debate on universal access to health care

Sorry, Cackalacka. Scroll down to the heading "Pseudo-deregulation" for the specifics of Enron. The youtube link works at my location.

I guess you missed, in a previous post, the qualification of Greenspan's actions as Fed chairman not being representative of the principles of Objectivism.
Cackalacka said:
Pseudo-deregulation? Was that the one that allowed the Enron traders to rape Grandma Millie?
Bingo. Remember, deregulation doesn't mean no regulation. It means the government is changing things up capriciously. Yes, there was gross fraud commited by Enron personel, but crappy government regulation gave them the tools. In a free marketplace, fraud is discovered and punished before it can wreak havoc on the scales of Enron and our current mess.
 
What prods the government to capriciously de-regulate? It isn't the regulators, it is the agents of the free-market.

You want a close look at what an unregulated market, try the derivatives trading of the past decade. Who pushed to keep regulators out, promising that the free-market would shephard these transactions? The regulators?

I work in a highly regulated industry. When agents in the private sector attempt to perform end-runs around government regulators, thousands of people literally die. One can argue that, "well, these disasters weren't pre-emptively caught by the regulators/regulations and therefore the regulations are flawed," but that would be blaming someone for falling in front of a moving train after someone else pushed them.
 
It's rather difficult to throw people like Enron's Ken Lay in jail if there are no regulations in place that make market manipulation and other fraudulent activity illegal.
 
Costs are rising while services are actually decreasing. By 2015 folks on both sides of the aisle have pretty much conceded that Healthcare costs will consume upwards of 25% of the U.S. annual gross domestic product. That's just plain NUTS!

At some point the government WILL get involved...that's just an assload of money for them NOT to have their hands in it....Limbaugh conservative or Pinko communist bedwetter....the government...be it RepubliCrat or DemiCan....WILL BE INVOLVED in Heathcare delivery for the masses....like it or NOT!

The current system IS CONSUMING US ALL....folks are losing their homes....life savings, etc...over a SINGULAR MEDICAL EVENT. It is NOT an issue of which side of the political spectrum you operate on. THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN....PERIOD!

I suspect the private systems will remain and that there will be some kind of "assigned risk" bucket that the unwashed masses will fall into...
 
Hi,

Excellent FAQ (summary of issues) by BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8160058.stm

Excerpts:
How is the US healthcare system currently structured?
Unlike other developed countries, the US does not have a universal system of healthcare coverage.

It is up to individuals to obtain health insurance. Most Americans obtain coverage through their employers, but others sign up for private insurance schemes.

So what are the problems with the US system?
Healthcare costs for individuals are rising dramatically.

Premiums for employer-provided schemes have risen four times faster than wages, and are now double their cost nine years ago.

The percentage of employees with an annual deductible greater than $1,000 increased from 1% to 18% between 2000 and 2008.

As a nation, the US spent some $2.2tn (£1.34tn) on healthcare in 2007. That amounts to 16.2% of GDP, nearly twice the average of other OECD countries.

What are the effects of rising health costs?
The rising individual costs mean that more and more people in America are unable to afford health insurance. Tens of millions of Americans do not have insurance, and millions more are deemed "under-insured" - their coverage is inadequate for their needs.

When someone without insurance (or with inadequate cover) falls ill, they are obliged to pay their medical costs out of their own pocket.

Half of all personal bankruptcies in the US are at least partially the result of medical expenses.

Rising costs also mean the government is spending more and more on Medicare and Medicaid.

US government spending on the two schemes is projected to rise from 4% of GDP in 2007 to 7% in 2025 and 12% in 2050, making rising healthcare costs one of the biggest contributing factors to the spiraling US budget deficit.

How many people in America do not have health insurance?
The US census bureau estimates that 46.3 million people in America, out of a population of 300 million, were uninsured in 2008.
 
Hi,

BBC said:
How is the US healthcare system currently structured?
Unlike other developed countries, the US does not have a universal system of healthcare coverage.

thomas said:
So today you are one step closer to socialism? :p

One step further from a third world economy :lol:.

One step closer to a civilized society that takes care of its less affluent citizens :D.
 
Consider the case of Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d. 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981), for example. In this case three rape victims sued the Washington, D.C., government because of negligence on the part of the police. The case brought out the following facts (Evers 1994: 7): Two of the three female roommates were upstairs in their apartment when they heard men break in and attack the third. They made repeated calls to the police for help. After about thirty minutes, their roommate's screams had stopped and they assumed the police had arrived. They went downstairs where, for the next fourteen hours, they were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, and forced to commit sexual acts upon one another and to submit to the sexual demands of the criminals. It seems that the police had lost track of the repeated calls for assistance. Yet, the District of Columbia's highest court absolved the police and the city of any liability, stating that the police do not have a legal responsibility to provide personal protection to individuals. This ruling is completely consistent with a number of court rulings and statute law from several states. But imagine what a jury would award to a plaintiff in a civil case for negligence on the part of a private security firm that resulted in harms such as this.

A private security firm cannot afford to be careless in the way it serves its customers. Public police can. Thus, public employees who provide law enforcement actually have the type of incentives that some critics have attributed to private security, but they are not regulated by the threat of competition at anything close to the level that exists in private markets, and they do not face the same liability rules that private firms face. Consequently public producers are for more likely to react to those incentives than are private producers.

-Bruce Benson "To Serve and Protect: Privatization and Community in Criminal Justice" -- in response to claims that quality security service is impossible for private firms because they have incentives cut cost and services.
 
Cackalacka said:
Allow me to take a moment to reflect on the new-found interest and priority movement conservatives now place on fiscal discipline, and ask: what the hell were y'all doing from 2001-2009 when your ideology ran up our kid's debt?

NOW you're concerned with currency values?

outrageous.jpg

This seems to be a common tactic among liberals. Unfortunately, I, along with most of the people in this thread against government health care were also against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Yes, I watched Olberman on a daily basis, sent letters to my congressmen, and voted for Ron Paul in the primary.

To those who want health care I am just another gun toting, bible thumping conservotard. Never mind the fact that I've never shot or owned a gun, and proudly call myself an atheist. Only idiots could spew such lies and misinformation, and I must be a "conservative" if I'm against socialized health care.
 
Hi,

njs said:
To those who want health care I am just another gun toting, bible thumping conservotard. Never mind the fact that I've never shot or owned a gun, and proudly call myself an atheist. Only idiots could spew such lies and misinformation, and I must be a "conservative" if I'm against socialized health care.

No, to me you don't want society to provide health care to the less affluent members of our society.
 
There are two ways charity can be done, voluntarily and involuntarily. A big problem with the current situation is that the government has been engaged in a "war on poverty" and has been claiming to have taken care of charity. It has has failed. Now we are supposed to throw more money at the problem. In addition, the government has distorted the healthcare market and made it very inefficient and then blamed the market. Charity needs to be private for both moral and practical reasons.
 
MitchJi said:
Hi,

njs said:
To those who want health care I am just another gun toting, bible thumping conservotard. Never mind the fact that I've never shot or owned a gun, and proudly call myself an atheist. Only idiots could spew such lies and misinformation, and I must be a "conservative" if I'm against socialized health care.

No, to me you don't want society to provide health care to the less affluent members of our society.

To me you are someone who doesn't want health care for our children.

There are reasons that 90% of drug research is in America. And when those reasons are eliminated 90% of drug research will cease.

The reason health care is expensive is because we actually have the technology to save lives. It's hilarious that liberals would rather have no option than the option of life at a price. Unfortunately government has passed laws forcing insurance to cover the latest and greatest treatment driving up the price of insurance beyond affordability, and forcing people into $10,000 deductible plans.

The rich subsidize commercialization of all sorts of medical procedures. The first pacemakers cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and many of their users died. Today more than 5 million Americans have a pacemakers and the procedure is less than $50,000.

Canada sends more than 10,000 people a year to Detroit to get treatment. Why does such a superior system send so many people to the poorest city in America?

The NIH passed a law that ambulance patients couldn't sit in the hospital unseen by doctors for more than 2 hours. The result? People in ambulances outside of hospitals waiting for hours. Ambulances stranded, unable to respond to calls. People dying from a lack of doctors. Rather than, you know, pay doctors more, they passed a law by fiat telling hospitals to do something that was impossible.

These systems have problems that can't be fixed with throwing more money at them. Like DC's school system and it $25,000 per child per year, the government rarely does things well. And the more complicated those things, the worse it does.

There is an argument for a voucher, changes to patent law, maybe even tort reform, but outright socialization of health care as has been done with so many things will only reduce its effectiveness and drive up the price.
 
gogo said:
There are two ways charity can be done, voluntarily and involuntarily. A big problem with the current situation is that the government has been engaged in a "war on poverty" and has been claiming to have taken care of charity. It has has failed. Now we are supposed to throw more money at the problem. In addition, the government has distorted the healthcare market and made it very inefficient and then blamed the market. Charity needs to be private for both moral and practical reasons.

Walter Williams' youtube video on this is excellent. Blacks and minorities were winning the war on poverty until LBJ declared the governments role in fighting it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1r-r6iLBEI
 
njs-

This seems to be a common tactic among liberals.

What, pointing out facts?

There are reasons that 90% of drug research is in America. And when those reasons are eliminated 90% of drug research will cease.

There are reasons why that quoted statement above is 100% false.

America currently produces a plurality of the world's pharma research, and will likely always produce a plurality of the worlds pharma research. The principle reason is the federal government, not the free market. The R&D efforts have been moving more and more to India, Latin America, & eastern Europe. They will continue to do so.

Care to guess why?
 
I never supported the war. So no, that's not a fact relevant to me. And as far as I know the cost is closer to a trillion.

I'm not sure how a statistic can be conditionally true or false.

Yes, the federal government's absurd monopoly regime is a large part of the reason research is so focused here. Reducing these these protections would shift research more broadly and shift some of the cost away from Americans.

If you would like to discuss rolling back patents I'm absolutely welcome to the idea. If you are talking about whole scale takeover of health insurance because 1% of the country doesn't have it, I think you are making an awfully weak argument.
 
Personally I see the current bill in Congress as combining the worst of both worlds, government will be forcing individuals to purchase private insurance from companies that will deny as much care as possible in order to maximize returns to shareholders. After all, a corporation's sole responsibility is to maximize return to shareholders, they are immortal and amoral entities which in some bizarre twist of American law have become legal persons.

I honestly don't see how this is in any way Constitutional, I don't mind paying taxes to the government, that is as inevitable as gravity, I do mind being forced under penalty of law to pay money to a corporation for an extremely flawed product.

Some people are going to immediately point to mandated auto insurance, that is quite different, driving an auto is a privelege, not a right, and mandated insurance pays for the other guy when you crash into him and it is determined to be your fault. Many Americans go their entire lives without ever having a license or a car so it is entirely possible to not be forced to buy auto insurance.
 
If universal health care means we all get the same health care coverage, then we should all be paying the same amount.

If we all pay the same amount, and we all get the same coverage, I'm ok with that. Flat tax not based on income. Pay it and get coverage. Don't pay your health care flat tax? No coverage.

No reason because I work my ass off that I should have to pay for not just my own, but for 20 other peoples healthcare as well.
 
liveforphysics said:
If universal health care means we all get the same health care coverage, then we should all be paying the same amount.

If we all pay the same amount, and we all get the same coverage, I'm ok with that. Flat tax not based on income. Pay it and get coverage. Don't pay your health care flat tax? No coverage.

No reason because I work my ass off that I should have to pay for not just my own, but for 20 other peoples healthcare as well.

A great many people work their ass off and don't make much money while quite a few people don't work hard at all and make a great deal of money. Being shrewd about money and working hard are two entirely different things.

By definition approximately half of the population is below average intelligence.

And it's remarkably easy to become disabled to the point that continuing the work you do becomes impossible, I've had a couple of severe motorcycle accidents that left me unable to do much of anything for nearly a year each time. That's why I don't ride motorcycles any more. :eek:

http://www.lcurve.org/

The US population is represented along the length of the football field, arranged in order of income.

Median US family income (the family at the 50 yard line) is ~$40,000 (a stack of $100 bills 1.6 inches high.)

--The family on the 95 yard line earns about $100,000 per year, a stack of $100 bills about 4 inches high.

--At the 99 yard line the income is about $300,000, a stack of $100 bills about a foot high.

--The curve reaches $1 million (a 40 inch high stack of $100 bills) one foot from the goal line.

--From there it keeps going up...it goes up 50 km (~30 miles) on this scale!
 
Jonathan in Hiram said:
liveforphysics said:
If universal health care means we all get the same health care coverage, then we should all be paying the same amount.

If we all pay the same amount, and we all get the same coverage, I'm ok with that. Flat tax not based on income. Pay it and get coverage. Don't pay your health care flat tax? No coverage.

No reason because I work my ass off that I should have to pay for not just my own, but for 20 other peoples healthcare as well.

A great many people work their ass off and don't make much money while quite a few people don't work hard at all and make a great deal of money. Being shrewd about money and working hard are two entirely different things.

By definition approximately half of the population is below average intelligence.

And it's remarkably easy to become disabled to the point that continuing the work you do becomes impossible, I've had a couple of severe motorcycle accidents that left me unable to do much of anything for nearly a year each time. That's why I don't ride motorcycles any more. :eek:

http://www.lcurve.org/

The US population is represented along the length of the football field, arranged in order of income.

Median US family income (the family at the 50 yard line) is ~$40,000 (a stack of $100 bills 1.6 inches high.)

--The family on the 95 yard line earns about $100,000 per year, a stack of $100 bills about 4 inches high.

--At the 99 yard line the income is about $300,000, a stack of $100 bills about a foot high.

--The curve reaches $1 million (a 40 inch high stack of $100 bills) one foot from the goal line.

--From there it keeps going up...it goes up 50 km (~30 miles) on this scale!


The folks at the end zone's money isn't worth a cent less than the folks on the 1 yard line. If a product is for sale, you set a price for it, and people can buy it. The product doesn't gain any value because the person buying it has additional ability to pay.

I ate ketchup packets for food and lived in an unheated unplumbed storage unit when times got tough trying to get through college. I never took a cent from the government for "financial assistance", and I never will, because ethically I see it as robbing the citizens of the country.

You don't have to be smart to get a decent income. I've got plenty of extremely smart friends who are penniless, and I've got friends who struggled into a place with very comfortable income who've got a peanut for a brain, and plenty of other life issues.

If you keep focus of both aspirations and drive, and sacrifice as needed to keep working towards those aspirations, you can be rewarded by getting a position closer to that end-zone. Just drive/work ethic leaves you as a mule in a job somewhere. Just aspirations leaves you with a head full of dreams and empty pockets. If you generate the discipline to sacrifice whatever it takes to keep your aspirations and drive in focus, you can make it somewhere, and you should be rewarded, not punished by deeper taxing.

Don't try to discriminate against someone who isn't a genus, or has a handicap, or whatever, saying that they can't make something of themselves. Don't punish those who do climb into the position they reach by forcing them drag along others with them.

My $0.02
 
liveforphysics said:
If you keep focus of both aspirations and drive, and sacrifice as needed to keep working towards those aspirations, you can be rewarded by getting a position closer to that end-zone. Just drive/work ethic leaves you as a mule in a job somewhere. Just aspirations leaves you with a head full of dreams and empty pockets. If you generate the discipline to sacrifice whatever it takes to keep your aspirations and drive in focus, you can make it somewhere, and you should be rewarded, not punished by deeper taxing.

Don't try to discriminate against someone who isn't a genus, or has a handicap, or whatever, saying that they can't make something of themselves. Don't punish those who do climb into the position they reach by forcing them drag along others with them.

My $0.02

Absolutely true, though arguably someone making $1m/year and getting taxed at 35% is still being rewarded far better than someone making $150k/year and getting taxed at 28%.

Unfortunately your argument doesn't apply well to US health care reform anyway, because our system is so broken, we are already taxed more per capita for health care than most countries that have a simple universal health care system. In fact, Luxembourg and Norway are the only countries where people pay (slightly) more health care taxes per capita than the US.

oecd_2007_health_gdp_public_private.gif


US public health care spending per capita is higher than the average of other OECD countries' total health care spending per capita. US public health care spending is mostly just Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA.

Our costs are out of control because we are trying to apply free market principles to a situation which isn't functioning efficiently as a free market, mostly due to information imbalances.

There is no downward price pressure in many areas because most people don't make their own choices. They mostly don't choose their insurance company, they mostly don't choose what drugs and treatments they get, they don't make many of the choices that normally control quality and costs. Sometimes they don't make those choices because they don't have the information they need to decide what treatments they should get (their doctor does, but many doctors don't consider cost as much as maybe they should). Other times the choices are made for them (their employer or plan gives them very limited options). One of the biggest information imbalances is the details of insurance plans, usually described in complex legalese. Show of hands: who here read their health insurance policy cover to cover and compared it with other insurance companies' policies before purchasing? How is this a free market if most people don't even know what they're buying?

Sometimes the people don't have the option to make choices that drive costs down, and sometimes their insurance company doesn't have the option of making choices that drive costs down. Sometimes people end up with name brand drugs that aren't any more effective than a far cheaper generic option. In this case, the information imbalance favors the drug companies. Sometimes people go without paying insurance for a long time, then get sick but don't go to a doctor until some time after they've signed up for an insurance policy. In this case the information imbalance favors the patient and screws the insurance company. Another example of free market failure.

And then there's all the wasted administrative effort at doctors offices managing the regulations and billing procedures of fifty different insurance companies, all the wasted effort of all the different insurance companies figuring out what procedures should and shouldn't be covered, all the wasted effort looking for insurance fraud, none of which would be necessary under a universal coverage system.

Not to mention that we're already paying for emergency care for the poor anyway... hospitals take care of the poor in their emergency rooms, among the most expensive facilities we have. The costs are passed on to all the paying customers -- whether insured, uninsured, Medicare, whatever. The uninsured who can pay end up paying a lot more than the insured though, because they have no bargaining leverage. And not just the poor -- medical expenses are the leading cause of bankruptcies. Who ends up paying for that hidden expense? We all do, in higher medical costs, and therefore higher insurance premiums, and higher interest rates from any lending institutions that get caught holding the bag. So when someone gets sick, if they can't pay their own way, we all end up paying for it one way or another anyhow.

This is why costs are out of control, and why costs are only out of control in the US, not all around the world. This is why Medicare is over budget. This is why we pay more in taxes just for Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA than people in other countries pay in taxes for 100% free health care for all their citizens.

I'm not a socialist, I'm a pragmatist. Communism failed because it simply cannot work as efficiently as free markets do, in most situations. Whatever works best is obviously what we should do, regardless of whether it requires the involvement of the big scary government, or not. Does the US health care system need to cover absolutely everybody? Not necessarily. But I'm skeptical that we can come up with a free market health care system that's more efficient than all the other western industrialized nations' government health care systems which right now are kicking our butts in efficiency by about 2 to 1.
 
Wow julesa, you are determined to rationalize your desire for socialism. Look a little deeper and you'll find the government's fingerprints on everything that's broken with our system.

Moral Health Care vs. “Universal Health Care”

The reason communism doesn't work is that its inconsistent with human nature. For the same reason, socialized health care won't work as well as a fully free market health care system. Sure, we could have the same half-assed system as the other industrial countries, or we could have the best possible if we open our eyes and realize government interference is a disease.
 
You were doing pretty well until this part:
julesa said:
And then there's all the wasted administrative effort at doctors offices managing the regulations and billing procedures of fifty different insurance companies, all the wasted effort of all the different insurance companies figuring out what procedures should and shouldn't be covered, all the wasted effort looking for insurance fraud, none of which would be necessary under a universal coverage system.
Doesn't this argument apply to any good? People waste so much time looking for TVs at Best Buy. If the government just sent them one in the mail and told them that was all they got it would be so much more efficient. We would save tens, maybe even hundreds of dollars. What about cars? All that time spent on evil advertising, and then all that inventory sitting in lots waiting to be sold. We could save so much money if everyone just drove one car. Individual taste and preferences? C'mon its about efficiency!

julesa said:
Not to mention that we're already paying for emergency care for the poor anyway... hospitals take care of the poor in their emergency rooms, among the most expensive facilities we have. The costs are passed on to all the paying customers -- whether insured, uninsured, Medicare, whatever. The uninsured who can pay end up paying a lot more than the insured though, because they have no bargaining leverage. And not just the poor -- medical expenses are the leading cause of bankruptcies. Who ends up paying for that hidden expense? We all do, in higher medical costs, and therefore higher insurance premiums, and higher interest rates from any lending institutions that get caught holding the bag. So when someone gets sick, if they can't pay their own way, we all end up paying for it one way or another anyhow.
Total cost last year using generous estimates: 56 billion. We spend more than 1.5 trillion on health care. I'm not particularly convinced by 3% of that number. You are essentially saying we have this one government regulation forcing hospitals to treat people that can't pay that creates this side effect of hospitals shifting cost on everyone else. The solution is to just to give the government more control? It's amazing how the failure of previous government policies is continually used as justification for the passage of more.

julesa said:
This is why costs are out of control, and why costs are only out of control in the US, not all around the world. This is why Medicare is over budget. This is why we pay more in taxes just for Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA than people in other countries pay in taxes for 100% free health care for all their citizens.
So everything is just fine in Canada and the UK? Who cares if you have to wait 2 years for a family physician. Solving the problem of price by refusing the pay doctors only leads to a shortage of doctors. You haven't fixed the price problem, you've just rationed previous resources to less people.

julesa said:
I'm not a socialist, I'm a pragmatist. Communism failed because it simply cannot work as efficiently as free markets do, in most situations. Whatever works best is obviously what we should do, regardless of whether it requires the involvement of the big scary government, or not. Does the US health care system need to cover absolutely everybody? Not necessarily. But I'm skeptical that we can come up with a free market health care system that's more efficient than all the other western industrialized nations' government health care systems which right now are kicking our butts in efficiency by about 2 to 1.
What I don't understand in all of this is why we need one bill. There is no reason to roll everything into one except to strongarm representatives into voting on legislation they don't agree with. Why not have a bill addressing each of these problems? Because when you approach the problem with only one solution, government takeover, a single bill is the natural result.
 
njs said:
Total cost last year using generous estimates: 56 billion. We spend more than 1.5 trillion on health care. I'm not particularly convinced by 3% of that number. You are essentially saying we have this one government regulation forcing hospitals to treat people that can't pay that creates this side effect of hospitals shifting cost on everyone else. The solution is to just to give the government more control? It's amazing how the failure of previous government policies is continually used as justification for the passage of more.
50 billion here, 50 billion there, pretty soon we're talking about real money.

njs said:
So everything is just fine in Canada and the UK? Who cares if you have to wait 2 years for a family physician. Solving the problem of price by refusing the pay doctors only leads to a shortage of doctors. You haven't fixed the price problem, you've just rationed previous resources to less people.

Two years to see a family physician? LOL . That's terrible. You would think people getting service like that would be outraged. But most of them report they're happier with their system than we are, according to Gallup:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/117205/americans-not-feeling-health-benefits-high-spending.aspx
Maybe you were exaggerating a little...? Pretty sure the average non-urgent family physician wait time (in Ontario, at least) is about a week.

Edited to add: Yeah. About a week. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2585449/figure/FG22/

njs said:
What I don't understand in all of this is why we need one bill. There is no reason to roll everything into one except to strongarm representatives into voting on legislation they don't agree with. Why not have a bill addressing each of these problems? Because when you approach the problem with only one solution, government takeover, a single bill is the natural result.

I can think of several reasons (besides strong-arming representatives). Some reforms are meaningless without others. Some are dependent on others. Bills are very technical in nature and the solution to each part of the problem is likely very dependent on the exact nature and language of the solutions to all the other problems, and the language of the solution to each will certainly depend on the others. Trying to get a gaggle of bills to match up with each other, work well with each other, and not leave any big gaping regulatory holes unplugged would be a nightmare.
 
njs said:
So everything is just fine in Canada and the UK? Who cares if you have to wait 2 years for a family physician
What? I usually get an appointment within 2 days - same day, if it's an emergency.

The argument that the only thing wrong with the US healthcare system is government interference, is laughable.
 
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