Aussie 200 Watt Limit Thread

[hydro-one]

some way to demonstrate or convince authorities

now that would be real progress , woulndt it!!!

im thinking the device in "men in black" , just look into here.......

 

[Hyena]

I have never heard of a motors output being measured at the rear wheels..ever....only the crankshaft

Most dyno power figures (for cars atleast) are quoted at the wheels. Usually only car manufacturers quote actual crankshaft power because it's a huge undertaking to try and measure the output of the engine insitu (or worse still removing it) rather than just parking its bum on the rollers. Power:weight ratios aren't enforced here in NSW for P platers but I believe in Vic they send a car off to be dyno'd if they think its been modified over the allowable limit. Likewise with bikes its going to be impossible to measure power output of a hub motor (which is going to be the majority out there) unless measured at the wheel.

Obviously the 200w thing is a load of crap, as is even 300w. They're talking about power and speed limits but why not just make it the speed limit. If your motor is limited to 30km/hr who cares if its 200w or 1000w. It doesn't make it anymore dangerous or law breaking, it just means you have a bit more guts to get up hills. It also wouldn't require any special equipment - the cop could just measure like speed like they do on a car (either radar or tailing you) The gay thing is though, if they're going to introduce a pedelec requirement how are they going to enforce that when it comes to a power and speed limit? What are they going to do, strap the bike on a dyno, get you to sit on it and start pedalling ? Make sure you don't pedal any faster than the motor can go on its own though or we'll have to fine you

 

[AussieJester]

I have never heard of a motors output being measured at the rear wheels..ever....only the crankshaft

Most dyno power figures (for cars atleast) are quoted at the wheels.

Correct...but we arent talking about the cars or in this case bikes power output are we, which would include all the losses from the drive train we are talking about the motors power output or brake horse power (BHP) which isn't measured at the rear wheels its always measured at the crankshaft BEFORE all the losses of the drive train....Its not possible to get an accurate measure of the motors out put from the rear wheels. The law clearly satates the motors output cant exceed 200watt...this would equate to far less at the rear wheels, this is why safe argues that it where the measurement is taken as it allows him to use more than in his case 750watt 'federal law stated' limit he always quotes. To have 750watt at the rear wheel you need in the vicinity of 1000watt motor output to get it after all the losses involved.. So,,,they will have to either measure at the crank of the motor or revise the wording of the law, as it stands though if they leave it and measure at the rear wheel we could safely go in the region of 400-500watt motors couldnt we?

KiM

 

[all74]

Obviously the 200w thing is a load of crap, as is even 300w. They're talking about power and speed limits but why not just make it the speed limit.

I like the simplicity of a speed limit (30k better than 25) but then in theory you could speed limit a Ducati Monster and say its a bike

The LA class of motorbike have a capacity limit (50cc) and a speed limit (50K), although in theory you could use a 50cc with significant power to get you up to 50ks. But this is a road going device only, I personally don't want to see highly powered ebikes on shared bike/footpaths even if they are speed limited, in the wrong hands it's just not a good mix.

I was thinking along the lines of some kind of once off compliance plate, either supplied by the manufacturer/retailer and built into the cost, or applied for by the rider somehow.

 

[adrian_sm]

I guess I was hoping in this thread we might come up with some alternatives we could present to the relevant authorities. So ..

-some way for police to instantly test compliance other than pedal first and 25k speed limit.
-some way to demonstrate or convince authorities that 200w motors are not "primary" drives. (It seems the whole pedal first thing is aimed at complying with the language in the regulation)
-some sensible reasons why a 25k limit is not necessary or why a higher limit might be better.

ideas?

Only way to change things is to have sensible alternatives, and a good established lobby group to push your cause.

I believe the authorities have been in discussion with groups such as Bicycle Victoria http://www.bv.com.au/bikes-&-riding/10607/.

Here is a quote from that link.

Electric or motor-assisted bicycles can be great for people who need a bit of extra help to get up hills or carry a heavy load of groceries home, or travel a longer distance.

They are particularly useful for people with arthritic knees or other physical constraints that can restrict cycling opportunities on an ordinary bike.

Power-assisted bikes with a power output of up to 200 watts are defined as bicycles and covered by the same road rules as ordinary bicycles.

Bicycle Victoria supports an increase in the maximum power output currently allowed, from 200 watts to 300 watts. This increase will help get more people with physical constraints riding. It will also have the added benefit of making it more affordable as the 300 watt motors are generally cheaper. Bicycle Victoria believes a motor with a maximum output of 500 watts is too powerful.

To put the power output in perspective, elite cyclists like Lance Armstrong and Cadel Evans can manage 800 watts in short bursts.

Power-assisted bicycles should have a performance equivalent of no more than a normal cyclist on a normal bicycle under normal conditions. Bicycle commuting speed is around 25 kph but varies according to the conditions.

The opinion here really seems to be focused, on having the power assist not increase the performance of the bicycle, but rather make life easier for the cyclist. This makes it very easy from a legal perspective to defend the decision. But will not result in any wide spread adoption of eBikes due to very limited assistance.

For us to make a difference, we would first need to get key lobby groups such as this to accept a different view of eBikes.
Perhaps not trying to link the performance target of an ebike to the average non-electric bike, riden by an average rider.

I like the pedal first requirement, from a safety point of view.
I don't like the 25kph speed limit, since
- I ride faster than that on my road bike
- it increases the complexity of the system (electric limiters)
- or, it rules out cheap robust design such as a direct drive hub as it will be a generator going down hills.

So I would suggest, that we reference other countires laws. Perhaps target similar standards to America.
- 500-750W
- 32kph max
- pedal first

This is a useful compromise, that will get more people using ebikes, but not getting so powerful that the lawyers start getting excited.

Having said that, I would prefer to have a bike slightly more powerfull than this, but wouldn't mind if I had to get it "licensed" to do that. Must read up on what is required to fall into the mo-ped category. But since it falls under some ADR rules, looks like you would need to get someone to sign it off, and that won't be easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

Road vehicles in Australia must comply with all applicable Australian Design Rules (ADRs)[1] before they can be supplied to the market for use in transport (Motor Vehicle Standards Act 1989 Cwth)[2].

The ADRs contain the following definitions for bicycles and mopeds:

4.2. Two-Wheeled and Three-Wheeled Vehicles

4.2.1. PEDAL CYCLE (AA)

A vehicle designed to be propelled through a mechanism solely by human power.

4.2.2. POWER-ASSISTED PEDAL CYCLE (AB)

A pedal cycle to which is attached one or more auxiliary propulsion motors having a combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts.

4.2.3. MOPED - 2 Wheels (LA)

A 2-wheeled motor vehicle, not being a power-assisted pedal cycle, with an engine cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 ml and a ‘Maximum Motor Cycle Speed‘ not exceeding 50 km/h; or a 2-wheeled motor vehicle with a power source other than a piston engine and a ‘Maximum Motor Cycle Speed‘ not exceeding 50 km/h.

(Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule – Definitions and Vehicle Categories 2005 Compilation 3 19 September 2007).

The are no ADRs applicable to AA or AB category vehicles. There are ADRs for lighting, braking, noise, controls and dimensions for LA category vehicles, mostly referencing the equivalent UN ECE Regulations. An approval is required to supply to the market any road vehicle to which ADRs apply and an import approval is required to import any road vehicle into Australia.

 

[Hyena]

we are talking about the motors power output or brake horse power (BHP)

Yeah but unlike petrol motors as you know with an electric motor all you need to do is up the current and up goes the power. We've already established that a "200w" factory motor is going to put out alot more than that.

its always measured at the crankshaft BEFORE all the losses of the drive train....Its not possible to get an accurate measure of the motors out put from the rear wheels.

Yeah, but arguably what you're putting down at the wheels is what's most important. If I'm dumping 300w into a little hub motor off the line and losing 50% of it as heat into the coils I'm not putting much power down to the road as you with a say a 300w chain drive motor. While both over 200w at the motor at the end of the day I'm operating within the law and you're a menace to society

A real world example that comes to mind from a few years back is the VW golf GTI's and R32s. Apparently the GTIs weren't allowed on Ps because of the allowable power:weight ratio but the slighly heavier higher performace R32 was...

they will have to either measure at the crank of the motor or revise the wording of the law, as it stands though if they leave it and measure at the rear wheel we could safely go in the region of 400-500watt motors couldnt we?

As was mentioned in another thread, hopefully they'll measure the cruising / top speed power. Cruising along the flat at 25km/hr while only chewing 200w IS doable if they allow bursts of power over this amount during acceleration or up hills (which is what is proposed, along with upping the limit to 250w)
But yeah, either way they're going to need to revise the wording if they're going to enforce it. There's no other way to really measure the output of a hub motor and they'd have disassemble most chain drive bikes to get at their motors to measure the output at the shaft. It's either believe the rating stickers or measure at the wheels.
(I'm not arguing with you AJ, it's all stupid, I'm just keepin' it real )

 

[Hyena]

So I would suggest, that we reference other countires laws. Perhaps target similar standards to America.
- 500-750W
- 32kph max
- pedal first

This is a useful compromise, that will get more people using ebikes, but not getting so powerful that the lawyers start getting excited.

I agree that would be much better, and that sort of performance would get alot more people out and about on ebikes but I can see politicians will have heart attacks when the proposed new limit is more than double.
What we need to do is get some fat arsed politician to ride 5 ks around hilly terrain with a 200w ebike, then do the same again with a 500w and see which he prefers. They need to see the real world result and not just a figure on paper and that the difference between 200w and 500w isn't like doubling the speed limit in backstreets from 50 to 100km/hr

Having said that, I would prefer to have a bike slightly more powerfull than this, but wouldn't mind if I had to get it "licensed" to do that. Must read up on what is required to fall into the mo-ped category. But since it falls under some ADR rules, looks like you would need to get someone to sign it off, and that won't be easy.

Likewise, I wouldn't mind paying some sort of nominal fee to be able to ride my high powered ebike without getting hassled and would even happily fit blinkers and tail lights - but once they start charging rego, green slip etc etc I may as well buy a motor bike.

 

[all74]

Only way to change things is to have sensible alternatives, and a good established lobby group to push your ....

I like the pedal first requirement, from a safety point of view.
I don't like the 25kph speed limit, since
- I ride faster than that on my road bike
- it increases the complexity of the system (electric limiters)
- or, it rules out cheap robust design such as a direct drive hub as it will be a generator going down hills.

I like the argument of increased complexity and cost. Plus electric limiters (as we all know here) are easy to overcome. Better to have the limitations, such as they are, engineered into the design rather than rely on pedal first and speed limiters.

This could in fact be a good argument for increase power...that increasing the power a bit at least would take away the incentive for many to design and ride illegal bikes...putting it back to being a mainstream retail thing rather than a home tinkering thing (just an argument not one I necessarily agree with).

I don't think pedal first is safer, especially without brake cutouts, mine takes at least up to 2 seconds to cut the power. Plus I think motoring very slowly through busy pedestrian/bike paths without pedaling I am safer and more stable than if I needed to pedal, especially when loaded up on my cargo bike.

I wonder how bike victoria decides that 500watts is too much? Unlikely that they test rode different bikes, maybe manufacturers or guys on this forum could provide test rides. I'm not sure why comparing to elite bike athletes is always bought up as some kind of valid comparison, not very real world.

But lots of good points Adrian.

 

[adrian_sm]

Okay read up a bit more on what would be required to register a vehicle as a moped in Oz.

Summary of Registration requirements for motorcycles, and mopeds

Here is my summary:
- would have to be registered as an ICV (Individually constructed vehicle) for self builds
- requires a compliance plate for stock ebikes
- requires a number plate & registration
- tyres must have load and speed rating appropraite for vehicle
- no more bike tyres?
- need head lights between 500mm and 1400mm above the ground
- brake lights between 350mm and 1400mm above the ground
- one tail lamp not more than 1500mm above the ground
- one license plate light
- turn signals required
- horn
- at least one rear vision mirror
- mudguards
- chain guards

Pretty much everything a motorbike needs to comply to, an ebike over 200W would have to. If you can find someone to give you an approval certificate.

I don't want to build a motorbike.
I don't want to go that fast.
I want to still pedal and get exercise.

Surely there is some middle ground. Ebikes are one of the most efficient forms of trasnsport in existence. You still get exercise. You are still travelling at non-powered bike speeds. (I have been overtaken by a road bike while at full throttle on the flat)

The trick is really that bikes are a very priveledged form of transport,
- allowed on footpaths when you are young
- allowed on dual use paths when you are older
- allowed on roads without any registration

We don't want eBikes messing this up.

Maybe if we restricted their use to roads only, but increased the power limit to 500-750W.
Or/and introduce a minimum age for an ebike, similar to the rule that stops you riding on footpaths.

- Adrian

 

[Kal]

A real world example that comes to mind from a few years back is the VW golf GTI's and R32s. Apparently the GTi's weren't allowed on Ps because of the allowable power:weight ratio but the slightly heavier higher performance R32 was...

The Golf GTi is banned for P platers because it has a turbo - in fact - the entire regular golf range all have turbo's now, even the entry level models, and they are all banned for P-platers. The most powerful golf, the R32, isn't banned because it does not have a turbo.

Our bike laws are ridiculous in Australia.....so are alot of our other laws!

 

[Geebee]

Come to Tassie and a P plater can buy and drive a hotted up turbo charged Silva or whatever else you like. The Silvia is a mates sons car, he bought it when he had his L's.

Australia needs 2 e-bike class the current one left as is and a moped class say 1 to 1.5kw need drivers license, won't happen though.

 

[Hardcarve1]

We are trying to place this form of transport into a world that thinks cars or pedal bikes. People are not educated about ebikes and I even get negative remarks by the lycra gang. I bet as soon as motorists start hearing that ebikes are going to take off and you will see more on the road they will all complaine. We need to fit into a world that does not understand us and I feel it will need to take governements to be pushed into accepting us once they see we are the future.
There was an artical in the Brisbane Couriour Mail today about ebikes in china which I was told worth a read. Did any one see it?.

 

[Hyena]

The most powerful golf, the R32, isn't banned because it does not have a turbo.

Ah is that what it was. It was a few years ago so I couldn't remember the exact details. I thought it was power:weight ratio. Either way, equally as stupid.

It'd be nice if they allowed 500w motors but even if they stick to teh suggestion that it's 250w cruising on the flat, that's not TOOOOO bad.
Oh and the wording "motors that can be adjusted or modified to produce higher than 200w should be avoided" is a key sentence.
Yeah, it's to be avoided, just like getting wet when it's raining.

I think the arguement that the average person pedals at 25km/hr shouldn't be the basis of their speed limitation. What's the average pedalling speed that a lycra wearer on a road bike does ? 40km/hr ? THAT should be the limit for ebikes - the fastest reasonable speed someone who rides a bike can ride (and 40km/hr is conservative, I've seen them in bunches doing ~60km/hr) If you get caught doing 70km/hr you're fair and square in the wrong, but 40km/hr is quite a plausible speed for a human to do.

What's going to happen when I'm cruising along the back streets at 35km/hr and get overtaken by a lycra. Are the cops going to fine me for doing 10km/hr over the arbitrarily assigned 25km/hr on my ebike while the next guy zooms past ?

It's like having a speed limit on a public road for everyone, but saying that if an experienced driver shows up in his carbon fiber sports car in a race suit he can drive as fast as he wants.

 

[AussieJester]

We are trying to place this form of transport into a world that thinks cars or pedal bikes. People are not educated about ebikes and I even get negative remarks by the lycra gang.

It wont be something the majority will adopt until such times the convenience of the car becomes too costly. Until such times we see 2-3 dollar a litre pump prices people wont be looking elsewhere for their transport needs. I don't think it is going to matter what anyone says, the car is more convenient for 99% of the people and will remain that way until its too expensive to be so. I know this doesn't help the 'cause' any and TBH i doubt there is much that can be done at this time other than to sit and wait until the rest of the population catches on, we are simply to few among too many who dont care.

KiM

p.s you snuck a post in there Hyena, i think 55km/hr is a nice speed since thats what my top speed is atm...when it increase so will my personal opinion of top speed hehehe I think your right though 40km/hr is a reasonable ask with a max motor output of 6500watt

 

[all74]

Your right Hardcarve1 ebikes seem to sit between motorbikes and bikes (esp with the lycra crowd I actually saw one wearing a yellow jersey today :lol, but in approaching this we should keep a focus on the fact that what most of us ride are just bicycles first and foremost. At 200W on a cargo bike I assure you thats how it feels to me; i;m doing plenty of pedaling! I like to think the electric part just turns a hilly city like Sydney into a flat city like Amsterdam. It seems if your on a bike in Australia your either a lycra clad roady or a scruffy mountain biker. The motor gives me a third option, just to wear normal clothes. Ask any Dutch person what they think of bike commuters in lycra and they just shake their head in disbelief.

In Sydney at least this electric bike stuff if bound to get bigger, the network of separated bikeways going in soon is incredible. The interest my bike gets everywhere I go has got me designing a brochure to hand out rather than having to stop every 5 mins (slight exaggeration) to talk to everyone! A 2 stroke motor guy I spoke with today seemed to have no idea that his bike was very likely illegal.

I understand why there's a bit of apathy about (apart from I'm sure everyone here having heard it all before), it is full of overpowered bikes here (and I love that by the way) but really a change in the rules won't effect you much, your illegal now, and you'd be illegal under the new rules, why be too interested? Really though it's clear that the vagueness of the rules as they stand, helps keep overpowered bikes under the radar.

It would be great to keep mulling (I know rehashing old stuff too) these ideas, get some vague consensus, and present some stuff to someone, Bicycle Australia/Vic/NSW, that seems a better approach than the RTA or government ministers. Some here are likely members of these groups anyway.

 

[AussieJester]

.There is even an Aussie mob selling i think 25cc ICE motors that mount on the side of the bike/wheel and they also state that the output is measured at the rear wheel. They use electric hub motors as their arguement stating they have no crankshaft and thus their output is measured at the wheel :-S I'll see if i can dig up the link to the company will post t when/if i find it..

Found the mob selling "legal" 30cc ICE motors, their description of the way the 'motors output is measured can be found on their website...

http://www.rotarybike.com/rotarybike_content.asp?pid=33

The 200watt wording is definitely opened to interpretation...is at our advantage if they decide to dyno at the rear wheel
to measure the motors output, it's not correct but i'll take it over measuring the motor itself gives use another few hundred watts
to play with as far as motor size goes..

KiM

 

[tailwind]

A few points,


Uping the 200w limit is good for the vendors as they will have a greater range of bikes that they can import.

A pedal-first requirement is no good for people that have bad knees. Not if your trying to start on an uphill.

The law has to be framed in such a way as to allow ebikes and bikes to coexist on the existing bike path infrastructure.

A speed limit of 25kmh on a onroad bike path is just going to annoy every other cyclist using that lane. Because cyclists are usually travelling at a higher speed, it forces them into the car lanes to overtake.

Then you have the farcical situation where if you are rolling down a hill behind another cyclist doing 30kmh. If you are pedeling its ok, but if you are just freewheeling then you are breaking the law.

I use my bike mainly for commuting.
A limit of 250w is going to be useless for me. Some nights when I am coming home from work I am riding into a very strong southerly headwind and facing long up hill stretches. I am usually tired from working all day and I dont want to arrive home completely stuffed.

Greg

 

[all74]

I think the 25k speed limit thing is about when the motor cuts out and wouldn't limit coasting or pedaling faster if your capable.

But yeah it could be argued that on narrow separated cycleway any kind of speed limit could hold up other riders and create dangerous situations. Although Im not sure the LA class 50k limited motorbikers have gotten anywhere with a similar argument.

 

[MrBoots]

Some of my "lycra gang" friends think ebikes should be banned or require license/registration just like mopeds/motorcycles. Not surprising because, for them, biking is just another means of conspicuous consumption: their $2k+ carbon bikes are occasionally ridden a couple times a week/month while their car is still their primary means of transport. I think it's safe to say most of the folks interested in ebikes are commuters whose bikes are their means of getting around. I'm actually glad ebikes aren't in widespread use here, still under the radar because I can imagine people abusing them, breaking traffic laws, causing accidents, etc. that will draw the attention of citizens and law-makers. Anyway, glad us folks here in the states are encumbered by ebike laws like you Aussies...at least not yet....

 

[AussieJester]

I think it's safe to say most of the folks interested in ebikes are commuters whose bikes are their means of getting around. I'm actually glad ebikes aren't in widespread use here, still under the radar because I can imagine people abusing them, breaking traffic laws, causing accidents, etc.

I think your spot on with this summary, the lycras all think we are 'cheaters' what a load of bullshit that is, they cant see past the 'sport' of cycling to see they can be legitimate means of transport too work, who the f*ck wants to ride 20km in a suit and arrive stinking of sweat, people that think like them are closed mind arrogant pricks IMHO...I am also really glad e-bikes aren't popular the longer they remain so the longer we get 'free rain' and get to ride what ever we like safe in the knowledge the Mr Policeman know very little about the legalities, sure as shit when they are a nuisance the Mr Policeman will be told aaaaall about the dos and donts what is and whats not legal with the electric bike...just hope when they are given the speech by the powers that be the rc motors are left out of the conversation and its focues on frock motors, should leave me good to go after all "how can a motor size of a coke can be more than 200watt Mr Policeman sheesh "...

KiM

 

[Hyena]

the lycras all think we are 'cheaters' what a load of bullshit that is

Yeah I always get that when ever I talk to a lycra, "that's cheating" or "you don't get any exercise doing that"
My reply is always "how much exercise would I be getting sitting in my car flexing my big toe ?" "everyone who drives a car or rides a motorbike are also cheating right ?"
They usually just grumble in reply and never have a come back.
I used to commute in my collar and tie but I take my clothes in my bag now because my work trousers were getting a bit of wear from the casually pedalling I do and I take a few off road short cuts which occasionally flicks up water and muck.
Roaring along with your tie flapping in the breeze turns plenty of heads though :lol:

 

[AussieJester]

my work trousers were getting a bit of wear from the casually pedalling I do

agggh naaaagh...nevermind...that's too easy that one

KiM

 

[02jze]

My bike will soon have 2x 200 watt motors running at 48v but shhhh. I will argue that 2x200watt motors on the one chain/drive cannot make you go faster or be any less safe then 1x200 watt motor. I simply use this method to half the amps to keep the motor temps down..
I would like to talk to more police about my bike to see what they think of it. I would play dumb if i didnt have the second motor on there as my bike is a prefab e~bike and has 24v200w stickers on it.
YEars ago i spoke to a family friend who was a cop and she knew alot about the laws as far as voltage and watts. As long as it was labeled for her to tell what your running..
The law is fine as it is its easy to mask the power of your ebike and they dont attract too much attention atm so im happy with how it is.
The law has to be idiot proof like so many other things in life today.

 

[gtadmin]

So.... who sells stickon "200W" stickers?

 

[Hyena]

I know a guy who was thinking about getting some professionally printed. I think the minimum run is 50 though, but if say 10 people were interested it'd only be around $5 each and that would get you a couple (one for motor, one for controller and a spare or 2). You could get them to say "200w high output" or something like that or just plain "200 watt". Obviously they'd only be sold to people who had 200w motors :wink: