Diodes for parallel battery hook-up- Yes or No?

Mundo

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I am going to be hooking up two 48 Volt 10 AH Ping batteries for a 48 volt 20 AH battery.
According to Mister Ping, I should use diodes when hooking up these batteries.

These batteries will be going in custom boxes on the side loaders of a new Yuba Mundo build.

Is this critical for such a small battery?
Anyway, how is diode size decided?
Are they installed on the positive side of each battery?

Mr. Ping has also suggested, using switches for each battery. When one pack is completely drained, switch to the other.

As you all know, there's nothing cheap about doing these builds, if diodes help protect the batteries, then it's a good idea.

Additionally, this will be a Mid-Drive build, motor from Urban-Commuter.

Any help is really appreciated,

Bob / Mundo
 
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=diodes&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
 
why do you need diodes? i really just do not get this. and then people always think they need to have huge high voltage diodes too. not fair to dump a huge search on him, this guy doesn't know which of all those threads has anything relevant, or how to figure out who actually knows what they are talking about anyway. why ping tells people this is beyond me too.

nobody will ever explain why there has to be a diode in parallel with each pack when they are in series either. and i have asked a number of times. just don't get it.
 
dnmun said:
why do you need diodes? i really just do not get this. and then people always think they need to have huge high voltage diodes too. not fair to dump a huge search on him, this guy doesn't know which of all those threads has anything relevant, or how to figure out who actually knows what they are talking about anyway. why ping tells people this is beyond me too.

nobody will ever explain why there has to be a diode in parallel with each pack when they are in series either. and i have asked a number of times. just don't get it.

We've discussed this to death in the past, with members like Tiberius even going to the lengths of designing and building high current ideal diodes specifically for hooking up batteries like the Ping (i.e.those with a built in BMS) together in parallel with low losses. The bottom line is that you can directly parallel safely at the cell level, you can directly parallel slightly less safely at just the pack level with no internal BMS and you usually need diodes if the pack has an inbuilt BMS (as the Ping packs do).

Sometimes it's easier to refer a poster that asks this age old question back to those discussions, rather than one or two of us having to take the time to type the whole thing out yet again.
 
As mr ping explained it to me, the bms tolerates up to 5 amps of regen ok. He told me any more than 5 amps of regen current could damage something in the bms. A non diode connection could potentialy result in a flow of power more than 5 amps,( when one pack bms trips before the other does) so he says use a diode.

In your particular case, the best option could be to paralell the batteries at the cell level much like we do the RC lipo. Paralell them, then run one bms. You might want to beef up the wires between the cell groups, then make a y connection to the original sense wires to the bms. So you paralell both the sense wires and the main wires that lead to the bms.
 
Yes, you should use diodes so you don't have to worry about damaging your packs.

Diodes in series with one of the output leads, usually the positive, on both packs will prevent one pack from discharing into the other one (with no over-voltage protection). An important point here, and this is also related to regen, is that the BMS (Signalab and others) will not protect the cells from over voltage when the charge is input on the packs discharge leads (only on the charger inout). Theoretically, if both packs have equal charge when starting out, and if both packs are fully charged each time, you could put them in parallel. But what if one has a different charge on it when you put them together? What if you forgot to charge one? What if pack #1 discharges faster than pack #2 and shuts off, causing pack #2 to pump current into Pack #1's BMS ? Too many gotchas for the typical noob. Those ideal diodes are the best but you can use high quality schottky diodes that cost about $4. You want the TO220 package with dual internal diodes of 20A each with low forward voltage. Cut off the center leg and solder the the other two together. Solder one lead to this and one to the tab. Optionally put a piece of metal on the tab for a heatsink. Cover in heatshrink tubing and you are done.

You need diodes when putting packs in series for the same reason but the diodes are connected differently.

Dogman, you are mixing up the fix for protecting the pack from regen. You use a diode and special wiring to direct the regen current into the charger input where the BMS can protect the pack from over-voltage. The charger input only has one cheap MOSFET, so is rated at 5A. You can parallel a mosfet and or add a heatsink to increase that.
 
Well, we are way over my head as usual. I just know ping told me 5v of regen was permitted on V2.5 bms. Defintiely more amps than that could flow with no diodes. You coud think you have the packs paralelled, but have a poor connection. Then one pack discharges and the other doesn't. 12 ah down the road, a bump restores contact, and now your full pack discharges like mad into the discharged one. Not good.

On the flip side, you could likely run for a long time before having anything happen that actually made the diodes needed.

For example, two paralelled packs without diodes will theoreticaly discharge at fairly similar rates. So if charged is 60v, and a battery is run till both are at 54v, hows one going to charge the other past 60v? Doesn't seem possible to me.

But yeah, Ping did warn me not to engage regen on a pack that is fully charged, then ride down a hill. Potential to over charge a pack with regen that way.

Dual voltmeters on two paralelled packs would be one easy way to at least know what is going on. You see one pack dropping a lot more than the other, time to break that connection and run em seperate.

I think one thing is certain, those who need to provide a warranty will always say use the diodes.
 
All good points and I will take them all under advisement.


One additional concern, battery consumption.... Using a 48 vdc solenoid, some voltage loss, diodes, more voltage loss and a LED panel light, warning system is still on.

Perhaps these are nominal, still remain considerations.

Thanks you all for your thoughtful replies,

Wish I had a DC Amp meter ($$$) for testing each component!
 
You can virtually remove the diode loss by using the ideal diodes I mentioned earlier. I don't know if Tiberius still has any for sale, but the thread describing them is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11016&hilit=ideal+diode
 
I hooked 2 36v10ah pings in parallel, no diodes.
The connector to the controller failed, the terminal shorted together. The BMS's on the batteries caught fire.
The BMS can not protect from incoming current, when the batteries are in Parallel the current from the other battery when the BMS trips on one pack blows the fets on the BMS, stuff shorts, insulation melts, things catch fire.

YOU MUST, either have fuses on each + lead before the parallel connection or diodes to prevent reverse current flow.

I am going to post some photos to freak you out and make you love diodes. I have had the failure twice. Learn from my mistakes.
 

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Yeah, I have to agree, dead shorting any bms would be potentially bad.
 
dnmun said:
that is not what happened. nothing to do with diodes, none of those threads that AW referenced made any mention of why diodes are needed either.

We've discussed this to death before, so don't see why we have to waste time explaining it all again, but here's a quick summary:

The BMS on some packs (those that have a set of FETs that are used to switch the supply off under fault conditions, like those in the Ping pack) cannot cope with significant reverse current or reverse voltage nor can they cope with voltages in excess of the single pack voltage. The reverse current or excess/reverse voltage can arise from a fault in one pack, from high regen current or from something simple like one pack cutting off under excessive current or low cell voltage.
 
To answer the question as asked: NO

I have 10 lipo batts in parallel and 0 diodes without issue.

Do you need diodes when hooking up batteries with internal BMS/electonics? Yes.
 
IMHO never parallel them if there is a BMS on each pack.

Common the negative leads of the two packs and use a beefy "Break Before Make" change-over switch between the two positive leads.



Some extra benefits of this way will give you a better indication of weather you'll have enough for the return trip.
When one battery goes flat you know that you'd better turn around.
You don't have to work out a complex charging setup as the existing charge sockets will still work as they were.
HTH, Ed.
 
Looks like a great plan for packs that can handle the c rate if run individually. Buying big enough pings in the first place myself, I never did anything but run one and then the other. I had different voltages too, so couldn't paralell unless I added 12v to one of em.

Did I misunderstand something back there? Kiwi said " connector to the controller failed, the terminal shorted together."

I read that to mean, "I shorted the pack". I don't recall the whole thread.
 
yep, was not an anderson connector, some automotive style connector used on the cell man controller, the battery wire got pulled on and the contacts pulled out of the plastic plug and touched/welded together, dead short. Anderson would have unpluged, but this plug had a clip to the other half so the terminals pulled out of the housing and you end up with bare terminals wanting to get it on.
 
<from another thread>:

combining batteries in parallel is fairly simple to understand.

if you have 2 lifepo4 packs which have the same voltage then you can combine them directly without diodes.

this includes a situation in which you combine different capacity packs as well, such as combining a 10Ah pack with a 20Ah pack in parallel.

after charging them up to the same voltage with the charger, you combine them by connecting the P- leads together first, then you put a resistor across the two positive (red) leads to equalize the voltage on each pack , then connect the two red leads together. from this point on you always keep the two batteries connected and charge them up together.

do not put switches between them, do not put diodes between them. when they are connected together this way, they share the load when discharging and they will split the charging current between themselves as well so that they both will climb in voltage together and reach full charge at the same time.

if you disconnect them and one pack is discharged separately, then you have to go through the same procedure, charging up and using the resistor to finally equalize them every time you recombine them in parallel.

you should never use a lifepo4 pack wihout a BMS, combining the two packs in parallel does not affect the BMS which functions normally and when one pack has reached LVC and the output mosfets shut off on that side then the current will continue to be delivered by the other pack until it cuts out at LVC.

this will be at two different pack voltages usually so you should recharge immediately when the first pack reaches LVC. at this point the battery remaining is having to produce more than twice the current it did at the start and so you want to restrict it's discharge rate at that time.

resetting the BMS that shut off and then continuing at dramatically reduced power may allow you enuff travel distance to get the packs back to the charger.

when charging two different capacity packs in parallel, the charging current will be split between the two packs proportionally to their capacity and they will both charge up to their full capacity at the final charger voltage. and then they balance at that voltage until the charger shuts off.

you should not combine two packs in parallel with different voltages, such as a 36V and a 48V pack even with a diode to protect the lower pack from the upper pack.

but if you have different chemistries, such as nicad or nimh or SLA combined with the lifepo4 in parallel you need to use a diode on the output of two packs to combine them, to prevent current from flowing from one pack to the other.

for this situation where you combine the two different types of packs, you would select a schottky diode capable of withstanding the maximum voltage difference between the two packs.

so a 48V nicad pack fully charged is about 54V and a 48V lifepo4 pack is about 58V so you would need a schottky diode of at least 4-5V but something around 20V is the smallest they sell for these power diodes and the higher the breakdown voltage the more expensive it costs. but more important is that the forward voltage across the diode when it is conducting is directly related to the the reverse breakdown voltage. you want this forward voltage to be small because that determines how much heat the diode produces. power =VxI.

the schottky diode has three legs in the To-220AB package. the current comes out of the center leg called the cathode, and you connect each battery's positive terminal to the outside leg of the schottky. that is called the anode.

all the current from the two packs flows out of the center leg and that is what you connect to the motor controller positive lead.

you can also use two axial schottky diodes, one for each pack, with the cathodes soldered together to the controller lead and the anodes to each of the packs.

after you know what voltage diode you need, then select the diode current carrying capacity that is able to handle all the current you expect your battery pack to produce at maximum discharge. this is why they are expensive because a large schottky capable of handling a lot of current gets expensive fast.

the problem with combining different battery chemistries in parallel is the restricted voltage range of the older SLA and nicad chemistries compared to lifepo4. a fully discharged 48V nicad pack is around 40V but the 48V lifepo4 pack will continue producing current down to about 32V.

to protect the nicad pack, the controller LVC of 40V will shut off the controller so the nicad pack is not over discharged. this leaves a lot of charge on the lifepo4 pack so you only are able to produce about 65% of the lifepo4 pack power.

so if you wish to combine the lifepo4 and the nicad, use a 36V controller and a 36V nicad pack. the 30V LVC of the controller will protect the nicad pack. then you would combine a 48V lifepo4 pack with the 36V nicad in parallel using a 20-30V diode since the nicad would be charged to about 40V and the fully charged lifepo4 would be around 57V.

in this case, the nicad would be restricted from releasing current through the diode because the output voltage is so much higher than the nicad fully charged voltage, and the lifepo4 would not be pushing current inot the nicad because the 20V diode blocks it.

when the lifepo4 pack has been discharged down to the 40V of the nicad then the nicad would add current through the diode to the current from the lifepo4 until the LVC of the controller shut off. this protects the nicad. the BMS on the lifepo4 protects that pack.

in this case with the 36V nicad and the 48V lifepo4, you would only need one axial schottky diode on the output of the nicad pack, and no diode would be needed on the lifepo4 at all.

looking in mouser catalog, ON semiconductor 1N5817G, 20V 25A axial diode is $.20. it has Vforward of .45V so when the max 25A current is flowing the diode is only producing about 10 watts of heat.

but that heat is only produced at the end of the discharge of the packs. if you also had a big diode in the lifepo4 pack output, it would be producing a lot more heat because it produces more current over a longer period, so it would need a heatsink.

but that axial diode on the nicad pack will get hot so mount it so it is not touching anything that will melt and is out in the open air for cooling.

that is the only situation in which i can see the need for diodes to combine two packs in parallel. a 36V nicad and a 48V lifepo4, in which you would be able to get the maximum capacity out of the two packs. and only a 20 cent diode needed.

this requires common sense to manage. charge the nicad up first and the lifpo4 next to insure that the voltage between the 2 packs does not exceed the 20V breakdown, or choose a 30V diode to be safer, 1N5818G 20V 25A .55V forward bias, 13 watts of heat at max current.

you can also find the same features in TO-220AC packages, so you could dissipate the heat with a heat sink too.
 
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