Doc GOT 100 samples of Titanate LTO cells update 6june 2011

[Doctorbass]

According to many articles, they are more like 67Wh/kg and 8000W/kg and 1.8V nominal.. but i need to doublecheck since there is NO data on google by searching with the numbers on the cells :?

I contacted Karim, the creator of these cells at IREQ to get more specs for these cells.

If really they are 8000W/gk, and 1Ah capacity with 37g wetght, that mean a C-rate of around 140C !!

While there is genrally all lithium cells with higher C rate on discharge and lower on charge, i also asked him WHY all the graph we can find about them are showing a charge C rate of 15C and a discharge C rate of 5C....

If really they are 140C, that mean they are like a super capacitor but with more energy density and a flat curve!!!

It would be 8000W per kg, charge in 4 minutes, last 30 000cycles without noticing any capacity lost....

Just Perfect for Ev drag racing!!!!

.. well.. I hope...

 

[Doctorbass]

GUESS WHAT !!!?

I CONFIRM..... .... ... roll the drum... ... THEY AUTOBALANCE !!!!

Also I got the spec sheet!!! ( but it is confidential from now si i'll keep it safe and Confidential as well until i have the authorization)

 

[liveforphysics]

0.8Ah per cell, 1.8v nominal. 1.44watt-hours per cell.

37grams per cell.

38.9watt-hours per Kg.

For a racing application, it needs a 150c discharge just to match a 30c discharge LiPo cell performance for a given size/weight pack.

 

[Arlo1]

GUESS WHAT !!!?

I CONFIRM..... .... ... roll the drum... ... THEY AUTOBALANCE !!!!

Also I got the spec sheet!!! ( but it is confidential from now si i'll keep it safe and Confidential as well until i have the authorization)

Where do we order them from doc? I need something less dangerous for the girfiends scooter!

 

[neptronix]

"Auto balancing" like li-mn is a plus. That keeps the cost down of the pack.
But this power density is really bad. I think it will find some applications where power to weight/size ratio is not important, if t the price is low and the calendar life is high.

I see it as a lead acid replacement.

 

[liveforphysics]

GUESS WHAT !!!?

I CONFIRM..... .... ... roll the drum... ... THEY AUTOBALANCE !!!!

Also I got the spec sheet!!! ( but it is confidential from now si i'll keep it safe and Confidential as well until i have the authorization)

Where do we order them from doc? I need something less dangerous for the girfiends scooter!

Lead would get you self balancing, the same energy per weight of battery, but better energy per volume, and a c-rate that is all your GF would need.



Or you could step up your game, and go NiCd for your girl, it also self balances, and could make the battery about 30% lighter.

 

[grindz145]

"Auto balancing" like li-mn is a plus. That keeps the cost down of the pack.
But this power density is really bad. I think it will find some applications where power to weight/size ratio is not important, given that the price is low and the calendar life is high.

I see it as a lead acid replacement.

How is the price low? Titanium is NOT cheap....

 

[Arlo1]

Lead would get you self balancing, the same energy per weight of battery, but better energy per volume, and a c-rate that is all your GF would need.



Or you could step up your game, and go NiCd for your girl, it also self balances, and could make the battery about 30% lighter.

Hey man the plan is different for now. I know you are the world wide spokes person for nano tech lipo but.... I just need a small amount of 100% safe batteries with 0% chance of fire or destruction caused by the batteries. I might step up her scooter to a better battery when I have time to build a BMS that will let me sleep at night!
You have to understand its someone who does no maintence and I dont have time to check it every charge. What I am planing is more of a plug in hybrid which will spend a lot of time charging from regen or even part throttle and not from the wall.

 

[flathill]

Impressive cycle life and borderline acceptable capacity for 1st gen Li4Ti5O12. Might be more suitable for stationary apps...a fridge size pack could easily power a typical house (that isn't bitcoin mining )

 

[neptronix]

"Auto balancing" like li-mn is a plus. That keeps the cost down of the pack.
But this power density is really bad. I think it will find some applications where power to weight/size ratio is not important, given that the price is low and the calendar life is high.

I see it as a lead acid replacement.

How is the price low? Titanium is NOT cheap....

I have seen a few articles touting cycle lifes in the 5,000-10,000 cycle range.
And in the same articles they are claiming it is a low cost battery too, then again most companies claim that, don't they :lol:

http://www.toshiba.com/ind/product_display.jsp?id1=821

http://power-depot.co.uk/battery-blog/Lithium_Titanate_Battery-Charge_18000_Times.htm

Altair nano claims a 12 year calendar life with 18,000 cycles.

Maybe what they mean by 'low cost' when that is claimed, is that it provides a hell of a lot of cycles per $.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

given that the price is low and the calendar life is high.

Where is the price stated?

 

[neptronix]

I'm sorry, i used the wrong wording there. Been editing elementary algebra lessons all day for work and used the word 'given' to imply that i was making an assumption about the price and cycle life.

Original post updated.

I have heard the low cost claim in a few press releases about lithium titanate batteries in the past, but i don't think anyone knows what it cost yet.

 

[Doctorbass]

Yes, They are low cost for many reasons such as they don’t use copper electrode but aluminum instead. That’s one of the reason they don’t weight 44g like others, but 37g. Plus, I have read that the chemical process is much more simpler about the application of the nano particules to the electrodes.

Their MEASURED cycle life before 80% capcity is 30 000cycles at 100% DOD. That make them to also cost less per Wh over their cycle life. They have less capacity and energy stored per cycle.. YES.. but they do 15 time the amount of energy stored over their entire cycle life… so if you calculate how much energy these cells would have stored in their entire life, that is alot more than all other popular cell chemistry!.. The LiFePo4 are 2000cycle 100%dod but have 110Wh/kg... the LTO have 48Wh/kg wich is 2.3 time less energy per cycles.. BUT if you can use them 15 time more, that equal to 6.5time the total energy stored over theyr cycle life for the LTO wich is now very interesting!

These cells was developed for EV that could recharge quickly and multiple times along the path they do.. like city bus, postal car etc..

That’s one of the solution to conteract the fact that people don’t want to spend 35000$ on a lilthium battery to get 500km… instead one of the solution is to make smaller and cheaper battery that charge more times but that last for decades!

Plus, that help to recover a better percentage of regenerative braking energy due to the better charging C-rate… other actual electric car are limited to recover just a percentage of the braking energy due to the battery limitation… 15C charge battery is a solution.

About the recharge these battery become closer to a capacitor on recharge but with a flat discharge curve for the discharge..

Doc

 

[olaf-lampe]

I was wondering, how you want to connect them? Spotwelding or soldering is a bit tricky with aluminium poles. Imagine the horror of building a big pack like in the tesla roadster and then have to exchange some bad ones over the years. :x
Did you try to get some Li-Titanate cells from EIG too? IIRC they announced a 12Ah pouch cell a few years back. But never seen any...
-Olaf

 

[liveforphysics]

I was wondering, how you want to connect them? Spotwelding or soldering is a bit tricky with aluminium poles. Imagine the horror of building a big pack like in the tesla roadster and then have to exchange some bad ones over the years. :x
Did you try to get some Li-Titanate cells from EIG too? IIRC they announced a 12Ah pouch cell a few years back. But never seen any...
-Olaf

EIG and Altair Nano are grouped up now. Toured the factory in Korea.

 

[steveo]

BRING OUT THE MEGA DISCHARGER DOC lol

100 amp discharge?

hehe

-steveo

 

[CamLight]

Heck, his CC-400 can easily do 150A with these cells.

 

[Doctorbass]

There is something i need to clarify about those cells before puting them on the CC-400

Their discharge C rate on teh specs is 5C :? ... yes.. 5C.. and they are 1000mAh so that's 5A per cell :|

And.. curiously.. these are the only cell i know that accept a higher CHARGE RATE than a DISCHARGE RATE !!

I would say that normally if we can cahrge these cells at 15C.. we could discharge them at 15C too.. but... nothing talk about that...

5A at 1.8V is 9W per cell

I have 100 of those so it's 900Watts max discharge i would get from them

Wow.. perfect for a BionX .. but charge in 4 minutes :lol:

Their internal resitance is 24 miliohm... yes.. 24 miliohm per Ah... pretty close to the M1 A123 cell of 10 miliohm per 2.3Ah

About how to solder them.. I plan on spotwelding some nickel strip to them that i'll bend and solder on them just like i suggest for the already spotwelded konion...


well.. i'm still not sure they are just 5C dishcarge.. but i need to confirm

 

[Arlo1]

There is something i need to clarify about those cells before puting them on the CC-400

Their discharge C rate on teh specs is 5C :? ... yes.. 5C.. and they are 1000mAh so that's 5A per cell :|

And.. curiously.. these are the only cell i know that accept a higher CHARGE RATE than a DISCHARGE RATE !!

I would say that normally if we can cahrge these cells at 15C.. we could discharge them at 15C too.. but... nothing talk about that...

5A at 1.8V is 9W per cell

I have 100 of those so it's 900Watts max discharge i would get from them

Wow.. perfect for a BionX .. but charge in 4 minutes :lol:

Their internal resitance is 24 miliohm... yes.. 24 miliohm per Ah... pretty close to the M1 A123 cell of 10 miliohm per 2.3Ah

About how to solder them.. I plan on spotwelding some nickel strip to them that i'll bend and solder on them just like i suggest for the already spotwelded konion...


well.. i'm still not sure they are just 5C dishcarge.. but i need to confirm

IN a large pack the discharge rate is not such a big deal like for instance if I was to use these in my YSR build I would run a 100 volt 40 ah pac so 5c at 40 ah is 200 amps thats still 20 000 watts and thats a little motorcycle pack and 27 hp before losses is pretty fast in the little bike Im building!

 

[liveforphysics]

Arlo- That would be a 230lbs battery.... You could use optima yellow tops and be lighter and less volume in your YSR.

 

[Arlo1]

Arlo- That would be a 230lbs battery.... You could use optima yellow tops and be lighter and less volume in your YSR.

Yeh I am not going to use these in the YSR, the ysr will be lipo of some sort (dont worry buddy) but I was just showing the discharge would be ok.

 

[muffildy]

Does anyone know of any source for LTO cells?
I know:
altair nano wont sell
SCiB wont sell
ener1 wont sell

Rumored pricing i have found:
2400$ for a 1.3 kwh altair nano module
675$ for a 100 wh SCiB module

 

[Lock]

Does anyone know of any source for LTO cells?

Found another one. EVE Energy:
http://www.evebattery.com/en/index.htm

Their web site doesn't mention LTO but their Euro rep just posted to LinkedIn:

Li-Ion Cells for E-bike/scooter battery packs with advanced BMS functionality

Please find hereby an overview of the 10Ah and 20Ah cells ,suitable for E-bikes / scooters, and the different technologies we are using right now.

Next to these cells ,we are manufacturing also battery packs ,including standard BMS functionality. Additional hard- and software to the standard BMS is available to read out :

- the number of cycles
- individual cell voltage
- total battery pack voltage
- total battery current
- battery pack temperature
- SOC
- Remaining time to full-charge

Via an RS232, MSbus, I²C, Canbus or HDQ Interface

Available Cells :

LFP (LiFePO4) Technology
- Partnumber : FG10155230 20Ah / 3.2V
2500 cycles > 80%
- Partnumber : 1067MO 10Ah / 3.2V
2500 cycles > 80%

LTO (Li4Ti5O12) Technology
- MT12155230 20Ah/ 2.3V
5000 cycles > 80%

NMC (LiNiMnCoO2) Technology
- 7063Q0-10Ah / 3.6V
700 cycles > 70% (1000 cycles available Q2/2012)
- 8067M0-10Ah
700 cycles > 70% (1000 cycles available Q2/2012)
- 9067M0-12Ah
700 cycles > 70% (1000 cycles available Q2/2012)

If you are interested in the technical specifications please send me a mail and I will forward you the related information.

Best regards,
Wim
--
EVE ENERGY CO., LTD.
EUROPE BRANCH OFFICE
wim@evebattery-europe.com
www.evebattery.com

First mention for EVE on ES as far as I can tell... From the EVE site:

EVE Energy Co., Ltd was founded in 2001 and specializes in high-energy lithium batteries. EVE is the largest provider of Primary lithium cells within China. In October 2009, EVE became the first company listed on GEM in Shenzhen (Stock code: 300014.SZ).

EVE insisted on independent development and technological innovation. Those strong believe brought rewards and today EVEholds 43 national patents. Two of which were granted the "China Patent Award of Excellence" by the State Intellectual Property Office, and possessed the advantages of technology and production scale in the field of Li/SOCl2, Li/MnO2 and Li/FeS2 batteries as well.

If anybuddy emails Wim for the specs, report here! (Prices and availability would be good too...)

Lock

 

[sangesf]

I sent him an email and will find out the specs, availability, etc hopefully soon.

 

[BYqSXt8Z]

batteryspace has some too

https://www.batteryspace.com/Lithium-Titanate-Battery.aspx