Car Replacement DIY E-Bike Journey (Appreciate guidance!)

[Gorillazilla]

Ello everyone, This is the Start of the Ebike Rabbit hole for me, Still a lot of things undecided so I will really Appreciate suggestions.



One thing I have decided is to start it with Quality, Just picked up 350 Japanese made Panasonic NCR18650PF cells from Nkon
https://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/li-ion/18650-size/panasonic-ncr18650pf-3-7v-2900mah.html

Leaving some cells left over to compensate for possible shortfall in numbers due to defects, and also for Calendar aging capacity testing along side the heavily cycled pack of the same cells.





This is going to be a Big ole battery! Around 14S24P 52V Rear rack mounted as that's the only place I can fit a Pack this size.
The reasons for the Size are for no worries about touring range in hilly Wales while staying in the 80% Charged to 20% charged states.

Essentially only using 60% of the batteries capacity to maximise total Watt hours out lifespan.
Also as a camping and work power supply utilising an inverter.





I'm going to build it in 24Cell Parallel Modules, Utilizing the CELL LEVEL FUSING sheets on the Negative terminal side from Battery Hookup
https://batteryhookup.com/collections/cell-level-nickel-fuse/products/nickel-fuse-2p-wide-continuous-roll-by-the-foot-18650-cell-level-fusing?variant=34549080457378

So that in the Unlikely event of a cell failing in a dead short, the other cells in Parallel will blow the fuse when they begin to discharge through the Defective cell, Isolating it and preventing the other cells from dumping all their energy into it.

And just normal Nickel strips connecting the Positive terminals


I'm only using the Cell level fusing on one side, to increase the reliability of the fuses and reduce resistance
In part due to information from this video

"Double fuse adds resistance in the shorting loop, that lowers the max short circuit current, might be just enough so the fuse doesn't blow. "
https://youtu.be/iL6Td8R5C1g





Drive will be a 3KW Cyclone Mid Drive for Climbing hills while Pulling a load, either passenger or cargo in trailer.






I have not currently fully decided on which Bicycle to use (though I do have An old basic hard tail MTB to use if needed)


So suggestions on a good Solid widely used well known and reliable bike to build an Ebike with would be appreciated!

Comfort first, preferably with provisions for an Upright Seating posture because I have a Bit of a dodgy Tech neck.


A Multi Connection point seatpost rack Like this "Might" open up the possibility of using a Full suspension Bike for comfort, I have No intention of any form of jumping, careful A to B Touring and BikePacking so May be OK
https://youtu.be/KHwzeQNrQlo

 

[Chalo]

Seatpost rack, no. Not with a 40 pound battery pack.

If this really is a car replacement for you, and you really want a mid drive, plan on building two bikes. Mid drives chew things up when you use them daily. You'll need a fallback option for when you're problem solving or waiting for parts.

I think you should consider a cargo bike, both to provide a good place for your battery pack and to give you a resource for shopping or errand running.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Damn, thats a bigass battery!

Before you get deadset on a motor type, help us to help you think out some stuff- like, how far will you take this? How far and what areas are 90% of your trips? How hilly is your region? Like Chalo says- and I wanted the EXACT same as you did when I first started!- that Cyclone kicks ass until you realize it's pumping 30 times the power of an average human, and bike parts were NOT meant to take that kind of shock. There's a reason it seems like we're the hub motor mafia around here sometimes :lol:

Also, seconded on cargo bike. That could also allow you to split your battery pack into 2 halves in the frame, to lower your polar inertia and make it far less rear-heavy.

 

[E-HP]

I would test the bike first by strapping a 50lb weight to the rack and try riding around for a couple miles. do a few emergency maneuvers like you're avoiding an obstacle, people or cars, and a few panic stops and sharp corners going fast and slow. don't plan on using a kickstand.

 

[LewTwo]

Agree with regards to the cargo bike. Actually I would take it a step further: a light weight battery (8-10 pounds) for the bike and two heavy blocks at the bottom of a travoy style trailer.

 

[electric_nz]

Speaking from experience, a 14s 5p battery on a rear rack is nearly enough to cause an inadvertent uncontrollable wheelie on a standing start launch uphill, suggest you will need counterweight at the front with that giant battery (maybe a front wheel hub?)

how far are you travelling in a day? My 12ah battery with cyclone 3k gets me 20km per day absolutely flat out and up large hills, without really pedalling. It’s much easier to take a small charger with you and have a compact battery that can be removed and charged at office etc.

I’m using cheapo 8 speed Shimano cluster and it just eats the clusters, I think the 7 speed I used with the cyclone 1680 was more durable actually. While the cyclone is very reliable this is one factor as to why I’ll probably move to a hub motor for my next build. The cyclone is a hell of a lot of fun though.

With regards to cell level fusing, keep in mind that each cell basically already has this- there are safety mechanisms in each cell; and no commercial manufacturers seem to bother with this for ebike batteries.

 

[nicobie]

With a battery of that size be sure to pick a bike with a steel frame as you will be needing to weld the stress cracks such a heavy load will cause. As has been mentioned, don't think of using a seat post clamped rear rack. Rear suspension won't work as it's hard to find a decent rack that can clamp on to it.

With such a large battery, IMHO you are limited to either a cargo bike or a trailer.

 

[calab]

Please keep in mind the frame, do not pick a frame with holes in the tubing for cable routing.
Steel is the best choice for frame.

 

[Gorillazilla]

Ok, Smashing Suggestions

Ok Chalo so seatpost rack is out, I can deal with HardTail as that was my first option anyway. Full suspension was just something to explore.

And I may end up building two bikes as you say, One Cargo Bike possibly and the other a full suspension MTB with a lighter pack for variety.


My region is pretty dang hilly Shouting, North wales and there's a few places I like going that need SERIOUS hill climbing capability, the Great Orme in Llandudno for example.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/53.3387789,-3.8488357/53.3320235,-3.8543158/@53.3310821,-3.8517914,2602m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2!5m2!1e4!1e3


And pretty far uphill too, Places like Llanberis and general touring around hilly Wales
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/53.2800543,-3.8292989/53.1246994,-4.132438/@53.2800697,-3.8296556,192m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2!5m2!1e3!1e4

I already have the 3KW Cyclone with a mountain of spare parts for it, and I plan on running a Low chain tension setup with as large a rear cassette Granny gear as possible and baby it so the load shouldn't be too excessive, The cyclone is there to just haul me up steep hills gradually like a Roller Coaster lift mechanism.


And funny you suggest hub motor, as that's also what I was planning. As the Cyclone is really rather quite inefficient at low power for 15mph cruising on the flat.
I was planning to put a Maximum efficiency low power direct drive on the front hub for cruising, as well as regenerative braking while coasting downhill. With such a large battery it will easily be able to safely recapture a lot more of the energy than most other E-Bikes with smaller batteries which actually waste most of it due to having to current limit the regen to avoid charging the battery at too high a C rate.


E-HP, I've already done a little weight testing on the rear rack with an old pack from an E-Dirt Bike that is just slightly smaller and lighter than my planned pack, and seems fine handling wise for how I plan to ride this bike, no downhill trails for sure. Just Careful A to B

Having an extended battery actually in the trailer does make a lot of sense LewTwo, to increase the capacity when it's REALLY needed when hauling stuff.
How do you even go about doing that safely? Louis Rossman had an issue with separate Parallel packs that caused a serious fire, luckily OUTSIDE his house
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCaDz_2YcGQ



I did think of the wheelie problem due to the weight on the rear rack electric_nz, hence the Idea of a Direct Drive hub on the front forks to help counter the weight a little, as well as very low gearing with a Granny Gear on the rear cassette combined with careful starts

I don't mind dealing with the Drawbacks of such a large battery, as for me the pros outweigh the cons since this is a Utility bike and possibly mobile PowerStation for powering tools on location through an inverter.

I Actually need to replace the rear Cassette completely on the current bike I intend to start with as it's near worn out anyway, any good suggestions that include the possibility for the largest Granny gear possible?


Cell level fusing is actually easier to build in this case due to the Cell level fusing sheets, Slap em on and couple spot welds per cell, no need to overlay and weld more strips on top. Plus it's extra peace of mind when dealing with Li-on cells.



As for seatpost rear rack Nicobie, though it's kind of ruled out. THIS did look Promising due to it securing to the Seat itself as well as the seat post. Multiple connection points and as good as being welded to the frame almost. Though I'd be worried about Literally Snapping the Seatpost off!
https://youtu.be/KHwzeQNrQlo


Good Point Calab on that little detail, I'll check my current donor frame does not have holes cut into it in structural areas!

 

[99t4]

I was planning to put a Maximum efficiency low power direct drive on the front hub for cruising, as well as regenerative braking while coasting downhill. With such a large battery it will easily be able to safely recapture a lot more of the energy than most other E-Bikes with smaller batteries which actually waste most of it due to having to current limit the regen to avoid charging the battery at too high a C rate.

Makes sense that a larger batter can accept more regen current but can that low power dd hub produce it?

That aluminum rack that's in your photo there is not going to last long riding with that battery on it.

 

[LewTwo]

Having an extended battery actually in the trailer does make a lot of sense LewTwo, to increase the capacity when it's REALLY needed when hauling stuff.
How do you even go about doing that safely? Louis Rossman had an issue with separate Parallel packs that caused a serious fire, luckily OUTSIDE his house
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCaDz_2YcGQ

Louis had a problem that he ultimately blamed on the quality of the battery pack builds. You are building your own packs. So can we start with assuming better build quality?

How I would do it??? Well first I would start with two packs and parallel them on the trailer with connections that could be physically separated. Two identical packs should discharge evenly. That way if one develops a problem half way to Timbuktu then it can be disconnected and one can proceed with the other. I would also likely install a switch or connector box on the bike that would allow one to select either the trailer batteries or the bike battery. Run off the trailer batteries and consider the bike battery the "reserve".

By the way do you know what a "Travoy Style" trailer looks like?

It should sit at an angle of about 60 degrees so most of the weight is on the trailer wheels. I also prefer the hitch to be on the rear rack centered above the rear wheel. Putting the packs at the bottom of the trailer keeps the wight down low improving the handling of the bike and the trailer. I regularly haul about 50-60 pounds of groceries on my travoy trailer. If I had it do over again then I would likely build my own and screw the folding capability ... I have never folded it since I first got it years ago.

 

[Gorillazilla]

Makes sense that a larger batter can accept more regen current but can that low power dd hub produce it?

That aluminum rack that's in your photo there is not going to last long riding with that battery on it.

500W direct drive on the front hub, does this also mean around 500W Continuous regen? Or are these motors less efficient when acting as a dynamo and heat up more per watt generated while regen braking?

Around 400W should be fine for long downhill coasting to limit speed on descent provided the hill is not too steep and requiring assistance from the Mechanical brakes.


The rear rack does state 25KG max load, Battery will be around 16 to 18 KG I won't be doing any fast downhill on rough tracks with this, Tarmac and dirt/Gravel roads only.... Should be alright?

 

[Gorillazilla]

Louis had a problem that he ultimately blamed on the quality of the battery pack builds. You are building your own packs. So can we start with assuming better build quality?

How I would do it??? Well first I would start with two packs and parallel them on the trailer with connections that could be physically separated. Two identical packs should discharge evenly. That way if one develops a problem half way to Timbuktu then it can be disconnected and one can proceed with the other. I would also likely install a switch or connector box on the bike that would allow one to select either the trailer batteries or the bike battery. Run off the trailer batteries and consider the bike battery the "reserve".

By the way do you know what a "Travoy Style" trailer looks like?

It should sit at an angle of about 60 degrees so most of the weight is on the trailer wheels. I also prefer the hitch to be on the rear rack centered above the rear wheel. Putting the packs at the bottom of the trailer keeps the wight down low improving the handling of the bike and the trailer. I regularly haul about 50-60 pounds of groceries on my travoy trailer. If I had it do over again then I would likely build my own and screw the folding capability ... I have never folded it since I first got it years ago.

I enjoy building things right, so hopefully.


And no, I didn't actually know what a Travoy style trailer was. looks a little awkward actually but maybe acceptable for occasional use when maximum range is needed.

 

[LewTwo]

And no, I didn't actually know what a Travoy style trailer was. looks a little awkward actually but maybe acceptable for occasional use when maximum range is needed.

It is not actually ... well at least not when hitched to the rear rack. It also has the advantage of being easier to maneuver due to the short length ... unless you try to back it up. The difficulty is coming up with those 12-1/2x1.75x2-1/4 (47-203) Wheels/Tires. I have not found them used on anything else. Perhaps they are used on push scooters.

 

[Chalo]

The difficulty is coming up with those 12-1/2x1.75x2-1/4 (47-203) Wheels/Tires. I have not found them used on anything else. Perhaps they are used on push scooters.

Mostly on little teeny kids' bikes, baby joggers and such. Kick scooters too. They're available everywhere for cheap.

https://www.jbi.bike/site/product_details.php?part_number=60296

The bike shop where I work would sell them for $14-15 based on their wholesale cost.

 

[LewTwo]

The difficulty is coming up with those 12-1/2x1.75x2-1/4 (47-203) Wheels/Tires. I have not found them used on anything else. Perhaps they are used on push scooters.

Mostly on little teeny kids' bikes, baby joggers and such. Kick scooters too. They're available everywhere for cheap.

https://www.jbi.bike/site/product_details.php?part_number=60296

The bike shop where I work would sell them for $14-15 based on their wholesale cost.

The tires yes .... the wheels are a different matter.
I have have found them advertised in a couple of places but just try to order a set.

 

[Chalo]

The tires yes .... the wheels are a different matter.
I have have found them advertised in a couple of places but just try to order a set.

https://skywaywheels.com/products_005.htm

Whether they offer a compatible hub I don't know, but they offer a variety of hubs.

 

[Gorillazilla]

A box arrived today...

A veritable sea of Cells, and perhaps my first problem.




It looks like they have sent me two different grades of cells...

about 6 Boxes of C Grade, and 6 Boxes of D grade. I've checked and the cells inside the boxes are indeed the different C and D Grades.


Will this be a problem with them all going into the same battery pack?

Should I send them back and ask they send me all the same grade and date code?

 

[Zynode]

Personally i would say no to rear-rack or a wheel cart for your battery. That just sounds like making a problem. If i wanted a battery of huge size then i'd do it the enduro way - put in in the triangle. It also distributes the weight evenly. And in case of a crash seems like a much better spot for batteries to be in.

You also might be interested in DatEbikeGuy on youtube. He built an enduro ebike with ~3kW battery. The rear rack has a mounted gasoline generator for charging anywhere. It sounded very loud lol. He did 1000 km throttle only trip.

EDIT: Also i would not electrify a cheap bike. My experience commuting regular cheap bicycle was awful. Frame material, fork material, disc brakes, good headset. I'm too spoiled now. Sank so much money into a cheapo bike but it was futile effort. The frame was old, very bad tolerances, rusting and undersized for me. And Rim brakes. Oh man. I'd ride after adjusting them and then they weaken and then they are so weak they don't stop much but i still rode it cuz i'm lazy from adjusting them xD.

 

[calab]

You should have bought a used brand name bicycle rather then a bicycle shaped object from BikesDirect or Walmart.
It all depends on what and how you will ride.

Slow speed cruiser, cheap Walmart cruiser is fine with a hub motor.

High speed commuter or ski hill trails with jumps, new brand name downhill bicycle is fine with either md or hub.

Dont know how to connect 10 pairs of 2 wires together with 2 pairs needing connectors or you dont know how to maintain a bicycle then an expensive local bicycle store ebike is fine.

I was at a bicycle store the other day, I see now some of the batteries are encased in the frame :lol: unless it was just an oversized downtube with the battery not in the rear rack, or more likely I was just on the wrong side of the bike.
Prime example is this one here Specialized Turbo Vado SL 4.0 EQ Step-Through
Ouch, how to get frocked over with a smile from Specialized :lol:

Fully integrated and secure Specialized 320Wh downtube battery w/optional Range Extender compatibility for up to 120 miles of range.

This is obviously removable from one side, Electra Townie Path Go! 10D Step-Thru

Every time I look at the price tag on those bicycles I think of the most awesomeness ebike I could build.
Would have to be FS, plus tires to fit a max of 3.00 but would use 2.60 tires, probably 29" with appropriate motor gearing whether hub kv or md gears. Most brand name DH frames have batter placement issues, which might lead me towards a steel framed suitcase frame from from Alibaba with reinforced welds, beefed up suspension mounts. If I wanted a maneuverable trail riding, limited jumper the deal with battery placement on DH.

 

[Gorillazilla]

You should have bought a used brand name bicycle rather then a bicycle shaped object from BikesDirect or Walmart.
It all depends on what and how you will ride.

Slow speed cruiser, cheap Walmart cruiser is fine with a hub motor.

What would you suggest? I can stretch my budget to replace this Apollo Evade Bike shaped object (got it for free) for something more suitable with a steel frame

Comfort is paramount here because I have a dodgy neck and want to be able to cruise around 15MPH for the best part of a day, So upright position with a lower seat and higher handlebars.

I like this Fiido T1 Cargo/Utility bike a LOT
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EbUdvWrcLM
especially for those spoke and maintenance free wheels, especially considering the weight they would have to carry on the rear rack with a 14KG or so battery

That Fiido T1 wouldn't be suitable for me though, because I need ample hill climbing capability due to living in hilly wales.

 

[99t4]

Comfort is paramount here because I have a dodgy neck and want to be able to cruise around 15MPH for the best part of a day, So upright position with a lower seat and higher handlebars.

Most diamond frame bikes you can achieve this by lowering the seat and installing riser style handlebars and/or adjustable angle stem and/or adding stem riser shim rings. Note by lowering the seat you may be reducing your leg power and setting up conditions for knee damage.

Otherwise, for low seat/high handlebar stance many like the "pedal forward" or "comfort bike" "cruiser" style of the Electra Townie (Trek) style. The pedal forward geometry allows you legs to stretch out with a lower seat. Not sure how good they are at climbing however.

 

[LewTwo]

Comfort is paramount here because I have a dodgy neck and want to be able to cruise around 15MPH for the best part of a day, So upright position with a lower seat and higher handlebars.

I like this Fiido T1 Cargo/Utility bike a LOT
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EbUdvWrcLM
especially for those spoke and maintenance free wheels, especially considering the weight they would have to carry on the rear rack with a 14KG or so battery

That Fiido T1 wouldn't be suitable for me though, because I need ample hill climbing capability due to living in hilly wales.

Three things that make a bike more 'comfortable' are large tires, longer frame and shock absorbing suspension. A forth, depending on how much pedaling you actually want to do, is 'crank forward'. That gives one a more upright 'normal' sitting position but at the cost of being somewhat less efficient to pedal. Also that feature is hard to find as only a few models implement it. The hill climbing power limitation is something that you will have to take up with your UK and European politicians. They are the ones limiting it ... not the manufacturers. One can increase the size of the front sprocket to improve that a bit when pedaling but of course that is going to cost one some speed pedaling as well.

The Fiido F1 is not a bad start. Here is a written review by Electrek that compares it to the popular RadRunner:
https://electrek.co/2022/01/24/new-fiido-t1-electric-cargo-bike-copies-a-famous-e-bike-yet-adds-several-key-upgrades/

EDIT: found their Video version as well ...
https://youtu.be/MtTiVf3OZB8

 

[Gorillazilla]

The Fiido F1 is not a bad start. Here is a written review by Electrek that compares it to the popular RadRunner:
https://electrek.co/2022/01/24/new-fiido-t1-electric-cargo-bike-copies-a-famous-e-bike-yet-adds-several-key-upgrades/

EDIT: found their Video version as well ...
https://youtu.be/MtTiVf3OZB8

Oh aye, good reading/watching cheers for those links Lewtwo :thumb:

Fiido T1 is pretty much perfect for me other than lacking effortless hill climbing, if it was a 750W Mid Drive I'd be all over it.

It's got the Comfort angle nailed with the higher swung back handlebars for more upright riding position, fat tyres, sprung seat and even a suspension seatpost


Only thing is I want effortless hill climbing so the motor is running at a decently efficient RPM and load range even up the steepest hills, so I can climb mountains without wasting the battery power as heat from struggling motors



Looking at the frame, think it would be possible to squeeze a BBS01 or BBS02 rotated upward into that gap between the lower frame and crossbar?

Might just fit as you can see it's pretty damn small

That would be amazing as an auxiliary hill climbing motor, especially if you fitted a Granny gear onto that small 20 inch wheel

and give true drive system redundancy if run off a second battery

 

[Gorillazilla]

Just found out that the Vertical size of the gap between Lower frame tube and crossbar of the Fiido T1 is 98mm, Does anyone know of a MidDrive slim enough to fit into that gap?