is it?

This convo scares me. I use lifepo4.

Don't breathe it. Too many partially decomposed organics and F/HF ion radicals to scar your lungs. Manganese also is toxic, and lithium impacts your brain function in non-reversable ways.

 

[batteryGOLD]

Hi there, hope U'r having a nice weekend
by tha way, welcome back Battery Doctor

Soo, I have some data results at SAMSUNG 30Q --> not Panasonic!
Maybe a waste of many minutes just to get some real practical data

Samsung 30Q NEW cells capacity measured: about 2900mAh @ 5A discharge aprox 15mOhms IR (max temp at test 42 Celsius)
Samsung used at one wheel 2yrs old 8k miles : aprox 2500mAh and about 18mOhm IR (max temp at test 51 Celsius)
Samsung x200 30Q from 12KW ebike battery, IR aprox 20mOhm and one cell is at 24mOhm (capacity not tested yet, and about 20%(x40 cells) voltage leak cells-->those are trash)

BuT I have a picture of a parallel block sample of that battery dicharge test. it put out 23Ah and about 3mOhm 9P IR (@23A discharge initial and last 20%capacity discharge @12A rate 01h03min total time discharge down to 2,7V limit cut)
doin some math, if one new 30Q has 2900mAh, so 9P should have arround 26Ah, soo there is a 3Ah lost for this block (9P cells around 20mOhm IR each one vs 15mOhm at new 30Q)
Some one digest this data and put out some conclusions.. (the first conclusion is if battery is used just replace all cells for new ones and forget to reuse old cells.. if battery is used, to recover just put new cells on that! but we could do some study about battery cells degradation..)
NOT RECOMMENDED TO REUSE used CELLS with many cycles used (but how those get a second life? )

Anyway, one more picture to keep on posting and more views

 

[batteryGOLD]

more waste of minutes checking views and doin MS Paint "art work"

 

[goatman]

if your playing with used 30Q's you can try regenerating them
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=109601&hilit=desulfate&start=50#p1651810

 

[batteryGOLD]

if your playing with used 30Q's you can try regenerating them
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=109601&hilit=desulfate&start=50#p1651810

Thanks for information.
I have around +200 cells 30Q waiting for second life use.(no leak voltage cells)
I have classified cells by internal resistance mOhm
some have capacity from 2500mAh to 2800mAh. New ones have around 2900mAh and 15mOhm IR

this x200 30Q used still have a lot of capacity, but many cycles and high drain use profile, Soo I keep those on hold..

 

[leffex]

My electrician brother set 4x 4s lipo 20C rate packs with a 20s charger. Charge rate was about 5A and voltage 84v. So each cell was charging up to a level of 5,25v per cell and that caused a fire 100%. Yes it was a real fire but I'm not sure when it started only that I had told him 10 times not to charge 4 packs but that he must have 5 connected when charging.

He is scared for life. Lucky he didn't burn down the 13 story house with old people.

Before that he had put other packs for charge. Yes 4,6 per cell and they had been as such for hours or a day or two. I took his packs and rode his bike down to normal level for the cells and an esimate is really that there's alot of energy in there but at the mercy of a fire no energy is worth it.

Regarding 18650 cells. I have had one episode of heat when I used a 5p pack of 26J cells at 50-70Amps and a 10 minutes into a ride I heard fizzling noice and extreme heat so went home in 2 minutes and threw out the heat pack in sand but it wasn't on fire but yes the pack was kinda dead or wasn't going to be used again.