Battery won’t charge.

[rick_p]

I would like to resurrect my old ebike that was working until I had a battery problem. One day I plugged in the charger and nothing, it wouldn’t go into charge mode. I unplugged the charger and checked the fuse, it was blown, so I replaced it with the same exact type and amp rating. I plugged in the charger and the charger went into charge mode for about a second, but then it almost instantly stopped charging went went back into idle mode. I knew there is circuit protection inside the battery box so I unplugged, and removed the battery pack from the case to inspect. All the wiring appears intact (no visible damage) and the circuit boards don’t have any visible signs of short circuiting. Is this a hopeless case? Meaning, is it a case of there are no user replaceable parts at this point, or is there anything else I can check? The cells were probably around midway through their life span, I was still getting around 20 miles out of a charge before the failure, so it would be nice to get this bike back on the road if I don’t have to buy a new battery for it.

 

[rick_p]

Wow, there is a lot of really great information here, I’m such a noob I’m going to have to read it all a couple of more times to see if I can understand it all, but in the meantime I’m going to take more/better pictures and post them, and I will test all the wiring and connections as instructed (brakes, throttle, etc). The one question no one answered though, is whether 25 amps is expected at the wires supplying power to the controller?

 

[LewTwo]

Wow, there is a lot of really great information here, I’m such a noob I’m going to have to read it all a couple of more times to see if I can understand it all, but in the meantime I’m going to take more/better pictures and post them, and I will test all the wiring and connections as instructed (brakes, throttle, etc). The one question no one answered though, is whether 25 amps is expected at the wires supplying power to the controller?

The motor controller determines the maximum current it will deliver and motor determines the maximum current it will draw. I do not believe either one is discussed in this thread. Worse case, unless you have the throttle open and the brakes locked (or the motor has a direct short) then no you should not expect 25 amps in the power wires.

Most common DMMs (Digital Multimeters) do not go over 10 Amps. You are going to be measuring voltages and should be taking reading between two points. You should not be measuring current (AMPS) at this point which would require an "inline" measurement.

 

[rick_p]

I plugged the battery into the bike and tried to turn it on, the LED lights that normally indicate the amount of charge with red, yellow, and green lights, just flashed some sort of pattern in red.

If this is the basis of concern... With the LED indicators similar to this type...

It's operation is determined from just a straight battery voltage input thru a series of resistors and other electronic components on a PCB to account for the different colored light LED requirements, nothing smart about it.

Typical problem of operation are from a bad or intermittent battery connector. Or some loss of full voltage to it.
You may want to take voltage readings right at the LED's PCB voltage input, and work backwards...

Here are some additional pictures and the results of some tests:



In case you can't read the sticker...
ECOWAY DRIVE - BLDC DRIVE
Date 11/6/2016
Model EB4818DLC
SN 21030844001-0048
Shanghai Wind Rider Electric Bicycle Industry Co.,Ltd

As you can see, my throttle/switch is exactly like the one in your pictures. What voltage should I be expecting at the LED’s PCB input with the key in the On position? I’m getting 49 volts at the switch (brown wire). I couldn't really get a reading at the PCB (red and orange wires) because it just pulses with the flashing light, mostly pulses at zero but occasionally pulses at 3 volts and I think I saw it go much higher than that but now I don’t remember exactly what the number was.

Switch and throttle connector at the controller: With the battery turned on the brown wire had 40 volts when I first touched the probe, but then it crept up to about 50 volts after about a minute. See more recent notes below.

I also checked the Hall sensor connector, the red wire had 12 volts, the Hall wires all had exactly 4.7 volts.

 

[TommyCat]

What voltage should I be expecting at the LED’s PCB input with the key in the On position?

On my system, A Magic Pie V5... I would expect to see full battery voltage here. As well as on the switch, as mine is used as a lighting switch using full battery power. (but low current only)

Your low and sporadic voltages where I would expect full battery voltage seems problematic.

I would recommend checking for voltage on both sides of your key switch for a possible contact problem. Putting one tester lead on each side of the key switch and testing for voltage with the key in the "on" position. Should show NO voltage or voltage potential.

Also on both sides of the throttle/switch connector to controller high voltage wires.

Do you have a wiring diagram for your particular controller? What is your throttle switch used for? Separate key switch right?
Where and how is the key switch wired into your system? Do you have a display?

Using the LED indicators would seem a neat solution to alert the owner of controller problems. I just haven't seen it used this way.

 

[rick_p]

I would recommend checking for voltage on both sides of your key switch for a possible contact problem. Putting one tester lead on each side of the key switch and testing for voltage with the key in the "on" position. Should show NO voltage or voltage potential.

Also on both sides of the throttle/switch connector to controller high voltage wires.

This is where your experience really shows, I had not thought to check this, but it make perfect sense.

Do you have a wiring diagram for your particular controller? What is your throttle switch used for? Separate key switch right?
Where and how is the key switch wired into your system? Do you have a display?

Using the LED indicators would seem a neat solution to alert the owner of controller problems. I just haven't seen it used this way.

I do not have a wiring diagram, but I'll dig a little deeper to see if I can find one. The actual key switch is built into the battery enclosure, there is no display, just the lights at the throttle. I really do think the blinking light is a controller feature to warn the user of a problem, the blink pattern seems to have very precise pulsing, and not random like a bad connection would likely be, but what it's "telling" will be hard to figure out.

I'll check all of this and report back with more photos.

 

[TommyCat]

If access to the battery key switch is difficult, just checking at the battery's output connector would seem sufficient. Remember that BOTH positive and negative connections are equally important. See if it's dropping the voltage there.

I really do think the blinking light is a controller feature to warn the user of a problem, the blink pattern seems to have very precise pulsing, and not random like a bad connection would likely be, but what it's "telling" will be hard to figure out.

Always eager to learn something new! Bring it on.

 

[LewTwo]

At least one of those wires on the throttle should be ground. Logic would say the black one but with Chinese wiring that can vary as well. E-Bikes do NOT have a chassis ground. I use a long piece of wire (zip cord actually) with alligator clips on both ends as a reference to the battery ground when trying to diag unknown connections.

 

[rick_p]

If access to the battery key switch is difficult, just checking at the battery's output connector would seem sufficient. Remember that BOTH positive and negative connections are equally important. See if it's dropping the voltage there.

Well, I’m not really sure how to check the positive and negative connections separately, but I put the positive probe in the positive side and the negative probe in the negative side of the battery’s output connector, and then turned the key on and off a few times. I got 54 volts when the key was in the on position and zero volts in the off position, every try. I even shook the battery to see if that might cause a disconnect, but it didn’t.

I really do think the blinking light is a controller feature to warn the user of a problem, the blink pattern seems to have very precise pulsing, and not random like a bad connection would likely be, but what it's "telling" will be hard to figure out.

Always eager to learn something new! Bring it on.

I really payed attention to it this time and noticed that it’s either not as precise as I originally thought, or it has a complex pattern, but it’s not just an evenly timed blinking.

Remembering back to the original symptom, this all started from a blown fuse on the charging side of the battery. There are fuses on both sides of the battery box, one on the input side and one on the output side, and it was the input side that was blown. It has not blown a fuse since then, but ever since that happened, I have had the blinking light at the LED lights by the throttle. I’m inclined to think that this a controller problem, but it is possible for a controller problem to cause a blown fuse on the input side of the battery? That seems unlikely to me.

No luck finding a wiring diagram for this controller, but I decided to pop the cover of the controller to have a look inside. It has a clear silicone like material poured over the circuit board and all the wire connections, but you can see pretty well and there wasn't any obviously fried circuitry visible. What I did find interesting though, I was not the first person to pop the cover, I noticed there was originally a QC sticker over one of the screws, but you could tell that the screw had been removed before. Hmmm

At least one of those wires on the throttle should be ground. Logic would say the black one but with Chinese wiring that can vary as well. E-Bikes do NOT have a chassis ground. I use a long piece of wire (zip cord actually) with alligator clips on both ends as a reference to the battery ground when trying to diag unknown connections.

Funny you should mention this because intuitively I have used the battery’s ground wire for all of the testing I’ve been doing for the very reason you mentioned, I didn’t trust a black wire at the throttle switch to necessarily be a ground. Let’s just hope the battery isn’t the problem. LOL

 

[rick_p]

I read some of the trouble shooting tips here: https://ebikes.ca/learn/troubleshooting.html, which led me to go recheck the voltage coming from the controller at the connector that goes to the throttle and the on/of switch at the handlebars. Previously, I reported that I only got a reading (52 volts) from the brown wire with the battery turned on, but I probably had the on/off switch in the off position. So, I just re-checked it with the switch on and not surprisingly, I'm getting erratic readings from some of the wires. The brown wire is still a constant 52 volts and the green throttle wire is a constant 5 volts, but some of the other wires pulse between 0 and a significant voltage. I'm highly suspect of the controller now and am seeking to find a spare to see if I can determine if it's the culprit.

 

[TommyCat]

A far as the charging (inlet power) fuse is concerned... With a powerful flashlight I'd be looking carefully into, and at, the battery's charging port. For any debris, damage, or arcing that may have occurred between the negative and positive conductors. Is this a "barrel" type? Also checking the wiring for shorting between the small RED and BLACK wires at the back of the port, and thru the battery.


Take a look at this illustration for your throttle's hall sensor wiring connections...

From your picture it appears that the 5vdc supply is a purple wire? Or is it actually the BLACK one?
The ground is the RED wire... (middle terminal) Does this wire head down the harness to the connector?
And the sensor output is the green wire. (It's output should be around .8vdc and would lock most controllers out if 5vdc, as an indication of a bad throttle)

Can you see any other wires that are tied together here?

And at the switch... The black wire is connected to it? As is the white, and brown. Any others, it's a bit difficult to see. What function(s) exactly has this switch on the throttle served? I.E. What happened when pushed in?

During normal operation...
Key switch "on"... did the LED's light up?
Was throttle locked out till throttle switch pressed in?

Any chance to get a hand drawn illustration of it's wiring. Or detailed description from the connector up to each individual component... more close-up pictures?

You still testing from the battery's ground point?

 

[rick_p]

A far as the charging (inlet power) fuse is concerned... With a powerful flashlight I'd be looking carefully into, and at, the battery's charging port. For any debris, damage, or arcing that may have occurred between the negative and positive conductors. Is this a "barrel" type? Also checking the wiring for shorting between the small RED and BLACK wires at the back of the port, and thru the battery.

Thank you for this, but all of these were the very first things I checked.

From your picture it appears that the 5vdc supply is a purple wire? Or is it actually the BLACK one?
The ground is the RED wire... (middle terminal) Does this wire head down the harness to the connector?
And the sensor output is the green wire. (It's output should be around .8vdc and would lock most controllers out if 5vdc, as an indication of a bad throttle). Can you see any other wires that are tied together here?

And at the switch... The black wire is connected to it? As is the white, and brown. Any others, it's a bit difficult to see. What function(s) exactly has this switch on the throttle served? I.E. What happened when pushed in?

I created some wiring diagrams to hopefully answer all of these questions. And I'll cover the voltage readings there too. The switch at the throttle turned on the power, but it's kind of silly because it's not a momentary switch, it's an on/off switch, so you could leave this switch on and power down the bike via the key on the battery, and vice versa.

During normal operation...
Key switch "on"... did the LED's light up?

Only if the switch was on at the throttle. If the battery key was on and this switch was off, there was no power and no lights. If this switch was left in the on position after last use, turning the key on at the battery powered up the bike and the LEDs would light up and indicate the charge level of the battery.

Was throttle locked out till throttle switch pressed in?

There was no power to anything if the throttle switch was in the off position, regardless of whether the key was on or not.

Any chance to get a hand drawn illustration of it's wiring. Or detailed description from the connector up to each individual component... more close-up pictures?

I got you covered.

You still testing from the battery's ground point?

Yes


The throttle/switch cable doesn't go all the way to the controller, it goes to the junction box pictured below where it and the brake cables are merged into a single cable that goes to the controller. This is why the purple wire cannot be traced all the way to the controller connector, it must get merged with another wire at the male connector that connects to the junction box.


With the throttle/switch assembly removed from the bike, I attempted to trace the wires from the switch, LEDs, and throttle sensor to the pins at the end of the attached cable, in hopes of ultimately tracing the wires all the way to the connector at the controller. but as you can see in my diagram, the only wires that are isolated are the brown and white wires. I got continuity on four different pins from all four of the other wires (purple, black, green, orange).


I was able to trace the wires that come from the female connection at the junction box to the connector at the controller. The only two wires I could trace end to end were the brown wire, which stays brown from the switch to the controller, and the wire that starts out white at the switch and ends green at the controller.


As stated in an earlier post, with the battery key on, but the switch at the throttle OFF, the only wire with voltage on it at the controller connector is the brown wire, which has 52 volts. With the battery key on and the switch at the throttle ON, the following happens at the controller connector:
Brown - pulses between 0 and 30 something volts
White - pulses between 0 and 20 something volts
Green - 5 volts constant
Red - 5 volts constant
Black - 0 volts
Orange - pulses between 0 and 20 something volts

I hope this helps narrow things down.

 

[TommyCat]

Well done! I know this took a lot of effort. Let's make something of it.

To be clear, the throttle assembly and cable was disconnected from the junction box when testing.

And did the amount of resistance indicate a dead short between all 4? If not, what where the specific resistance readings between different pairs of the 4 wires?

I'll compare it to mine...

Added:

You must get into resistance readings of high resolution... Checking each wire color end to individual pin, the one with the lowest resistance would be the direct wire connection.

 

[TommyCat]

The only two wires I could trace end to end were the brown wire, which stays brown from the switch to the controller, and the wire that starts out white at the switch and ends green at the controller.

You just about had me here! yikes.

You MUST mirror the wire positions of the HIGO connector when looking at them directly! As they turn out to be when they are connected together.
This and the readings you mention would seem to indicate that the White throttle wire actually goes to the white controller wire.

I'm going with the green controller wire is throttle's hall sensor output voltage. Once the 5vdc is removed (throttle over voltage error), hopefully the error indication will leave us.
Awaiting more readings, wire verifications...

 

[rick_p]

You MUST mirror the wire positions of the HIGO connector when looking at them directly! As they turn out to be when they are connected together.
This and the readings you mention would seem to indicate that the White throttle wire actually goes to the white controller wire.

I'm going with the green controller wire is throttle's hall sensor output voltage. Once the 5vdc is removed (throttle over voltage error), hopefully the error indication will leave us.
Awaiting more readings, wire verifications...

I'm not hundred percent sure I understand what you mean when you say "You MUST mirror the wire positions of the HIGO connector when looking at them directly! As they turn out to be when they are connected together." because my statement wasn't necessarily related to any picture, I was merely pointing out the those two wires (white and brown switch wires) were the only two wires that can be traced to a pin at the MALE HIGO plug that doesn't also report readings from other wires, and therefore, they can be traced from the switch all the way to the controller connector, except that the white wire changes to green somewhere. I don't know what happens to the green wire from the throttle sensor.

Here are the readings between the switch, LEDs, throttle sensor and the male plug at the end of the cable. Hopefully this will help clarify things

 

[rick_p]

I ran a couple of quick tests this morning in hopes of narrowing down the wiring. With the HIGO connector connected, I turned the key at the battery and the power switch at the throttle on, and then checked voltages at the throttle (hall) sensor. The purple wire had a constant 5 volts, and the green wire had 2.5 volts with no magnet in place, but the voltage fluctuated (went up) when I waved a magnet by it. The next test I did was, I disconnected the HIGO connector and tested voltages at the female end of the cable that runs to the controller connector. Pin 6 had a constant 52 volts and pin 5 had less than a volt, like .125 or something. The rest had no voltage. I'm sure there is a logical explanation as to why there is 5 volts on the purple wire at the throttle sensor when there isn't a pin at the female connector at the junction box that also has 5 volts on it, but I can't explain it.

 

[TommyCat]

Here's what I come up with...

The YELLOW highlighted readings above indicate to me a direct wire connection.
Note: The pin designations are flipped or mirrored due to which side of the connector you are on. Hopefully this clears the "mirror" reference. If not let me know.

Operational sequence.

Battery key "on"
Battery power + to BROWN wire up to throttle switch.
Throttle switch 'On".
Battery power + down WHITE wire to controller. (known as the key or ignition circuit)
Controller electronics are energized, bringing the 5vdc power source on line. Providing 5vdc to the RED wire.
5vdc goes back up the RED wire, which switches color at the HIGO connector to PURPLE.
PURPLE wire feeds the throttle's hall sensor power input pin.
This allows the throttle hall sensor to output .8vdc to 4.2vdc back to the controller thru the GREEN wire.
Ignition circuit also allows battery + power to go up the ORANGE wire to the throttle's LED PCB for display operation.
BLACK wire is ground.

This covers all 6 wires. (7 colors as the RED turns to PURPLE as noted earlier)

Verify then trust!

With your meter to the setting you used earlier. I.E. touching leads together = ~1.2MOhms or direct wire continuity.
Test between the 6 wires on the controller connector with it disconnected, and where the wiring diagram shows it should go...
Higo is left connected together.
Each test should result in direct wire connection. I.E. RED wire end below to PURPLE wire connection at hall sensor = ~1.2MOhms.

Only after verifying and agreeing with with my conclusions, proceed. Ask any questions or problems with tests BEFORE proceeding.

Questions I have...

Earlier you stated that you had 5vdc on the GREEN wire. Which would indicate a bad hall sensor. Then you state that you get 2.5vdc with the magnet removed. This indicates a good hall sensor reading. Any comments?



If we are on the same page and every thing works as described, the next test I would make is this...

Jumping the ignition circuit (both full battery power) should provide 5vdc at the RED wire as well as full battery power at the ORANGE wire.
Specifically you're looking to see if the "pulsing" disappears or remains, with removal of the throttle/switch assembly and upper harness from the controller wiring.

 

[rick_p]

The pin designations are flipped or mirrored due to which side of the connector you are on. Hopefully this clears the "mirror" reference. If not let me know.

I'm clear. Thanks

With your meter to the setting you used earlier. I.E. touching leads together = ~1.2MOhms or direct wire continuity.
Test between the 6 wires on the controller connector with it disconnected, and where the wiring diagram shows it should go...
Higo is left connected together. Each test should result in direct wire connection. I.E. RED wire end below to PURPLE wire connection at hall sensor = ~1.2MOhms.

It all checked out perfectly.

Only after verifying and agreeing with with my conclusions, proceed. Ask any questions or problems with tests BEFORE proceeding.

Got it.

Questions I have...
Earlier you stated that you had 5vdc on the GREEN wire. Which would indicate a bad hall sensor. Then you state that you get 2.5vdc with the magnet removed. This indicates a good hall sensor reading. Any comments?

I must have erred on my first report, I checked it twice (turned off battery between tries) before preceding with jumping the switch wires at the controller connector and got 2.5 volts both times.

If we are on the same page and every thing works as described, the next test I would make is jumping the switch wires at the controller connector.

Jumping the ignition circuit (both full battery power) should provide 5vdc at the RED wire as well as full battery power at the ORANGE wire.
Specifically you're looking to see if the "pulsing" disappears or remains, with removal of the throttle/switch assembly and upper harness from the controller wiring.

I jumped the wires at the controller connector and turned on the key at the battery. The pulsing red light remains at the LED. I verified the jumper wire was working by making sure the switch at the throttle had no effect on the blinking light by depressing it on and off. The pulsing remained through that test, the jumper was doing it's job.

I await the next step. Excellent work on the diagrams by the way.

 

[TommyCat]

Thanks, just working off your great foundation.

CAUTION
Anytime one is troubleshooting an electrical system. Especially involving the throttle, and particularly when disassembled. (you've seen the output voltages!)
Be prepared for the motor to start unexpectedly at any time. And take precautions to prevent damage or injury. This may include taking the chain off (mid-drive), removing phase wires, or simply raising the hub motor wheel off the ground and keeping clear of it. Stay safe.


From your last test response I fear I was not clear enough. (although any data input is welcomed...)
To be clear...

The bypass test is done with the connector going to the throttle assembly left disconnected.
Having the jumper on the controller connection side only. (Great to hear it works BTW. ) This will isolate the throttle assembly from the controller, eliminating it from being the possible source of the problem.
Then test for the intermittent voltage power on the BROWN wire.

If still intermittent, CAREFULLY check the voltage input at the battery to controller PCB terminals (often large Black and Red wires). Is full battery voltage steady there with the bypass in place? (controller powered)

If voltage there is good and steady, but not at the BROWN wire jumped to white... disconnect the other HIGO connectors at the upper harness junction box and recheck.

 

[rick_p]

The bypass test is done with the connector going to the throttle assembly left disconnected.
Having the jumper on the controller connection side only.

I’m sure this is just me misunderstanding what you’re saying, but it sounds like you’re thinking there are two connectors (two separate harnesses) that lead up to the throttle/switch assembly, which would make it possible to disconnect just the throttle cable and leave the LED/power switch cable connected, but there’s only one harness. Please look at the new pictures and I’ll await further clarification and instruction before doing anything.

These pictures show all of the bikes wiring, hopefully this will help.

Here is a closeup of the junction box with the three cables coming from the handlebars labeled.

Here is a photo of all of the bike's harnesses and connectors where they attach to the controller.

Here is a closeup of the single cable that comes from the junction box. Note that the brakes were merged and that they use a separate connector to connect to the controller than the throttle assembly does, but also note that the wires for the throttle, LEDs, and switch all share the one connector. So, how do I leave the throttle assembly disconnected? Unless I remove the brown and white wires from the female connector on the harness side and add the loop there. Which, but the way, is where I put the jumper last time, I just did so with the wires still in there.

 

[TommyCat]

The pictures always help, just like being there. Like the easier and safer way to disconnect the brake switches if needed. I.E. undo the single connector at the controller.
And do to your efforts have a fair understanding of the wiring.
When I reference "throttle assembly" during testing, this refers to the throttle, throttle switch, and LED PCB. I.E. Everything contained in the throttle proper.

So I'd like to give some insight on my reasoning which may help. (may get long winded... hang on)


Note that much has been provided and resolved already, with this providing an over view of known and still unknown till now.
Keep in mind the words... possible and probable. The first being yes, or no. The latter, on a scale.
If anything mentioned is inaccurate, please offer correction.

Identify the problem.

Hey, blinking lights of the wrong color expected is pretty up front.

More specifically...
Full battery power on BROWN wire with battery key switch turned on - Normal.
Slow rise to full voltage on BROWN wire - slow is relative... but seems to be Abnormal.
Somewhat erratic voltage oscillation on the BROWN, WHITE, and ORANGE wires after the throttle switch is turned "on" - ABNORMAL. For future reference I'm going to call this "blinking".
As mentioned, a blinking RED LED indicator. I.E. Not only blinking, but of a relatively LOW voltage indication.


So you have to ask yourself, what could cause these symptoms?

These have been my general working hypotheses...

1) Lack of current from the battery when the controller is powered up.
2) Something shorted after the throttle switch, possibly in the throttle assembly itself.
3) Short in controller circuitry.
4) Error indication.

In troubleshooting you look or choose the most probable solution first to pursue, which eventually may guide you elsewhere.
You also get to choose the direction and jumps made along a path of understanding. I.E. In this case, you could start at the battery output, the throttle assembly, or in the middle so to speak. And travel forward or backward electrically speaking from those points.

The goal is to find where and how to make the blinking stop.(isolate) And then find out what is causing it, or why?


So let's look at the possibilities in depth...

1) Lack of current from the battery when controller powered up.

From the previous discussions in this thread, I thought this to be resolved. Right now it's at the top of my list. And what I would recommend checking for first.
Why?
You can have voltage potential at two test points. I.E. The battery to controller connection. But you don't know how much potential, or specifically, the current capabilities at that point. Often a voltage reading is taken, and after receiving a high voltage reading. It may be assumed to be full power. But can be what I call a "phantom" or ghost voltage. Voltage that has no actual power behind it. Good meters have built in impedance or resistance to counter such erroneous readings. But if just enough power is "leaking" through, it may be deceiving.
This would fit... the problem started after a blown inline charging fuse. And give the controller circuitry enough power to start up, but not enough to keep going. I.E. Cycle or blink.

To eliminate this possibility, do this test...

Modified from the original request, do to the change in order preference to the other tests. (probability ranking)

CAREFULLY check the voltage input at the battery to controller PCB terminals (often large Black and Red wires). Is full battery voltage steady there with all wiring normal, and system powered up. (blinking showed still be happening on the brown wire.

This is to verify that full battery capability is present at the power input connection to the controller after system is powered up.

If O.K. try the other ones...

The bypass test is done with the connector going to the throttle assembly left disconnected.
Having the jumper on the controller connection side only. This will isolate the throttle assembly from the controller, eliminating it from being the possible source of the problem.
Then test for the intermittent voltage power on the BROWN wire.

I don't expect this to allow the motor to operate, or to fix the system. It's just a step taken toward the process of elimination.

And also if the BROWN wire still "blinks" even after the throttle assembly is disconnected and bypassed. And input power to controller is good and steady. Try disconnecting the brake connector. Low probability, but easy to check.




Out of time now... if you feel this is a benefit, I'll continue on the the other hypothesis if requested. Hopefully with the new tests we'll be closer to resolution.

Any questions?

Looking forward to the test results.




Don't mean to be a boar, but sometimes the why of what is asked as far as testing goes, is as important to know, as the test.
You can't fix, what you don't understand.

 

[rick_p]

I plan to investigate all of what you suggested, but since we have kind of gone full circle I thought it would be a good idea to start over and re-check some of the basics, and a few interesting things turned up...

With all connectors connected, and the battery key and throttle switch turned off, I got a reading of 1.5 volts at the wires that supply power to the controller, which might be normal but intuition tells me to expect zero volts.
Then I turned the key on, and got a reading of 32 volts initially, which creeped up to 52 volts after about a minute or so.
Then I pressed the switch at the throttle assembly on, and the voltage pulsed between 24 and 0 volts.
Then I turned the Key and switch off, and the voltage stayed at 52 volts.
Then I turned just the switch on, and all the LED lights flashed, and voltage dropped slowly to less than 1 volt.
Then I disconnected the throttle assembly connector, turned the battery key on, and got an initial reading of 32 volts, which then creeped up to 52 volts.
Then I turned everything off and disconnected all the wiring to the controller, and the red/black power wires from the battery gave a reading of about 1 volt, but would drop quickly to .03 volts or less until I turned the battery key on, and then I got a solid reading of 52 volts. This process could be repeated as long as the controller was not connected at all.

I ordered a controller and throttle assembly, which should be here any minute now. My question at this point is, does it seem like the battery is not the culprit at this point, and would it be safe to wire up the new controller to the battery to see if solves the issue?

 

[TommyCat]

I plan to investigate all of what you suggested

No need... in your own way you gave me exactly what was required.

With all connectors connected, and the battery key and throttle switch turned off, I got a reading of 1.5 volts at the wires that supply power to the controller, which might be normal but intuition tells me to expect zero volts.
Then I turned the key on, and got a reading of 32 volts initially, which creeped up to 52 volts after about a minute or so.
Then I pressed the switch at the throttle assembly on, and the voltage pulsed between 24 and 0 volts.
Then I turned the Key and switch off, and the voltage stayed at 52 volts.
Then I turned just the switch on, and all the LED lights flashed, and voltage dropped slowly to less than 1 volt.
Then I disconnected the throttle assembly connector, turned the battery key on, and got an initial reading of 32 volts, which then creeped up to 52 volts.
Then I turned everything off and disconnected all the wiring to the controller, and the red/black power wires from the battery gave a reading of about 1 volt, but would drop quickly to .03 volts or less until I turned the battery key on, and then I got a solid reading of 52 volts. This process could be repeated as long as the controller was not connected at all.

This all indicates that your battery's BMS is either damaged, or needs to be properly reset.

To try a jumpstart reset, see section 2.2 here...
https://electricbike.com/forum/foru...rging-and-electrical-issues?p=28837#post28837

With a detailed link on jumpstarting here...
https://lunacycle.com/jumping-your-luna-shark-battery-pack/

Also the hard start reset, as seen in section 3.1 here...
https://electricbike.com/forum/foru...rging-and-electrical-issues?p=28838#post28838

See section 2.3 for load testing a battery to verify my diagnosis.

 

[rick_p]

This all indicates that your battery's BMS is either damaged, or needs to be properly reset.

To try a jumpstart reset, see section 2.2 here...
https://electricbike.com/forum/foru...rging-and-electrical-issues?p=28837#post28837

With a detailed link on jumpstarting here...
https://lunacycle.com/jumping-your-luna-shark-battery-pack/

Also the hard start reset, as seen in section 3.1 here...
https://electricbike.com/forum/foru...rging-and-electrical-issues?p=28838#post28838

See section 2.3 for load testing a battery to verify my diagnosis.

This was super helpful, it’s almost a shame I didn’t see these troubleshooting tips in the beginning because it would have saved us all a lot of time. With that said, I learned so much I’m glad we took the long way

I used the troubleshooting tip that bypasses the battery by connecting the charger to the controller, which worked like a charm, everything worked as it would with a good battery. This rules out the charger, the controller, the throttle/switch assembly, and all the associated wiring, we have a battery problem for sure.

I only had time to try the first BMS reset, by charging through the discharge port for 10 seconds, but that didn’t work. The next methods of resetting the BMS are more involved and I’ll need more time to prepare. I will also do the cells testing if I can. My intuition tells me the BMS is faulty, but I will certainly give the advanced reset a try first. If it is bad, it may be difficult to replace because most if not all of the replacements I see would not fit inside the case. First things first though, let’s try the advanced reset.

 

[TommyCat]

I used the troubleshooting tip that bypasses the battery by connecting the charger to the controller, which worked like a charm, everything worked as it would with a good battery. This rules out the charger, the controller, the throttle/switch assembly, and all the associated wiring, we have a battery problem for sure.

Great catch trying this, well done.
Fingers crossed on possible reset...

 

[rick_p]

Great catch trying this, well done.
Fingers crossed on possible reset...

I performed the advanced reset by disconnecting the balance wires connectors and the main positive power supply to the BMS. No luck, it still blinks after reconnecting everything. I also rechecked the voltage of the 14 cell banks after performing this operation, and I'm still getting 4.71 volts on each. I think it's fairly safe to say that the cells themselves look promising, but not the BMS, I think that is where the problem is. I would like to attempt replacing the BMS, but I have a few concerns. I'm not sure of the specs, these things are rated by volts and amps, I know it's 48 volts but I don't know what the amp rating is for mine. There are 13s and 14s type batteries, and they both seem to have 14 wires, I don't know what type mine is. And lastly, the replacements have a single black wire at the first or last position in the connector, I'm fairly sure this is a ground, but I'm not so sure I can verify that one of my outside wires goes to ground. If I can't, I could make a costly mistake trying to match up the wiring.