debate on universal access to health care

Tom Tom said:
Speedfreke said:
Health insurance is not a right. But, feel free to purchase it on your own.
And curl up and die in your old age while "your" government wages "war on terrorism" with your tax dollars, against an "enemy" that did not even sponsor
the terrorist attacks on the WTC, but does handle a kaboodle of Middle East Oil and military base position-power for the basically-good US.*
And of the youths who are dying there every day for the USA's old power brokers? When they need health care for shell shock, drug addiction,
phantom limb pain, in ten years from now. LET 'EM JUST go buy private health insurance on their food stamp monies? Makes sense to you, Tom?

At least they, the young hero-volunteer military men and women of today won't qualify for free VA hospital health care,
as I do, and suck $$$$ from unwinnable 'Nam type wars of Adventure! CLICK the LINK below this post, folks? World?

Apocalypse Now is NOW for all vets and for all of those who are getting shitcanned from their measly jobs in this, the newest
third-world country of the world: the USA. Time to move to China, methinks, but I can't master to peel a Mandarin orange, much less,
the language there.*
*dominant, but far from the only language of the Chinese. It is tradition, and The Wall, perhaps, that most cohere them as a sect;
to learn more of the Chinese man, just type in "Chinese sects" to YT or the google bar. The real world is not very far...
...away.

* We the People

____________________________________________________________
 
Welcome back, Reid.

Tom Tom said:
Health insurance is not a right. But, feel free to purchase it on your own.
Just this weekend I donated a hundred bucks to a local family that has a seven year old daughter named Madeleine (Maddy). Maddy has leukemia. They are half a million dollars in the hole right now. They had insurance. The half million is the part the insurance company has refused to pay -- there was a payment ceiling in the contract that the family didn't know about.

The US health care system and the insurance industry behind it is horribly broken.

So, Speedfreke, or anyone else living in one of the many countries with universal health care coverage, I'm sure there are many US citizens reading this thread who are mystified as to how you kept all your countries from falling straight into communism after implementing a public health care system. I mean, Glenn Beck and all those guys on Fox keep saying it's a slippery slope, and I'm sure all your countries must therefore be teetering on the brink of communism and/or totalitarianism now. Is that right?
 
julesa said:
Welcome back, Reid.
:( (crying)
Just for that, you muthaflucka, I am gonna' be a HYPOCRITE (gee, I wonder what that word means? :twisted: )

I am going to be a hypocrite and NOT LEAVE this forum that I do so love, that I DID help to found,
that I was unjustly and perniciously BANNED from by one or two COMMERCIAL entities who actually run this fine forum
RIGHT INTO THE GROUND of indecent forum-management.

I won't go...but if I "disappear" again without trace, you'll all know where to find the new safe-space: EFFO (see siggy)

And IF my technical content here, years in the making, should be erased, I will hold The Erasers to an 80 grit grindstone that spins at
1,700 rpm! MY tech content here numbers in the hundreds of thousands of postings. I must retain control of them, to transplant them
one at a time to EFFFO, where they cannot be defaced or erased by......

(thank you, all! And ALL are welcome to double-post anything at EFFFO.
And Ypedal and JRH are most particularly welcome to join there, and even set up "online shops"
in the panel for that purpose, free of charge, and free of any fear of being "beat upon".

I am only the TEMPORARY pillar, founder, of EFFO.
In time we will be an actual Democracy of world netizens, with polls to create
a Constitution and Bill of Rights, and votes on policies of Tolerance for "trolls" and "cranks"
like me
??

I came here in peace, and I will not "leave" ever gain;
not even by egregiously applied "insta-bans" CLAPPED off by unsigned "moderators''....


Thank you julesa!


r.

all is page-saved to-day
---
PS...edits: a lot of semi blindness typos; I don't page-magnify when writing/correcting, because that would mess up the line breaks, is all
...correction: thousands OF hours, not "or hours"........ geeze, louise!
 
I have to agree with you Reid.

I do not always agree with Jules, but he has to be one of the nicest people on this board.

If the government becomes a payer for health care, I think eventually they will find their way to being the biggest payer.

If they become the biggest payer, they will want to have a say in how things are operated, which will be provided for in future legislation or by monetary leverage.

If they succeed in having a say in how things are operated, it is possible that many privately owned hospitals begin to operate like the VA.

Not fated to become like the VA, but most probable.
 
Thanks TPA for the nod of welcome. Danger. You may be singled out for a "ban" or something similar,
if any of you seem to be in "support" of me (my opinion based on now-erased FACTs of the E.S. past.)


_________________________________

Time for our UK friends, in most particular (or will any Francophones translate forum-to-fourum for us? Any Chinese, etc.?)

WILL ANYONE please to tell us all here how horrible it must be to get an emergency medical condition in, say, CUBA, or the UK or the UAE?


Gosh, it must be, like your busted-in-half femur remains doubled back upon itself for weeeeks (sarcasm).


But here, they WILL fix the broken leg. AND THEN the "charity hospital" will attach, lien, go after your every asset, from job wages,
to home, and even your car... and, now, thanks to the BUSH ERA, there is NO MORE usa "bankruptcy" protection--for the naked, dying, sooner-dead, exposed victims, of our
not-socialized medical system of over-blown costs and.... corrupt private and government management.

And every day, some tots are dying for want of food and decent, or ANY housing, and of the near-total lack of just plain normal health care here,
and dying of CANCERS and infections, that exist, we'd think, more often in NI-Flukin'-GERIA, than in the USA!
 
Reid-

Health care is not a right. If you make it a "right", you enslave the providers of it. By doing so, you take away their "right" to provide the service as they see fit (ie. cost, plans, etc.).

Why should your "right" to health care supersede their "right" to provide it?

The gov't(both dems and repubs!) has no place in providing health care. Their actions over the years have escalated health care costs dramatically.

You yourself provided an excellent example as having to buy your own policy due to self employment.
You should be able to deduct that cost since someone receiving an employer paid plan gets that benefit virtually tax free. How is that fair? Of course its not. If there was a true level playing field with no gov't involvement in health care, Costs would be far more affordable than they are today.
 
Tom Tom above me, fyi:

I had been self employed since two years post discharge from the USNR.

Had been on my own from 1977 until I life-partnered with Ernie in 1983.

By 1991, I was totally uninsureable due to prior health problems.

Now, I cannot have any health care other than that which the V.A. hospital would afford.
Ernie's semi-retired GP treats me for nearly free: gives me vital ACE inhibitor for BP, which otherwise runs
248/150 when it's bad, and 195 over 100 when it's "good" unmedicated, that is. He gives me diazepam,
ostensibly for labial hypertension: but I am my own doctor/decider: diazepam tames SLE to a huge degree,
or I'd be dead today. No-one seems to know about "valium" (not xanax) as being SLE control mystery drugs.
They don't even have a CLUE after a century of study, of what causes this spectrum-family of SLE and "Fibromyalgia" =
a new name for a complaint that the doctors refused, for decades to even recognize as "real"..."It's all in you mind".
Quacks, some of them. Hacks, most of them. Angels, a few of them....hickory docs.

I will enroll there at the dreadful Miami V.A. hospital in case I break a leg or crack my skull.

I will not go there
for heart disease surgery, nor any semi-elective surgery,
nor for a colonoscopy NOR FOR SLE treatment, which they, there know NOTHING about,
other than to throw bottles of body-rotting predisone to SLE patients (very rare in males, I think,
because "doctors" have stigmatized this natural condition, as a "womans' disease". Males deny their SLE.
Trick Daddy is now "out" about SLE. MJ had it too. Ray Walston. Charles Kuralt. Most of them dead now.

And it is no disease, but an incurable, ineluctable natural process, a disorder of the immune system, attacking, potentially,
every tissue of the body.


I cannot ride my LIME, not since this last day, a couple of weeks ago.
I am a human being. I live, luckily, on the CHARITY of a now-impoverished, older man, Ernie.

I am no LEECH on this society (not that you said I am, or would say I were); but, I =LOOK= healthy.
So did P.B. just before his sudden cardiac death at age fifty six. And I am fifty five and already
feel the angina. I will not elect for "bypass surgery" if it came down to that. I will to live as long
as possible and die without spending, or owning, a dime. My time is your time too, you know?

September 27th, ultimo:
[youtube]GamARFQOhrI[/youtube]
have not been "well enough" (body says "lay down and write, don't 'work')
to ride since that day. But, I was in fine fettle on that wonderful rainy day.
Like the stock market, my utility value....fluctuates



Thank you for writing, Tom Tom.

R.
 
[youtube]RJVUTHLFdQ0[/youtube]
RReady555
July 08, 2008

Rudy Vallee's first major hit--a bit of Yale whimsy given national popularity by the charismatic crooner.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE WHIFFENPOOF SONG
(words Meade Minnegerode; tune attributed to Tod Galloway)

To the tables down at Mory's,
To the place where Louis dwells,
To the dear old Temple Bar
We love so well,

Sing the Whiffenpoofs assembled
With their glasses raised on high,
And the magic of their singing casts its spell.

Yes, the magic of their singing
Of the songs we love so well:
"Shall I, Wasting" and "Mavourneen" and the rest.

We will serenade our Louis
While life and voice shall last
Then we'll pass and be forgotten with the rest.

We are poor little lambs
Who have lost our way.
Baa! Baa! Baa!
We are little black sheep
Who have gone astray.
Baa! Baa! Baa!

Gentlemen songsters off on a spree
Damned from here to eternity
God have mercy on such as we.
Baa! Baa! Baa!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Much more from Wiki:

The Whiffenpoof Song was published in sheet music form in 1909.
It became a hit first for Rudy Vallee in 1927 and later in 1947 for Bing Crosby.

It has also been recorded by Elvis Presley, Count Basie, Perry Como,
the Statler Brothers and countless others.

Mory's refers to Mory's Temple Bar and Louis to a former owner of Mory's.

The chorus is derived from the poem "Gentlemen Rankers" by Rudyard Kipling,
which was set to music by Guy H. Scull (Harvard '98) and adapted with lyrics by Meade Minnigrode (Yale '10).

The chorus was also used in the movie 12 O'Clock High with Gregory Peck.
It can be heard being sung in the background after the unit receives its first unit commendation.

THE WHIFFENPOOFS

The Yale Whiffenpoofs are the oldest collegiate a cappella group in the United States, established in 1909.
Best known for "The Whiffenpoof Song," based on a tune written by Guy H. Scull (Harvard 1898)
and adapted with lyrics by Meade Minnigerode (Yale 1910).

The group comprises senior men who compete in the spring of their junior year for 14 spots.
The business manager and musical director of the group, known in Whiff tradition, respectively,
as the "Popocatepetl" and "Pitchpipe", who are chosen by members of the previous year's group,
although an alumni organization maintains close ties with the group.

The Whiffenpoofs have performed for generations at a number of venues,
including Lincoln Center, the White House, the Salt Lake Tabernacle, McAfee Coliseum, Carnegie Hall and the Rose Bowl.

The group has also appeared on television shows such as Jeopardy!,
The Today Show, Saturday Night Live, 60 Minutes, Gilmore Girls and The West Wing.

Throughout the school year, the Whiffenpoofs traditionally perform Monday nights at Mory's,
known more formally as "Mory's Temple Bar," circulating from room to room singing.

The Whiffs' best-known alumnus may be Cole Porter
, who sang in the 1913 lineup of the Whiffenpoofs
when he was a student at Yale. Today the group often performs Porter songs in tribute.

The Whiffenpoofs donate part of their proceeds each year to the Whiffenpoof Children's Literacy Initiative,
which aims to create 15 literacy centers in 12 countries, including the US.

They travel extensively during the school year and take a three-month world tour during the summer.
At one time most members were full-time students, but today many members take all or part of the year off
and are effectively full-time professional Whiffenpoofs.

The word "whiffenpoof" originated in the 1908 opera Little Nemo by Victor Herbert,
based on the comic strip Little Nemo in Slumberland by Windsor McCay.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
RR adds:

Although the Whiffenpoofs at Yale use a dragon (wyvern variation) for their mascot,
Windsor McKay's original "Great Roaring Whiffenpoof" was a Dinornis,
a prehistoric flightless bird which more closely resembles an ostrich, moa or emu.

Here's a link to a picture of McKay's Whiffenpoof:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com/filmimages/prehistoric_poultry.jpg
Category: Music
Tags:
Whiffenpoof Vallee Yale 1927
Kipling Minnegerode Galloway Little Nemo

____________________________________________________


[youtube]QNp5t1nsqbk[/youtube]
 
And there in lies the rub for our conservative friends. One of the most difficult things for some folks to do is go into the 3rd person, to understand what others are facing. Almost like an Upton Sinclair quote, save for the fact that there is no money in it for them. Just a perceived loss of privlege.

There are a thousand reasons, ranging from altruism, to neglect, to necessity, that makes it prohibitively expensive for some folks to purchase insurance. Or, as Julesa points out, that makes it easy for insurance to scam their way out of an obliged responsibility. I'd like to point out that none of our anti-universal healthcare folks here have addressed the examples where BCBS or Nationwide, etc. have scammed their way out of policies.

Tom Tom's response: "Health insurance is not a right. But, feel free to purchase it on your own." is telling. It is laughable. Speedfreke has the fortune of living in a North American democracy that allocates tax resources to promote the general welfare (where have I heard that before?!?) He doesn't need insurance to live with a chronic condition, he doesn't need to dip into his pockets to purchase insurance at non-market rates (which self-employed folks are thrust into.)

Speedfreke just has the good fortune of living from a land that isn't filled with SUV mentalities.
 
hi, Reading through this board I can't help feeling that anti- Universal healthcare types are angry and bitter : "Dammit, I don't deserve Universal health care and no one else doe too!" I don't think many of those people could be friends with anyone. You kinda figure if somehow you were in dire straits they would turn their backs on you. And you would prefer a friend who cares.

Anyway, you can't get away from the bottom line here. This is a battle of left verses right, of 'heart verses head'. And when you get into the particulars of the health care debate you can argue endlessly without ever resolving anything because debating is always done in the 'head' which never stops talking.
Another way to frame this debate is to look at it from this perspective of 'heart verses head'. The heart is the symbol of many positive things including bravery , love, compassion etc. Heart people do things because it makes their heart feel right, where as 'head' people think, think, think - constantly 'in the box' . They never get out to 'heart' territory even for a second.Indeed it's too scary for them. Their heart is wounded so they keep it hidden away so it doesn't get hurt again. And they live in the only thing left for them 'the box'.
Heart people have the benefit of both the heart and the box. They use the box when they have to but they prefer to live as a 'heart ' person because it feels more real.
Which one are you?
 
TPA said:
I do not always agree with Jules, but he has to be one of the nicest people on this board.

Thanks, TPA, though there's another thing we disagree about -- sometimes I can be a real jerk :lol:

Tom Tom said:
Health care is not a right. If you make it a "right", you enslave the providers of it. By doing so, you take away their "right" to provide the service as they see fit (ie. cost, plans, etc.).

Why should your "right" to health care supersede their "right" to provide it?

You're exaggerating.

Doctors in the UK are not enslaved (GP salary starts at around £100,000), and that's really socialized medicine over there -- all the doctors are actually employed by the government. It's a more extreme example than Canada, where doctors are mostly self employed, or employed by private organizations, and the government just pays them a set amount for basic services. They can choose to accept that payment, or not.

I think Canada's system is better than the UK's system. The government provides the part of the system where free markets simply do not work (private health insurance), is effective at controlling costs while providing excellent care for its citizens, and for the most part leaves the medical labor market alone.

Canada's regionally based Medicare systems are cost effective partly because of their administrative simplicity. For instance there is no need for client based billing and recompense systems. Private insurance is only a minimal part of the overall health care system and thus competitive practices such as advertising and other forms of self promotion, lobbying activities are kept to a minimum thus maximizing the percentage of revenues going directly towards patient care.
...
In November 2004, Canadians voted Tommy Douglas, Canada's "father of Medicare," the Greatest Canadian of all time following a nationwide contest sponsored by the CBC.
...
Doctors in Canada can charge whatever rates they like if they opt out of billing the Medicare system altogether, they are free to collect payment in whatever form and amount they like.
 
^
minor detrack and I put this in red because my temper flares that way, always has.

OK! SOME FEW of you will bitch because you can't watch video.
In some few cases, no broadband is available. It's cheap, now if you can get DSL: 18 bucks US plus about six for fake federal taxes,
for "three mips" nominal service, which is what you need, nearly to watch YT videos like the above.

SOME FEW of us cannot afford to live, to pay the rent, much less add ten or twenty dollars to our monthly living costs.


However, internet without video, today, is indeed, like sharing a party line with twelve Rube-families on a party line rural phone system,
where to call Mable Smith, you gotta ring Central and hope that Maybelle will connect you to Miss Smith, and that it will all work and...

DIAL UP SUX and has to be discarded as soon as possible.

To deny yourself broadband, yet, still spend money for really important things, is like...
well, skip a few restaurant meals and eat beans and rice for a month...all the DSL services offer trial services,
if you press them.

Once you've tasted a broadband connection, you won't go back to the tin can internet telly-phoney again.

Been on broadband for two point five years now.
Suffered for twenty years of dial up before that, if I count VIEWTRON.

Medical care, be your OWN DOCTOR, second-opinion for yourself, take CHARGE of your health:
online, today, countless resources for real MD info, that just a few years ago, those quacks kept all to themselves.
NOW you can decide whether to go for that joint replacement operation, or submit to useless liver cancer treatment:
MD's OPERATE. Patients die anyway. But...like anything else, there are good and bad medicos.

I remember now, an number of dead friends: actually KILLED by the treatments they were TOLD "might" save them.
They died sooner, much sooner, than had they been left alone and OUT of the hospital system. My dad, being one of the victims.
 
Just adding more fuel to the fire, or in this case, cold hard cash!


"As Jonah noted yesterday, 60 Minutes did a great report on Medicare fraud this past Sunday. Among other things, the report noted that Medicare fraud was now more common in South Florida than the drug trade.

Medicare fraud amounts to $60 billion dollars a year. That is one heck of a lot of money. In fact, Medicare loses seven times as much money in fraud every year than the combined profits of the 14 health insurance companies on the Fortune 500."


And more........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GMKK_fWKg
 
Spedefreke nailed it. And what's wrong about arguing from emotion is that properly, emotions shouldn't conflict with reason and logic, but be subservient to them. Emotions are not a primary source of information, only reason and logic are. You can't have a meaningful debate with someone blindly following their emotions, ignorant of their source and unwilling to reconcile them with their intellect.
 
gogo said:
Spedefreke nailed it. And what's wrong about arguing from emotion is that properly, emotions shouldn't conflict with reason and logic, but be subservient to them. Emotions are not a primary source of information, only reason and logic are. You can't have a meaningful debate with someone blindly following their emotions, ignorant of their source and unwilling to reconcile them with their intellect.

Reason and logic are dependent on external sources of information. You're just as likely to go wrong if you start logically building up idea on top of idea in your head without checking out whether they work in the real world the way you think they will.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ah5qh9Up4rIg
 
julesa, you're a bit off mark if you're holding up Greenspan's performance as Fed chairman as an example of a free market in action.
Business and Economics: He's No Rand Disciple
By Alex Epstein (Published in American Banker, May 20, 2009)

In a recent story about former BB&T CEO John Allison’s support of Ayn Rand’s laissez-faire ideas, including a gold standard, (“Allison Shrugs”) American Banker repeats an unfortunate misconception about Rand, one that is often used to undermine anyone who agrees with her: “Even former Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan, Rand’s most famous student, has backed away from her ideas as the financial crisis has deepened.”

But Greenspan can’t “back away” from something he hasn’t believed or supported for decades. Remember, this is a man who for two decades reveled in wielding the manipulative power granted to him as Fed Chairman--a job he once (rightly) argued should not exist. The New York Times called him “the infallible maestro of the financial system.” Free markets don’t have “infallible maestros”; they liberate us from such “maestros”--the central planners who have time and again falsely claimed the ability and the right to orchestrate (dictate) millions of economic lives.

Greenspan long ago degenerated into another central planner--and a particularly bad one, both because of his highly inflationary policies (a fundamental cause of the crisis) and because he implemented them under the banner of laissez-faire. If one wishes to understand or argue with the laissez-faire ideas of Ayn Rand, Alan Greenspan is the last person to look to. He stands for free markets about as much as a Chinese censor stands for free speech.

Another good example of why, instead of more and centralized government intervention in the health care industry, we should seek to shed the government interference we already have.
 
:lol: Are you a derivatives trader, by chance? The highway bandits are usually the only ones trying to get rid of the Sheriff.
 
Of course the hardcore free market objectivists are very upset with one of the founders of their movement, he's criticized the fundamental principles their religion is based on.

Greenspan was a realist. He, more than just about anyone else, tried to apply Rand's tower of ideas to the real world. The philosophy mostly works quite well.
``Yes, I found a flaw,'' Greenspan said in response to grilling from the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. ``That is precisely the reason I was shocked because I'd been going for 40 years or more with very considerable evidence that it was working exceptionally well.''

Greenspan said he was ``partially'' wrong in opposing regulation of derivatives and acknowledged that financial institutions didn't protect shareholders and investments as well as he expected.

Of course, he's forgetting about some spectacular failures that more regulation could have prevented. cough*Enron*cough
 
julesa said:
Of course, he's forgetting about some spectacular failures that more regulation could have prevented. cough*Enron*cough

The Enron failure was caused by government regulation, not the lack of it.
 
Government regulation ate my homework
Government regulation killed my dog
Government regulation gave me cancer
Government regulation stole my truck
Government regulation made my wife leave

Reminds me of a country song
 
The Enron failure was caused by government regulation, not the lack of it.

This is quite a delicious assertion. Please feel free to clarify.

While we're waiting, I suggest everyone else kindly Google: "enron california deregulation grandma"
 
Interesting that Libertarians are dissing their golden-child Greenspan. This the same flavor of denial you see Republicans and conservatives dish out when they try and distance their ideologies from Bush.

Look, I caught Frontline last week, the one about Brooksly Born. The one about derivative de-regulation.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/

The money shot is the Greenspan exchange with Rep. Waxman (~40 minutes in,) this exchange was made just over a year ago, where a broken Greenspan admits his ideology is wrong. What a fraud. I would have laughed my ass off in schadenfreude, were it not for the fact that this Libertarian's policies destroyed half my hard-earned wealth, and put many of my friends and family members in dire financial straights.

As sure as the night follows the day, Greenspan is a disciple of Ayn Rand. That catastrophic failure in his wake is a feature, not a bug, of lassez-faire economics.
 
I'm sorry, your youtube link returned the following:

Yaron Brook on Capitalism, Question 6 - Ayn Rand Institute
"An error occurred, please try again later."

The other appears to be a 10k word synopsis on the history of the electric grid. Thanks?

Pseudo-deregulation? Was that the one that allowed the Enron traders to rape Grandma Millie?
 
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