BionX Questions - Regeneration & Battery Cycles

[Canis Lupus]

I have some questions about battery cycles, but first some background.

For better or worse, I have decided to purchase a BionX system although this isn't set in concrete yet. The main factors setting me on this course are:

1. the weight of the system
2. it's compact looks and tidy appearance
3. quality control
4. superior power management system, informing the rider of battery level better than most rival systems, allowing for greater ability to ration its usage during a long trip, such as when touring.
5. regeneration

It's the last point I wish to ask about to those who may have some technical expertise and/or experience with this system.

Firstly, if the battery is being constantly exposed to regeneration, how does this impact upon the expected number of cycles (lifespan) of the battery. It is said to be 500 before the voltage begins to drop. It's never been clear to me how this idea works in practice. The type of battery I will have will be the same as in a laptop. I hear different things regarding how to make best use of the battery to prolong its life on a laptop. One of which is that the battery should be discharged at least once a month. Another person I knew told me she achieved the best life out of her mobile phone by only charging it after it went flat. My question is this, if the battery is exposed to regeneration going down a big hill, or even as a result of the brakes being applied temporarily, does this count for 1 cycle. How does the battery know, one way or another, the recharge it just received is not a cycle. Sorry if that sounds dumb, but I can't think of a more technical way of putting it.

Secondly, has anyone conducted a thorough test on the regenerative abilities of the BionX system. Is it a gimmick or does it prove a valuable asset on longer trips. Presently, I am Greece. Last summer I did a tour of Greece on a Trice T. It was hard work in July and August when the real heat of Greece made the mountain climbs seem like they had gone up a few degrees also. Eventually, it wore me down a bit and I vowed to get an elect assist to help with the climbs which were proving so difficult. On the flip side, coming down those mountains was a lot of excitement, but a lot of energy was being wasted as my brakes were being given a good work out and heating up. The BionX system with its ability to have varying degrees of regeneration seemed ideally suited to take advantage of this situation while touring. But how much energy would I actually being putting back into the battery and (see 1) would I be shortening the life span of what is quite an expensive battery as a result of using it?

When and if I buy and install a BionX system, one of the first things I intend doing is climbing the nearest long and steep mountain and flatten the battery in doing so. There is no shortage of climbs around here capable of doing that. Then I will descend the mountain while the controller is set to regeneration. Then I will climb the hill again and then see how far up the battery takes me unassisted. All this will be done without adding the variable of pedalling. I intend to buy the 350 system which has the throttle, allowing this. I will do it three or four times, depending upon whether setting 4 provides too much resistance to make the test practical. Each time I will up the regeneration setting from 1 to 4.

Has anyone else done such a test or have information which might prove useful? I am surprised BionX does not provide any practical information on the feature. Maybe that is because the feature doesn't really give much which is worthwhile in terms of energy.

 

[fechter]

From an electrical standpoint, regen does not make a big difference on a bike. Tests done with a similar system indicate that if you go up a long hill and come back down using regen, you might get a maximum of 25% of the original charge recovered under optimum conditions. Generally speaking, more shallow cycles are better for a battery than fewer deep cycles, so regen can help there if properly implemented. A poorly designed regen system could expose the batteries to excessive voltages or heat if used heavily. In practice, it is hard to get enough regen to damage batteries. If you started at the top of a big hill with a full charge and went down, that would be about the only way to overcharge them. If the system is properly designed, the regen will disable when the battery voltage gets too high.

If you have a lot of hills, regen is nice for the added braking ability. This can significantly reduce brake wear and fade on long hills. On flat ground, it really doesn't do much for you.

I don't have any direct experience with the BionX, but all reports are pretty positive and it seems like a well made product.

 

[dak664]

A partial charge is not a cycle, see http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm for prolonging lithium battery lifetime. In general you don't want to charge them to their design limits. Bionx seems to have used a conservative limit for their charger voltage cutoff. There has been speculation as to what happens to the regeneration current when the battery is fully charged, but for longer lifetime you probably don't want to reach that point anyway. Braking regeneration is controlled by a magnet on the rear brake lever so you can adjust the proportion of caliper braking by how hard you squeeze. On a long downhill you'd quickly learn how to end up with 80-90% charge at the bottom.

Braking regeneration typically adds 20% to the range in start and stop city driving. Pedal regeneration depends on how much you prefer the extra drag on the flat stretches compared to the extra effort going up hills. If at all possible do a test ride before deciding. I find I actually prefer a thumb throttle; since I only use it on hills it is easy to modulate to keep the pedal effort constant.

IMO if Bionx keeps their proprietary battery format they will not be able to keep up with the technology and their sales will suffer.

 

[deardancer3]

As a long time Bionx user and occaisonal worker on Bionx systems, let me render my opinions.

First, to me and numerous other Bionx users, the big advantage of the Bionx Regen is not so much regained energy, but E-Braking.

In several ways braking is improved- on long down hills your hands dont cramp from constant squeezing of brake handles, in wet weather the e-brake operates somewhat like great anti-lock braking does.

We have used the regen capability a few times to significant benefit, long down hills, and a few times big tailwinds enabling use of the generation mode. But it was more of a "gee whiz" effect than a "glad for that" ride saver.

Bionx is rather conservative with their regen charging of the battery. With a freshly charged batttery, regen does not try to charge until about 10% of charge is gone. And the charge current allowed is quite moderate.

As mentioned earlier, 5-10% total improvement to the battery depth of discharge increases the number of cycles, not decreases, as long as battery charging guidelines are followed. And Bionx does follow these.

Bionx as a company monitors battery failures. At one time my two year old battery got a free recall to put a safety/longevity "improvement". I did not appreciate the recall until a differnt pack suffered the failure that their improvement prevented. (they put an absolute overtemp sensor on the pack, that if the pack exceeds ~140F the battery is completly disconnected electrically from charging and discharging, which prevents massive overcharging if the little thermistor goes awry).


I would caution you against using the Bionx system on a 26" or bigger wheel as hill climbing without pedal assist. this is not what the Bionx is designed for. It is designed as pedal assist, and you will overheat the motor on a significant climb un less the hill is slight and you are small. If everthing works correctly, you will get a shutdown and no permanent harm will be encountered. If you must, design a test that does not use unassisted hill climbing in your testing. But this is very hard to test accurately due to variations in wind, your speed, and personal wind drag posture.

The meter on the handle bar will show you how much power/energy is being sent to regen, and you will see after you exeed a certain speed, regen braking sends nothing to the battery! It just dumps it to a resistive load.

The regen is progamable in several ways. there has been a recent engineering change on the regen feature, so some of the old graininess is quite reduced.

You can set the maximum braking with brake handle initiated regen as percent of what the maximum could be, this is done while standing still, for long term use.
You can also, as you are riding, push the realtime up down buttons that will engage differnt levels of pedal assist or regen-ebraking without brake handle activation.

Some folks have expressed dissatisfaction with the cost of battery replacement from Bionx, and with the lack of getting other chemistries or bigger AH packs. There are easy ways around the AH improvement issue, but to work around the use of a non Bionx battery , one would have to have a working knowledge of DC electronics and be out of your warranty period.

I hope this helps you with your questions and decision.

Best

d

 

[Canis Lupus]

Thanks for the posts above, giving some valuable information. I am pleasantly surprised by the % stated for recharge. When I bought my Trice T, Neil at ICE was not very positive about the idea of me putting a BionX or electric system on the trike "it's not what their trikes were about". When I discussed the regen option with him, he mentioned something like 2-3% effective - whatever that meant - but it didn't sound very high. He had said their tests had shown this. I later learnt to treat whatever Neil said with a grain of salt and was sorry I listened to him on several points when working out different options for the trike. What I am reading here, is quite different from what he told me, which doesn't surprise me totally. If the recharging is as effective as being indicated in the above posts, then, yes, it would be a very valuable asset when touring, especially somewhere like Greece which is overflowing with mountains everywhere you look.

Also good to read about the battery information. Thanks for the links and info.

My trice has 20" wheels and the system I am looking at is the is P-350. Torque wise this should be fine for hill climbing. Only problem with that system is battery security. It fits into a pack which attaches to the rear rack with velcro straps. Unlike the case which locks onto the bike, this system does not seem very secure against the opportunistic thief. One would have to detach the battery at any stop and take it with you virtually. I might be able to work out an after market solution to that problem, but it is substantially cheaper than PL-350 with the same performance, just the battery attachment system is different. It comes with LthIon battery and is ideally suited to a 20" recumbent I believe.

 

[deardancer3]

If you are getting a rear rack, you can mount the standard egg shell lockable battery pack with standard lockable feature.

You will need an aluminum plate about 10" by 4" and about 2/32" thick. mount the plate to your rack using a drill and some #10 stainless h/w, and with the Bionx mounting instructions and template, and a few trips to the h/w store for random fasteners, you will be done. We had to do this on our folding bike with no water bottle holder. (If your rack already has a solid plate, you may only have to drill water bottle standard mount holes)

I also have one of the velcro packs on a semi-recumbent. It gets to be a pain removing it over the years. It however leaves lots of room for battery modification later if you are of such a mind. There is no physical or electrical imposition that makes you stick with the stock Bionx pack , many Bionx soft pack customers have gone to different rack packs.

The Bionx soft pack does absorb a lot of solar heat in the summer. I have a neon "pillow case" that goes over it and also aids with visibility.

I have no experince with it, but Bionx supposedly has a new flat pack battery system that Trek is going to use. Dont know if it will be available, but, it looks like a winner if it is.

http://www.bionx.ca/products/product-range.php

Best

D

 

[Canis Lupus]

I bought the PL-350 with the hard shell battery case. Presently I have the battery installed in a position which allows the wiring to fit to the engine and controller, but need the extended version to fit it where it would be ideal - on the front water cage near the boom on a trike. The price being charged by BionX for that little piece of wiring is obscene. So far I have found it listed between $50 - $80 on the internet and that is without delivery.

BionX really needs a serious competitor.

 

[deardancer3]

I bought the PL-350 with the hard shell battery case. Presently I have the battery installed in a position which allows the wiring to fit to the engine and controller, but need the extended version to fit it where it would be ideal - on the front water cage near the boom on a trike. The price being charged by BionX for that little piece of wiring is obscene. So far I have found it listed between $50 - $80 on the internet and that is without delivery.

BionX really needs a serious competitor.

Were you ordering the old extended length harness (which had required some electronic changes to the bus driver to make the old bus work) or just the new bus extension cables?

I must say, this i do not undetstand, I thought the new cable system was going to be cheaper.

 

[Canis Lupus]

Were you ordering the old extended length harness (which had required some electronic changes to the bus driver to make the old bus work) or just the new bus extension cables?

I must say, this i do not undetstand, I thought the new cable system was going to be cheaper.

I don't understand myself. All I know is that I require longer wiring for the battery to engine wire. The sites I have visited offering extender wiring advertise only two types, one for the controller to the battery and the other for between the battery and engine.

But that is the least of my problems atm. The controller has gone dead after about three or four times of it turning on. I thought the cause may have been the battery being dead, although last night when I plugged it into the battery, the battery showed plenty of charge. So I grabbed the charger out of the box and plugged it in for the first time just in case. It blew up after about 10 minutes, shorting out my house's power supply, giving off a large spark and awful smell. No matter how many times I disconnect the controller and replug it into the battery, it won't come to life.

Last night I tested this system after installing the engine. It worked fine, but this morning it was a different story.

While on the subject of the installation, it was not an easy process slipping the rear wheel on and off. The axle bolt on the engine is an extremely tight fit for my trike's (Trice T) dropouts and the spacing meant I had to use quite a bit of force to squeeze it in. It's not a process I would want to repeat often - for a flat tyre for example. It is anything but simple.

The tightness of the fitting also made next to impossible to align the notch in the axle to the required 5 degrees range facing directly downwards. By the time I squeezed the wheel with motor on, I reckon it had slipped to something like 15-20 degrees - an angle which would reduce torque and performance. If there is a special tool to adjust this notch, once on, I would like to know about it because I think it is an extremely haphazard or difficult thing to be doing to get it within 5 degrees when putting on the wheel given the tight squeeze.

So far this system has the big thumbs down from me. It worked a little during and immediately after installation, the controller powered up and the engine responded to the controls as it should in assist and regenerative mode. 12 hours later it has totally malfunctioned and is sitting useless.

I had hoped the numerous negative reports I had read about BionX components being faulty were isolated. Unfortunately, my experience would suggest the faults are endemic and anything but isolated. Either the battery is faulty and has somehow caused the charger to blow up and will not power the controller, or two separate components, the controller and charger, have malfunctioned almost immediately independently of each other. Because the spark and pop on the charger came at the side of the charger leading to the power point and not the battery, I tend to think it was not the battery. But that is almost pure guess work. The most obvious explanation is written on the charger - "Made In China". I have little doubt the dead controller or faulty battery was made in the same place.

Made in Canada my arse! Let's see now how BionX honours its warranty. Like the technical problems reported by many users, they have also reported slow responses from BionX when things go wrong. I am not optimistic about that also. I'm afraid I may have spent $1250 on buying a whole lot of overpriced trouble and just at the moment I would advise all others to stay away from this system.

While I am disappointed about all this, having hoped today would be my first out and about with the new system, I had half expected it. As I stated above, I had read enough reports about technical problems with BionX not to be surprised by what has happened. I knew I was taking a gamble and now I am paying the price it seems. Even if these components are fixed or replaced under warranty, I am still left with a system which seems incredibly vulnerable and delicate, given the money paid, and it will probably be another month at least before the new components arrive, assuming BionX and the dealer honour the warranty.

You want to know why China is getting rich and the US and other western economies are going to crap? It's because China spits out crap goods with virtually no quality control and we keep buying it. In the case of cheapies on ebay, you know the risk, but when a Canadian company puts its logo on it, promising quality and charges an arm and leg for it, it's inexcusable.

 

[deardancer3]

Here in the US, this would be the responsibility of the dealership. I know the top 4 Bionx dealers in the USA, and several in Canada. This stuff gets handled by them. dealers are supposed to be competent. They get training materials, installation kits all kinds of special small parts- That they have to pay for.

Guess a dealer earns their $100 installation and precheck charge. However if your dealer only does a few bionx's a year, they dont have the experience of dealing with all of this. Now if you did not have a local dealer ($1250 for a 36v 350w Bionx system? wow) who sold you this system with no support so cheap? Is there a dealer responsible for sales and support in Greece?

I have never done a 9 speed Bionx, we thought that the Freeewheel system was too fragile at 9 speeds. Maybe ok on a trike, maybe not. Tried to do 7 speeds as much as possible. did a few 8's and 6's. Who needs all those speeds when you have a motor?

WE did have a controller power down on the first 5 mile ride, but after completely charging the battery and checking all connectors, this never happened again. I think this is due to the BMS doing its job monitoring the Lith cells. After sitting a month or two, the pack needs a few cycles and a little time on the charger to top off all cells, otherwise the BMs is tripping when a low cell complains. You said you rode without using the charger, and unfortunately your charger was DOA/infant mortality.

My wife rides a Bionx solo. If Bionx wasnt reliable, I would not allow this.

Yes there is a tool for the wheel angle alignment, I saw it on ebay, but your dealer should have one two.

Your charger is probably a HighPower, one of the better charger manufacturers for this market. sounds like it is an initial failure, on the primary side. It is blowing your house fuse and not blowing its own fuse? crazy. WE put every battery on the charger for at least 8 hours before shipping, no customer complaints. (except on my wifes. I shortcutted this step when building it due to tooo much multi tasking that day.

For the battery to engine wire, are you talking the two pin heavy black and red conductor cable? Here I can buy that at the hardware store for $5. Be careful to maintain polarity, some cables switch, some dont.

Proprietary, and high initial cost, yes. For the number of systems shipped, Bionx rate of failure is not high. Its just they ship a high number of kits, and 5% of 1000 would be more than 10% of 100.

You have a trice recumbent 20" wheel 9 speed? Did you discuss rear dropout spec's with anyone before ordering this?

Did you get the new ultra stiff radially spoke thick spoked 2o" wheel? you will be glad you have the rear suspension.

Except for the pack cells, they have a two year warranty.

you might want to look at the two threads about hub motor installation:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14222


http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14195



Give your dealer and Bionx a chance to respond before trashing them.

 

[Canis Lupus]

Give your dealer and Bionx a chance to respond before trashing them.

I wasn't trashing the dealer. He has been very helpful although he has made a couple of slip ups but that is not from want of trying. My beef is with BionX and what steps they take to ensure the QC of the components they commission and are made in China. I still think BionX has designed the best system on the market but whether the system designed is being made according to their specifications and whether those specifications are resilient enough is another issue.

I have heard from the dealer who has provided an explanation for the charger malfunctioning. Unbeknown to me is a switch on the back of the charger for 115-230v. It was set for America's 115volt, not Europe's 230volt, which is odd considering the control console was set to the European speed limit. There is nothing visible on the charger to indicate the existence of the switch, nor was it mentioned in any of the documents provided. Ironic because this issue came to mind before plugging it in. I checked over the specification to make sure I had the right charger for European voltage. Read the rating which said 110-230 and assumed it was right to go. The higher voltage blew it up. Bad as that it is, I am glad it is the explanation although I would have preferred it not to happen.

He has also sent me instructions on how to wake up the battery, which I will have a go at later today.

In regard to the freewheel, I agree that 9 gears are unnecessary, even without the motor. The 3 x 9 set up drove me crazy while touring around Greece, although the range they offered was great. I have an 8 speed 11-32 freewheel on order, mainly to match the rapid fire gear controllers I am taking off a hybrid bike I have and installing on the trike. The twist grip gearing which came with the Trice drives me loopy.

As a matter of more than a little interest, why don't BionX use the Shimano cassette system rather than the now mainly redundant technology of the freewheel? It would certainly save a lot of hassles with gears if they used a cassette system. I could have retained my 9-32 cassette which came with the trike. Even the 11-32 freewheel on order was hard to get. On a 20" wheel a 9 tooth gear is very handy to have. I also have on order from Utah Trikes a High Speed Drive to help compensate for my loss of gearing at the top end because of the BionX system. It's an expense I don't mind because it helps simplifies the gearing anyway, as well as offering greater range with the gears.

 

[deardancer3]

As a matter of more than a little interest, why don't BionX use the Shimano cassette system rather than the now mainly redundant technology of the freewheel? It would certainly save a lot of hassles with gears if they used a cassette system. .

I am no expert on the intracies of freewheel vs freehub. But since hardly any rearhub motor makers use the freehub system, there must be a reason, maybe there is not enough room in the hub with the motor hogging all the real estate?

cost maybe, all motor makers being frugal? Increased problems with complexity? Or maybe... who wants to have their motor changed/swapped/repaired/replaced because the freehub function failed when it was avoidable by using the freewheel system?

I dont know, but if the freehub system is reliable enuff, then I wish it was used by all rear hub makers. the choices are much better.

 

[Canis Lupus]

As a matter of more than a little interest, why don't BionX use the Shimano cassette system rather than the now mainly redundant technology of the freewheel? It would certainly save a lot of hassles with gears if they used a cassette system. .

I am no expert on the intracies of freewheel vs freehub. But since hardly any rearhub motor makers use the freehub system, there must be a reason, maybe there is not enough room in the hub with the motor hogging all the real estate?

cost maybe, all motor makers being frugal? Increased problems with complexity? Or maybe... who wants to have their motor changed/swapped/repaired/replaced because the freehub function failed when it was avoidable by using the freewheel system?

I dont know, but if the freehub system is reliable enuff, then I wish it was used by all rear hub makers. the choices are much better.

I've been told by ICE it is a cost issue. The freehub system, as you term it, requires the payment of royalties to Shimano, whereas the freewheel system is public domain and free to use.

 

[Canis Lupus]

It's disappointing to report the method suggested for waking up the BionX battery has achieved nothing except to show perhaps the battery has a fault and not the command console as I had first thought. The suggested method for waking up the battery is to induce a short circuit between pin A1 and A3 on the battery. The battery should wake up and beep twice in response. Failure to do so may indicate a fault in the battery.

With that test done with no response, the situation appears worse. Instead of just sending the charger and commander back to the US, two items of small dimensions and weight, I'm up for postal charges to send a battery.

When one reads about this crap happening to others, one hopes it never happens to yourself, but when it does you ask, "Why me?" Shit happens but this is bitterly disappointing.

The system I bought was an ex-demo model. It has some slight use, 125 miles of it. I have no problem with the dealer. I tested the system when it first arrived. It worked as it should. He said he did the same before sending it. I believe him. It was well packed, arrived quickly, and the delivery charges were reasonable.

The system was originally installed on a 26" wheel. The dealer, without charge, set it up in a 20" wheel which has the BionX logo on it. When I mentioned to him my need for longer wiring, he offered to send me some from his shop which he has spare.

The lack of any indication of a rear switch on the charger for the voltage was an oversight on his part. He should have either pre-set it for the destination he was sending it to or brought my attention to it, but these things happen even with the best intentions. I don't begrudge that oversight given the willingness he has shown to assist me so far.

I think BionX ought to cop some of the blame for basically concealing the existence of the switch on the charger. It didn't 'mention it in their booklet or on the charger anywhere. I'm as blown as the charger if anyone expects me to bare responsibility for the charger blowing under these circumstance. This isn't a matter of me dodging responsibility, more a matter of what is reasonable under the circumstances. The dealer seems to agree as so far as he is indicating he will replace the charger. Good for him!

Apart from the malfunctions, paying out about $1250, which so far has given me absolutely no satisfaction ( the very opposite) what raises my ire is the hidden costs of a BionX system - the ones never mentioned anywhere. I'd have to include the extender wiring in this category, although it seems from what the dealer said to me that he will send me this for free. But what is interesting about the wiring is that even if I wanted to mount this system on a standard bike, such as my 700cc wheel hybrid, I would still need the extender wiring. The lengths are set up, it seems, for an installation of the battery on the rack, not for the water bottle cage in the frame of a standard bike, as is often pictured in BionX promotion material. The wiring running between the battery and motor is too short, even for a standard bike installation unless the battery is installed on the rack close to the motor. Whereas the wiring between the battery and command console is plentiful. Obviously on a standard bike, whether mountain or hybrid, with the battery installed in the frame the wiring I have is far too long in that respect, while being far too short in another.

Then there is the issue of the aligning of the hitch in the slot. If you get the dealer to do a complete installation, then with the assistance of a tool, this can be aligned easily within the 5 degree specified I assume, but what happens when you need to take the wheel off for a puncture or for some other maintenance reason? Do you need to go to your dealer every time this happens? It seems absurd to think so, that after perhaps suffering a flat tyre in the middle of no-where, repairing it, then being left with a BionX motor not correctly aligned, lacking power and no longer functioning as it should, because of lack of a tool and needing to take it to the dealer at the next opportune time.

Where can I buy this tool, and just as importantly, why doesn't it come standard with the system? BionX advertise this system as a seamless addition to any bike but having to take it back to the dealer after one does something as simple as take the wheel off and put back on is anything but seamless.

Nor do I want to lose the top of my rack to a battery and wiring which doesn't accommodates the most standard of bikes on the market, including a hybrid or recumbent trike. Such wiring ought not to be regarded as an accessory, especially when the expense of that accessory is so incredibly bloated!

If these quite factual and reasonable points of objection are regarded as "trashing" BionX, then my profession must be garbage man. Presently, I am the one getting "trashed", not in words typed or spoken, but via a bank balance which has been lowered with nothing much of worth to show in return via the use of deceptive advertising amongst other things.

 

[deardancer3]

Your troubleshooting started on a saturday morning US time, and it is just now Monday morning.

I realize you are frustrated, but, give the company a little standard business hours time to deal with things.

You are in Greece, hopefully there is something to do while the wheels of business turn.

they are probably snowed in already in Quebec.

 

[alan]

I have a Univega hardtail mountain bike I converted to a commuter with the Bionx PL350 (and road tires, fenders, etc.). This is a standard size men's frame with water bottle mounts in the usual places inside the frame triangle (seat and bottom tube mounts). Installed exactly as with most of the gallery pictures on the Bionx site, and with the standard supplied cables, I had about 3" to spare from the motor to the battery, and over 12" to spare from the battery to controller. Instead of routing straight from the battery to the handlebars (and have loose cable), I routed the controller cable from the battery towards the motor (along with the motor cable), and made a U-turn around the pedal bearings and then up to the controller, leaving nearly all of the wiring invisible underneath the bike. That is, I think the standard cable length from Bionx is perfect for most conventional bikes, as it should be.

With regards to the drop-out notch which has to be aligned vertically, or adjusted to the angle of the wheel drop-out with the special Bionx tool, my dealer asked me to measure my drop-out angle, and then he set the notch before sending me my kit. He also asked about the frame to make sure I would not need any extension cables.

If there had been hidden costs for me with the Bionx system, as suggested, I would have been posting about it here. My system is just over 1 year old, has over 4000 miles on it, and so far has only had one minor problem. My dealer has been sending me components to swap out to find the cause of the problem (occasional system freezes - console freeze with power cut, easily resettable while riding). I couldn't ask more from my dealer or Bionx to help with this minor nuisance. I expect to pay for the return shipping, but other than my time swapping components, that should be my only added costs. If I did not feel this was fair, I would ask for shipping reimbursement, but I do think this is a fair way to handle warranty issues (except for a system that has a very early failure, or is DOA, where I would ask for shipping reimbursement).

The Bionx system is expensive, but I have ridden nearly a dozen other e-bikes before and since purchasing, including converted bikes with Wilderness and Cyclone, Chinese import bikes, and factory bikes from Giant, Schwinn, eZip, and Ultra. None of these other systems perform as well as the Bionx (IMHO), and the extra features of the Bionx, such as the multifunction display controller and regeneration capabilities are just icing on the cake for me.

-- Alan

 

[Canis Lupus]

If there had been hidden costs for me with the Bionx system, as suggested, I would have been posting about it here. My ... me.

-- Alan

Well, Alan, you can hardly believe how pleased I am that everything is ok with YOU. I found your post so helpful, so full of practical advice, so acknowledging of the problems I am experiencing, that I decided to read it aloud to my battery.

Unlike me, it remained unstirred, nor did the wires extend, nor did the hitch in the engine's axle true itself within the 5 degree range for optimal performance, and alas, the charger was totally unimpressed, remaining burnt out. My dealer, however, did send me some good news that he would replace the charger upon return of the one I have under warranty. Also, he sent some practical instructions for checking the fuse in the battery. Hopefully, fingers crossed even, it is the fuse and the cure is simple.

I was tempted to print your post out, Alan, and then rub it like sandpaper over the BionX system to see if that made any difference, but the paper I have is only of the ordinary everyday variety and I couldn't imagine its quality doing your words justice. I'd probably have to upgrade the ink in my printer as well.

I don't know why it was, Alan. but I was reminded very much of the bushhfires at the beginning of this year which swept through small Australian towns leaving some houses totally burnt out, and others, even those next door to the desolation, totally unaffected. Then I had this image of the occupier of the undamaged house, going about his business, tendering his lovely unburnt out garden, as if nothing happened next door, whistling a happy tune.

The main thing is, Alan, you're all right, isn't it?

Thank you deardancer in your posts for even acknowledging my frustrations and the validity of my experiences. I can now see, thanks to Alan, the feat is not as easily achieved as I first imagined. It is extremely easy to give the impression of denial of another person's experience, especially when using ill-advised little phrases like "as suggested", which itself suggests a great deal.

- Chris

 

[deardancer3]

Canis, if you want/need people to help you, do you think that ridiculing folks will further your cause just because they are not in the same plight as you?

d

 

[Canis Lupus]

Canis, if you want/need people to help you, do you think that ridiculing folks will further your cause just because they are not in the same plight as you?

d

You've got things the wrong way around. You're not a bad chappey, but you do misread things a little, probably because you are a BionX dealer and feeling a little anxious about bad publicity. First you accuse me of attacking my dealer, when I wasn't and now you think that I am the one wanting/needing help. I'd appreciate any suggestions, but that isn't the purpose of my posts. The OP of this thread sought information, but in terms of the problems I am reporting upon, I am the one helping others, not others me.

Alan was the one doing the ridiculing, although it was subtle, possibly didn't even realise he was doing it. When I embark on ridicule, by contrast, there's no mistaking it. He certainly wasn't being helpful to me although I can see how a BionX dealer might come to the conclusion he was helpful. There was nothing being offered by Alan by way of fixing the problems I am experiencing. It basically amounts to a denial of my problems. Thankfully my dealer has been offering some practical suggestions, providing real help by contrast and I reckon I've made some progress on a few fronts.

For those who may experience similar problems in the future, this thread may prove helpful. Just like other posts I have read about purchasers of the BionX system having technical problems. They aren't short in number.

The fuse in the battery needed replacing. I bought two thankfully and later bought another four, for good reason. I've worked out the problem is stemming from the wiring at the motor.The battery when plugged into the command console only doesn't blow a fuse, but once the motor is connected, it does. The original two fuses I bought were blown while working this out. So battery is ok, command console ok!

I reckon I've worked out how this happened also. It stems from me testing the system and a convergence of a couple of other factors. The package arrived with only one axle nut. Not to worry, I thought, I'll just get another one from my local bike shop, however, it wasn't that simple, mainly because BionX haven't made it simple. Although the size is standard for these nuts, the thread is peculiar and none of the nuts at my local shop would fit - not the diameter of the nut ( that was ok) but the thread of a standard nut simply would not wind onto the axle. If you look at some BionX dealer's sites you can see this particular nut is available for sale as an accessory. It is overpriced, just like everything BionX, but still cheap. I saw it for $2.50 on one site. It seems using some things commonly available like a standard axle nut is not acceptable when it adds up to something BionX can sell and keep in-house, but the opposite applies when it comes to the gearing which attaches to these motors because that saves BionX money ie the freewheel. BionX charge you an arm and leg, but still they skimp on the little things to maximise their profits. My local bike shop gave me the nut despite it not fitting properly - that's how simple and cheaply that problem could have been solved if only the fitting was standard.

Anyway, when testing the motor on a stand, I reckon the wires twisted and were damaged because there was only one nut on it and this is causing the fuse in the battery to blow. I will wrestle with the wheel later to get it off and have a closer look, but I am pretty confident that's the problem. I might be able to fix it or my local auto electrician might, rather than having to send the motor and wheel back to the US.

A couple of points here which may prove helpful to prospective buyers - the point of my posts, after all. If you have a dealer close at hand to do all this for you, like Alan, I can't see the purchaser having too many problems. The way BionX make their products, however, it is obvious they don't want the user to do much fiddling or local sourcing of accessories, despite the convenience and advantages that might present to the consumer. My problems to some extent could have been avoided if both axle nuts were sent by the dealer or I had waited for the second one to arrive (maybe two weeks away), or I could have purchased a standard one locally which fitted - but that wasn't possible.

It would have also have helped if the wheel with the motor in it was easier to fit, given what is required with the alignment. BionX provide no detailed instructions about all this, nor tools. I discovered some information only by watching the Power In Motion youtube video which deals with installation. The user guide is silent and BionX offers no downloads for consumers to help. If you are bit more isolated from a dealer to do this work for you, it's a different story to Alan's. BionX puts up little barriers which help to make you dependant on the dealer and itself.

One other issue I will deal with while I am posting. There was another thread on this forum which turned into a flame war, when one poster had the audacity to suggest that BionX was overpriced and its components made in China, like just about all the other electric motors on the market ie. made In China. He also asserted that the factory BionX had in Canada, where they claimed to make their components, was for show - a con. I still don't know whether that is true or not, but the evidence before me suggests that poster was more correct than wrong. The chargers says quite clearly it is "Made In China" and the fact that BionX uses the freewheel gearing system also suggests that, like other electric motors being manufactured in China doing the same thing to cut costs, BionX motors are no different in their source.

I hope this has been helpful to anyone imagining they are buying a product from BionX which is made in Canada, with all that it is supposed to imply about quality and justifications concerning price. In Australia, we have what is called the ACCC to help protect consumers from misleading and deceptive advertising. If BionX is asserting their system is manufactured in Canada, the claim appears to be false, at least for the motor and charger. The charger certainly isn't.

What companies sometimes do under these circumstances is broaden their meaning of the word "made" to include ideas like assemble, even at the very last stage of wholesale distribution ie. al;though all the components are made elsewhere because they put the SYSTEM together into one productand badge it, they say it is made locally, giving the impression to consumers it is all made locally. This is disingenuous and far from being honest and is not the information the consumer thinks he is getting when he reads, "Made in Australia", or in this case "Made in Canada". The consumer thinks one thing, but the company knows that isn't true, concealing the real idea or their definition from the common consumer. It's market semantics at the expense of being honest with consumers. Legislators in Australia have been pretty quick to crack down on this type of misleading information by companies, but Canada may not be the same.

 

[deardancer3]

aww schucks, Canis, you dont have to be so nice to me.
Not a Bionx dealer, Just a good old country boy, a guy that helps out with all the ebikes I see; learn as much as i can over the last 8 years.

Found a nut and bolt in my junk box that worked good on the bionx. might take it to the h/w store someday to see what the threads are.

d

 

[Canis Lupus]

aww schucks, Canis, you dont have to be so nice to me.
Not a Bionx dealer, Just a good old country boy, a guy that helps out with all the ebikes I see; learn as much as i can over the last 8 years.

Found a nut and bolt in my junk box that worked good on the bionx. might take it to the h/w store someday to see what the threads are.

d

I'm only being nice to you because I want your nuts.

 

[deardancer3]

looks like the threads on my motor the latest, version 4, is a 10mm by 1.0, an extra fine. sometimes found at auto stores.

Dont know about other motors, probably the same mechanically. but you still need that special nut with the washer with the slashes. I presume that is being sent with your replacement charger.

d

edit that is M10 by 10 xfine thread.

http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=0114050

Metric Hex Nut.
Property Class 8
DIN 934.
Zinc plated for corrosion resistance.
Diameter/Extra Fine Pitch: M10– 1.00
Width Across Flats: 17mm
Thickness: 8mm

 

[alan]

Alan was the one doing the ridiculing, although it was subtle, possibly didn't even realise he was doing it. When I embark on ridicule, by contrast, there's no mistaking it. He certainly wasn't being helpful to me although I can see how a BionX dealer might come to the conclusion he was helpful. There was nothing being offered by Alan by way of fixing the problems I am experiencing. It basically amounts to a denial of my problems. Thankfully my dealer has been offering some practical suggestions, providing real help by contrast and I reckon I've made some progress on a few fronts.
...

No, I was not ridiculing, nor was I trying to help you. I was trying to add some balance to your emotional dumping on Bionx, so as to give other readers a fairer picture of what the Bionx system is. You seem to be taking that personally. Sorry. Here are some better reasons to take my words personally...

Yes, you do have some serious problems with Bionx, and your attitude is not helping yourself get a solution. I am not denying your problems, but I do believe you are not helping others with your characterization of the problems you have.

I agree with you that there should have been a warning on the charger to check the voltage setting, and that your dealer should have preset it for you. I suspect that the warning to set the charger input voltage is included in your instructions as they are in mine, but perhaps the separate warning label that was taped to my charger was not attached to yours. The 110/220 voltage slider switch is easily seen by the AC cord and on/off rocker switch in any case. You may have a different charger, however. Did yours come with the correct plug, or did you have to use an adapter for the US/Canadian style plug (which should have been an immediate tip off to check the voltage setting)?

I disagree with you about the cables, as I already said, that the standard cable lengths as shipped are appropriate for the average bike.

Yes the charger is made in China, but Bionx makes it very clear on their website that the motor is made in Canada, and the battery pack is assembled in Canada. If I recall, the circuit boards are also made in Canada. This is the one area where you add mostly attitude and little information.

BTW, my dealer is about 1000 miles away from me, hardly local.

-- Alan

 

[Canis Lupus]

looks like the threads on my motor the latest, version 4, is a 10mm by 1.0, an extra fine. sometimes found at auto stores.

Dont know about other motors, probably the same mechanically. but you still need that special nut with the washer with the slashes. I presume that is being sent with your replacement charger.

d

edit that is M10 by 10 xfine thread.

http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=0114050

Metric Hex Nut.
Property Class 8
DIN 934.
Zinc plated for corrosion resistance.
Diameter/Extra Fine Pitch: M10– 1.00
Width Across Flats: 17mm
Thickness: 8mm

Thanks for that info.

 

[Canis Lupus]

No, I was not ridiculing, nor was I trying to help you. I was trying to add some balance to your emotional dumping on Bionx, so as to give other readers a fairer picture of what the Bionx system is. You seem to be taking that personally. Sorry. Here are some better reasons to take my words personally...

Yes, you do have some serious problems with Bionx, and your attitude is not helping yourself get a solution. I am not denying your problems, but I do believe you are not helping others with your characterization of the problems you have.

I agree with you that there should have been a warning on the charger to check the voltage setting, and that your dealer should have preset it for you. I suspect that the warning to set the charger input voltage is included in your instructions as they are in mine, but perhaps the separate warning label that was taped to my charger was not attached to yours. The 110/220 voltage slider switch is easily seen by the AC cord and on/off rocker switch in any case. You may have a different charger, however. Did yours come with the correct plug, or did you have to use an adapter for the US/Canadian style plug (which should have been an immediate tip off to check the voltage setting)?

I disagree with you about the cables, as I already said, that the standard cable lengths as shipped are appropriate for the average bike.

Yes the charger is made in China, but Bionx makes it very clear on their website that the motor is made in Canada, and the battery pack is assembled in Canada. If I recall, the circuit boards are also made in Canada. This is the one area where you add mostly attitude and little information.

BTW, my dealer is about 1000 miles away from me, hardly local.

-- Alan

Alan, it was good of you to be honest about not helping - not me at least. We agree on that point, if not much else. I was tempted to post some pictures of the charger to show the lack of warning about the voltage switch and also how well the switch is concealed and small the voltage numbering is on the back, but I couldn't be bothered with you. You keep misinterpreting my posts for your own personal, and no doubt, emotional reasons. I doubt even a photo will satisfy your scepticism. I had to put on my glasses and position the back of the charger in good light to even make out the numbering on the switch. Even then, it wasn't obvious it was a switch until I played around with it a bit. As I stated in my previous post, I was alerted to the issue of voltage, checked the specs written and it seemed ok. I don't know why you are writing something as condescending as "which should have been an immediate tip off to check the voltage setting", when I have already made it clear it was something I thought of prior to connecting it.

I have chargers and transformers for other electrical items which are rated for the same range of voltage. They do not make use of a switch.

There are two warnings on the charger, one about using it only to charge a Li-Ion battery and the other saying "Made In China". The first warning is interesting because the battery isn't Li-ion., it's Li-Mn, but on some issues one isn't expected to be too literal although in determining the expectation it is often guess work. The only documents sent to me with the system is a user guide. No mention of the switch is made in it. I stated that before, but still you suspect something contrary to what I have already stated - another form of denial.

Anyone who believes BionX's claims without question is a little foolish IMO. It is obvious they gouge on price at every opportunity and that should be "an immediate tip off" to anyone. The more I examine the system, looking beyond its outer appearance, the more obvious to me how poorly manufactured it is in its details, and the more it resembles typically made in China goods. Even something as basic as the space provided for the securing nut on the battery case, is liable to get the nut jammed in the wrong position, creating problems which need not be present with something better manufactured or thought out.

Still though the system has some of the best features on the market. While the regeneration system appeals to some like deardancer because of its braking , it is its ability to assist and prolong battery life on tours where I am confronted with regular steep climbs up mountains, such as when touring Greece, that makes it most appealing to me. I might come to appreciate the braking when I experience it because one little incident in Kalamata when I had to slam on the trike's brakes suddenly resulted in the rear wheel lifting. Potentially, this can damage the front chain rings on a trike, even if it has a guard. Even without the regenerative breaking though, the extra weight of the rear wheel with the motor in it, may help to prevent the rear wheel lifting in a sudden braking situation.

The issue with BionX is whether some of the extra features offered are worth the incredible mark-up, when compared to some of the other systems available, such as the BMC geared motors, which can be obtained at quite reasonable prices if you shop around. Once I get the set up right and experience the system's features in action, I will be in a better position to judge. I also intend to install an alternative system on a 700cc rear wheel trike I want to purchase, setting it up for greater speed around town in Sydney, where cycle paths are rare and motorists incredibly aggressive and hostile against slow moving bicyclists who they think should not be allowed on the roads. Once I have better knowledge of both systems, I'll be in a good position to judge, but just at the moment from what I am seeing, I am leaning towards regretting that I didn't go for the BMC system straight up.

The battery case system and regeneration feature, swayed my decision BionX's way, despite the extra cost.

In regard to BionX's pricing, it is interesting to observe there appears to be no economies of scale occurring, not at this stage at least. The latest system is priced at $2000, and the prices of their lesser systems remain unaltered. Often when a company introduces a newer, better product, it means the lesser products are made a little redundant and go down in price. Not with BionX. It's another excuse to introduce a price hike. I'm sure there is an economic term about the market which BionX is aiming at and how they go about their business in its exploitation, but ultimately it is pretty revealing about what BionX's priorities are. No-one should be expecting a business to act as a charity, but if someone is going to charge a hefty premium, then they ought to ensure they don't give punters room to complain.