debate on universal access to health care

[julesa]

Wow julesa, you are determined to rationalize your desire for socialism. Look a little deeper and you'll find the government's fingerprints on everything that's broken with our system.

Moral Health Care vs. “Universal Health Care”

The reason communism doesn't work is that its inconsistent with human nature. For the same reason, socialized health care won't work as well as a fully free market health care system. Sure, we could have the same half-assed system as the other industrial countries, or we could have the best possible if we open our eyes and realize government interference is a disease.

May you one day overcome your affliction.
http://www.gq.com/entertainment/books/200911/ayn-rand-dick-books-fountainhead?printable=true

 

[Tom Tom]

Absolutely true, though arguably someone making $1m/year and getting taxed at 35% is still being rewarded far better than someone making $150k/year and getting taxed at 28%.

I'm at loss here. How is the $1m/year person being rewarded for paying more in Tax?

They are being PUNISHED for being more successful, plain and simple.

 

[julesa]

Absolutely true, though arguably someone making $1m/year and getting taxed at 35% is still being rewarded far better than someone making $150k/year and getting taxed at 28%.

I'm at loss here. How is the $1m/year person being rewarded for paying more in Tax?

They are being PUNISHED for being more successful, plain and simple.

You're being too literal in your interpretation of the words reward and punish. I meant that one guy is rewarded with $650,000 for his efforts, the other is rewarded with $108,000 for his efforts. It's a glass half-empty thing.

Maybe it would be easier for you to look at it this way. 35% is the default tax rate for anyone making more than about $350k. The tax rate doesn't keep increasing above $350k, it tops out right at about 35%, which is a lot lower than it used to be. That's the flat tax rate. People making less than that get a discount.

Maybe they are less capable, or maybe they are choosing other priorities besides money... family, whatever. Maybe they are choosing to work in a profession which significantly benefits society but doesn't pay well, like for example teachers.

 

[Tom Tom]

Absolutely true, though arguably someone making $1m/year and getting taxed at 35% is still being rewarded far better than someone making $150k/year and getting taxed at 28%.

I'm at loss here. How is the $1m/year person being rewarded for paying more in Tax?

They are being PUNISHED for being more successful, plain and simple.

You're being too literal in your interpretation of the words reward and punish. I meant that one guy is rewarded with $650,000 for his efforts, the other is rewarded with $108,000 for his efforts. It's a glass half-empty thing.

Now that's funny!

How about one guy is paying $350,000 while the other only has to pay $42,000 for their respective "efforts"?

Say they both go and buy the same new car, should the "richer" guy pay 8 times the amount as the "poorer" guy?

 

[julesa]

No, I'm for progressive taxation, not arbitrary prices on consumer goods. What's your point?

I'm grateful to the wealthier guy for his greater than average contribution to our schools, roads, and other services, but if he starts whining about carrying more than his share, I'm not gonna be terribly sympathetic. Maybe he works twice as hard and twice as smart as the guy grossing $150k, and maybe he doesn't, but either way he can sure as hell afford his 35% tax burden without terrible sacrifice.

Progressive taxation recognizes that financial reward is not necessarily commensurate with someone's work, or other contribution to society. How much benefit does a soldier give to society? Are we, as a society, hundreds of times better off from the effort of a basketball star than from the effort of a soldier?

Should a soldier have to pay the same number of dollars in taxes as a basketball star, or bank executive?

 

[Tom Tom]

Maybe he works twice as hard and twice as smart as the guy grossing $150k, and maybe he doesn't, but either way he can sure as hell afford his 35% tax burden without terrible sacrifice.

How do you know he can afford that without terrible sacrifice?

Your basing that assumption on the assumption the "rich" dude is living with the same expenses that the "poor" dude is.

People tend to live up to their paycheck whether it be large or small. Something about human nature I guess.

 

[julesa]

Maybe he works twice as hard and twice as smart as the guy grossing $150k, and maybe he doesn't, but either way he can sure as hell afford his 35% tax burden without terrible sacrifice.

How do you know he can afford that without terrible sacrifice?

Your basing that assumption on the assumption the "rich" dude is living with the same expenses that the "poor" dude is.

People tend to live up to their paycheck whether it be large or small. Something about human nature I guess.

WTF

 

[Tom Tom]

Should a soldier have to pay the same number of dollars in taxes as a basketball star, or bank executive?

Should they all have to pay the same for a new car?, health care?, meal at a restaurant?, new house?

 

[julesa]

You don't really expect me to take you seriously

 

[Tom Tom]

You don't really expect me to take you seriously

aaaaaah c'mon. I can say the same thing.

what do you do when you run out of other people's money? what happens then?

 

[Tom Tom]

I'm grateful to the wealthier guy for his greater than average contribution to our schools, roads, and other services, but if he starts whining about carrying more than his share, I'm not gonna be terribly sympathetic. Maybe he works twice as hard and twice as smart as the guy grossing $150k, and maybe he doesn't, but either way he can sure as hell afford his 35% tax burden without terrible sacrifice.

and as well you should. Put yourself in that guys shoes, why should he pay more? Simply because he can(according to others,btw) ?

Where are his individual rights? Are you grateful for his rights?

 

[julesa]

Should a soldier have to pay the same number of dollars in taxes as a basketball star, or bank executive?

So your answer to the above question is yes? And you really expect people to think you're not trolling? :lol:

 

[Tom Tom]

And you really expect people to think you're not trolling? :lol:

how is it your not trolling?

Because I have a differing opinion, that should be construed as trolling?

Because I believe everyone has a right to keep what they make of their lives(earn)?

Because I believe taking from others for what you think is good for others(because they can afford it) is the wrong thing to do?

I'm just saying, that is what I believe.

Too bad we couldn't drink some beers. And, btw, its on me.

 

[julesa]

And you really expect people to think you're not trolling? :lol:

how is it your not trolling?

Because I have a differing opinion that should be construed as trolling?

Not necessarily, but I think trolling is probably the most charitable interpretation of your arguments.

 

[gogo]

How about paying taxes according to your burden on the government just like any other fee-for-service arrangement? Oh wait, that leaves out the possibility for the slavery that is redistribution of wealth. Its a given that nobody should have more than anybody else. As long as we're all equally slaves to each other its all good, right?

 

[julesa]

How about paying taxes according to your burden on the government just like any other fee-for-service arrangement? Oh wait, that leaves out the possibility for the slavery that is redistribution of wealth. Its a given that nobody should have more than anybody else. As long as we're all equally slaves to each other its all good, right?

I could suggest with equal sarcasm that all the soldiers and teachers of the world should be the slaves of those who worship at the altar of the almighty dollar. But I don't have the patience or the masochistic tendencies to keep hammering at the impregnable wall of your faith, so have a great weekend, everyone. One last thing before I go, a quote from my favorite article of the day:
http://www.gq.com/entertainment/books/200911/ayn-rand-dick-books-fountainhead?printable=true

You can't spend more than five minutes on a Rand-related chat room without seeing a teacher (or social worker, or environmentalist) declaimed as a "risk avoider/merit denouncer." This affect, it should be added, is the trademark symptom of a collegiate Randian infection. Where, say, undergraduate Marxists share a certain narcoleptic insouciance, freshly afflicted Randians evince a showier disregard for those who can't or won't see the light. Showy—but serene, in a way that's cultish and weird. And unintentionally funny, since the only other young people possessed of such grim serenity are those homeschooled Christian fundamentalists who have the ability to transmit—with nothing more than a silent, pitying look—that they know (1) the Rapture is imminent, (2) they'll be taken up, and (3) you'll be spending eternity steeping in a liquid-shit Jacuzzi.

 

[Tom Tom]

I could suggest with equal sarcasm that all the soldiers and teachers of the world should be the slaves of those who worship at the altar of the almighty dollar.

Its important to remember one still chooses their career.

Why does economics and health care have to be so complex?

To me its pretty simple. Its just made complex by those who wish to keep
slavery a part of everyday life. You just made that abundantly clear.

Have a great weekend brotha.

 

[njs]

50 billion here, 50 billion there, pretty soon we're talking about real money.

Ahh, but the 60 billion in Medicaid fraud (out of 370 billion) was just a statistical artifact I assume?

Two years to see a family physician? LOL .

For families moving and looking to get a new doctor the average wait time is 2+ years. In some places people are put into a lottery and whoever is lucky enough to have their name pulled out gets a doctor.

There is a doctor shortage in Canada. If you choose to willfully ignore this fact I can't really persuade you.

 

[njs]

What? I usually get an appointment within 2 days - same day, if it's an emergency.

The argument that the only thing wrong with the US healthcare system is government interference, is laughable.

Only 23% of Canadians report being able to get an appointment with a physician on the same day. This is 24th out of 28 countries. I guess it's not problem if you've only been coughing a little. Not so much if you cut off a finger or your kid gets meningitis.

 

[Miles]

What? I usually get an appointment within 2 days - same day, if it's an emergency.

The argument that the only thing wrong with the US healthcare system is government interference, is laughable.

Only 23% of Canadians report being able to get an appointment with a physician on the same day. This is 24th out of 28 countries. I guess it's not problem if you've only been coughing a little. Not so much if you cut off a finger or your kid gets meningitis.

Why would you want an appointment with a family physician if you'd cut off a finger?

I can only speak from my own experience of the UK system.

 

[njs]

I could suggest with equal sarcasm that all the soldiers and teachers of the world should be the slaves of those who worship at the altar of the almighty dollar. But I don't have the patience or the masochistic tendencies to keep hammering at the impregnable wall of your faith, so have a great weekend, everyone. One last thing before I go, a quote from my favorite article of the day:
http://www.gq.com/entertainment/books/200911/ayn-rand-dick-books-fountainhead?printable=true

You can't spend more than five minutes on a Rand-related chat room without seeing a teacher (or social worker, or environmentalist) declaimed as a "risk avoider/merit denouncer." This affect, it should be added, is the trademark symptom of a collegiate Randian infection. Where, say, undergraduate Marxists share a certain narcoleptic insouciance, freshly afflicted Randians evince a showier disregard for those who can't or won't see the light. Showy—but serene, in a way that's cultish and weird. And unintentionally funny, since the only other young people possessed of such grim serenity are those homeschooled Christian fundamentalists who have the ability to transmit—with nothing more than a silent, pitying look—that they know (1) the Rapture is imminent, (2) they'll be taken up, and (3) you'll be spending eternity steeping in a liquid-shit Jacuzzi.

It appears you've never seen this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4257380658817319490#

 

[njs]

What? I usually get an appointment within 2 days - same day, if it's an emergency.

The argument that the only thing wrong with the US healthcare system is government interference, is laughable.

Only 23% of Canadians report being able to get an appointment with a physician on the same day. This is 24th out of 28 countries. I guess it's not problem if you've only been coughing a little. Not so much if you cut off a finger or your kid gets meningitis.

Why would you want an appointment with a family physician if you'd cut off a finger?

I can only speak from my own experience of the UK system.

Why goto the hospital and wait in line for 20 hours when you can just call an ambulance and wait in the relative comfort of rolling emergency room?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-515332/A-E-patients-left-ambulances-FIVE-hours-trusts-meet-government-targets.html

 

[njs]

No, I'm for progressive taxation, not arbitrary prices on consumer goods. What's your point?

I'm grateful to the wealthier guy for his greater than average contribution to our schools, roads, and other services, but if he starts whining about carrying more than his share, I'm not gonna be terribly sympathetic. Maybe he works twice as hard and twice as smart as the guy grossing $150k, and maybe he doesn't, but either way he can sure as hell afford his 35% tax burden without terrible sacrifice.

Progressive taxation recognizes that financial reward is not necessarily commensurate with someone's work, or other contribution to society. How much benefit does a soldier give to society? Are we, as a society, hundreds of times better off from the effort of a basketball star than from the effort of a soldier?

Should a soldier have to pay the same number of dollars in taxes as a basketball star, or bank executive?

Do you even remotely understand that people with lots of money generally provide to those they get money from (exception being politicians, unless "hope" can be defined as providing someone with something)? Does the idea of voluntary trade completely escape you?

I doesn't matter how hard someone worked, or how smart they are. In a market someone can only get money and wealth by providing something to others.

Markets are the ultimate democracy. Votes (money) are doled out based upon how much you are able to help those around you.

 

[Miles]

Why goto the hospital and wait in line for 20 hours when you can just call an ambulance and wait in the relative comfort of rolling emergency room?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-515332/A-E-patients-left-ambulances-FIVE-hours-trusts-meet-government-targets.html

I don't recall waiting 20 hours to be seen after I broke my finger in a bicycle accident.....

 

[julesa]

No, I'm for progressive taxation, not arbitrary prices on consumer goods. What's your point?

I'm grateful to the wealthier guy for his greater than average contribution to our schools, roads, and other services, but if he starts whining about carrying more than his share, I'm not gonna be terribly sympathetic. Maybe he works twice as hard and twice as smart as the guy grossing $150k, and maybe he doesn't, but either way he can sure as hell afford his 35% tax burden without terrible sacrifice.

Progressive taxation recognizes that financial reward is not necessarily commensurate with someone's work, or other contribution to society. How much benefit does a soldier give to society? Are we, as a society, hundreds of times better off from the effort of a basketball star than from the effort of a soldier?

Should a soldier have to pay the same number of dollars in taxes as a basketball star, or bank executive?

Do you even remotely understand that people with lots of money generally provide to those they get money from (exception being politicians, unless "hope" can be defined as providing someone with something)? Does the idea of voluntary trade completely escape you?

I doesn't matter how hard someone worked, or how smart they are. In a market someone can only get money and wealth by providing something to others.

Markets are the ultimate democracy. Votes (money) are doled out based upon how much you are able to help those around you.

This might be an interesting conversation in a world where all markets are perfectly free and all parties to every transaction have perfect and free access to all information relevant to every transaction. But such markets and transactions do not exist, money is always an imperfect measure of value, and this isn't an interesting conversation.