Dogman Dans E bike burns his house.

Dude, that's bullshit. I'm really sorry that happened. I don't know what else to tell you. Glad you escaped without injury.

My parents have had four major house fires, the first when I was just eleven years old. The second and third didn't really involve me, but wiped out most of the mementos I'd saved up to that time. Their house still isn't fully rebuilt from the fourth one. Anyway, those fires were all from different causes, and all completely unpredictable except for the one that my teen baby sister started by lighting a candle in a bookshelf. (Doh.)

What I learned is that ultimately stuff is just stuff, shit happens, and it's a huge drag getting back to normal. But you do get back to normal. At the same time, I wish you didn't have to do it. You deserve better.

Let me know if there's anything bike related I can help with, when it's time to work on that.
 
Thanks for sharing your story and I hope our support for you helps in some small way.

Everyone can learn something from this but I only wish we knew the exact cause. There has to be some things we can do to reduce the likelihood of a repeat. I'm definitely going to disarm those old Lipo cells I have sitting in the garage. Certain aspects of pack construction might play a key role, as well as smarter BMS boards.
 
Sorry to hear Dan, but glad to hear your insurance company is going to cover it as they should, and obviously most importantly that everyone is OK.
Hopefully there's a silver lining that you get to replace some old gear with new stuff, or maybe rebuild parts of the house that you can better enjoy in your retirement. Understandably you're going to be flat our rebuilding everything, but hopefully this doesn't deter you from the joys of ebiking too much. I went through a period where I rode my ICE bikes for months without touching and ebike but when I got back on the ebike months later I wondered why I'd not ridden it all this time.

I've had a few near misses with fires now too but as I always tell people, anything that stores great amounts of energy has the potential to blow up or catch fire. Be it gasoline, compressed gas, batteries, nuclear, hell even steam. Not to mention the countless random electrical and car fires that are happening all over the world right at this very second. All we can do is take the precautions.
 
Thanks for taking the time to share Dan. You have always been one of my favorite reads on the forum and I always figured if I were ever to venture to New Mexico again I would have you on my list as an interesting contact. Good luck getting it all together again and hope to see more posts from you in the future.
 
Glad you and yours are ok Dogman.

Thanks for being a good person and explaining what you went thru it could very well save someone's life.
 
After reading the story and all of the following post. All I can say is, happy to hear that you and family are fine. Sorry to hear that you would go down with your dogs, I thought I was the only one that would do such a thing. Hang in there Dan, take care of the wife and then the dogs and things will get better.

From one Dan to Another Dan, get well soon.
 
Yes a terrible thing to hear about from one of this forums best helper, something no one needs but hopefully will make others pay attention to lessen future fires and safe keep/charge procedures, typical that the one time you take a nap that this happens and never when in supervision, well I wish you better luck in the future
 
This really sucks to hear. I don't blame you for losing enthusiasm for ebikes after this, and i really hope future battery tech becomes safer to the point where you could feel confident in riding again.

I'm very glad that you had proper insurance and are not facing an even greater loss. We've seen worse.

Given that you are probably going to remain disappeared for a while, maybe forever.. I'd like to say thank you for helping me when i was a newbie, and thank you for your near-decade of service in helping others here. ES won't be the same without you but you earned your hero medal here already :).

I will continue to try to educate people about batteries and nudge them away from buying these cheap alibaba specials. A cheap BMS is probably to blame here for not doing it's job and thus giving a false sense of security. We can't keep handing these Chinese companies money to produce more and more of this crap. I hope people take notice and it influences their buying decisions.
 
That is too bad. This reinforces me not to buy 'shady' batteries online. It's all hindsight now but perhaps a better idea would have been to charge it in your back yard, its all 20-20 now though. Good thing it didnt take down your entire house.

I myself will look into a discarded BBQ for charging, I've always tended to babysit the charging process.
Ever since I frocked up my first battery Hobby King LiPo's (Drained them to over the cliff then charged them at what I thought was slow 0.5C) - That reinforces to me that a LVC for me, is required. Even now when the KT LVC kicks in, I am always trying to get that extra little jump kick then break a sweat and peddle.

I feel good now paying $60/Ah pack (56V 5Ah EGO) from Home Depot.
I think my next battery will be from Justin when I roll through there in the future. Saves me the $80 Hazmat fee and Shipping fee. Same price as HD, but more praticle.

Lessons to learn
1) Dont buy shady batteries online
2) Charge in a fireproof place (BBQ case, metal cabinet, ammo cases) away from flammable items
3) Dont trust no one!
4) Put faith in reputable sellers like Justin, sure you spendy a lil morey but hey, low risk of non-user fault fires.

OOoopps sorry, I edit a lot..........One last thing, SMOKE ALARMS are a worthy investment!!!!!!!!
That should actually be the BIGGEST lesson to be taught here.
I actually have one that I just bought and will always have it right above my batteries (perhaps a foot above, on its own stand) ALWAYS!!!!!!!! Whether they are charging, not charging, sitting, picking their nose, chillaxing.
 
oh my god :shock:
glad to hear nobody got hurt, and how quick the fire company arrived. this safed your house for sure!

I always have in my mind how it looks when LiIon cells catch fire, and beacuse of that i never charge when i'm going to sleep and i always store them on a non-flammable floor.

Once i generated a short (just for interest) on one single 18650 cell (half charged) until it got too hot and bursted into flames.
I was shocked how big the heat and fire was, coming from one single 18650!
More than one feet long flames came out on top after the sealing melted and it got leaky. very similar to a big new years rocket, together with very dark smoke.

All the best dogman!
 
Thanks for the support guys, it means a lot, and maybe I should have looked for it sooner. I just had so much to do, dealing with getting the recovery going.

I'm getting through the PTSD, as is my wife and the dogs. I'm not waking up at night having the dream about it anymore. That ended after a month. But typing out the story yesterday I still went fight or flight, got all shaky and had to take several breaks to finish it.

I don't think I'm gone for good now, or done completely with e bikes. A few ride shows me that. But I want that 90mph scooter back too. :twisted: What to do about a battery I can trust is a dilemma. I just don't see myself owning 3000 wh anymore, or running 2000w energy hog motors much, once my current 48v 20 ah of lipo dies. Its just going to be too expensive to get a lot of capacity that is UN certified.

For sure, my cheap ass battery was a very bad choice. No idea what bms was in it,, except it surely was the cheapest they could source. What would I like to see on the e bike battery of the future? At the very least, a cell monitoring port, a 14 pin plug your local bike shop tech can use. Better, low voltage alarms that let you know if the bms is failing you. That thing starts beeping,, DONT CHARGE IT. Best of all, frock that cheap bms for charging. Get truly smart chargers, and charge each individual string separately. Get a real balance charge each cycle, along with a display that tells you,, hey,, this cell group is not within a small % same as the others.

Currently, your warning that your battery is about to burn your house down, is,,, it just did. Not adequate, and I'm certain hybrid cars, and teslas, have much more sophisticated protections built in. Our bikes do not.


But really,, I just got lucky again. I hit the bad luck lotto again, just as I did with the west nile virus. Something like .1% of people with the virus get as permanently sick as I did. and likely about .1% of people with a lithium battery in the house have it burn. Likely even less, for bms protected batteries. Hell, those odds might be more like .0001%, but I won that lotto.

If only I could beat odds like that on the real lotto, it would be great.

My lesson is this though,,,, just don't charge the thing so close to your coats, your motorcycle full of gas, etc. I could have put that fire out ( the garage, not the battery itself), if the bike had been at least 2 feet from so much flammable shit. Others have,, we've seen it here. drag the thing out the garage door, and you have some nasty lithium smoke damage, but the fire can be put out once the damn battery is out the door. This was always my plan for a disaster charging in my fireplace. Get the battery out the door, then hose the room. Fire extinguishers were close, but not so close they'd be in the fire. Only a few months a year did I charge in the garage, the months I wanted to use my fireplace for, you know, a fire. Lipo would charge outside in winter. BTW,, the garage was not smoke alarmed. We heard the cells popping, which woke up my wife, thank god. Smoke alarms would have got us out of the house in time, but not the dogs, 3 times. Smoke alarm where you charge... in addition to what the house has.

Right now though, not much energy left for recreation, so e-bikes and motorcycles on the back burner for the season. I've been doing a lot of the easier (?) work on the house. It's pretty much cleared of the smoke smell, and all the items on the remove and replace list removed. So not much time for ES still. Kind of funny,, our abysmal hoarder style housekeeping made the smoke cleaning easier. All the soot just landed on a thick layer of dust, so book cases, tops of tall furniture, etc did not get soot penetrating into it. Before any cleaning really began, I hit the house with an ozone generator. Those that say that doesn't work are full of crap. The soot dust remained to be cleaned, but the ozone took all the stink out of it. My attic at present is still full of soot, but hardly stinks at all.

So the kind of long wait for my contractor to start has been good in the end, all the dust to be stirred up soon will not stink. I will not have to strip the house to bare studs to get it odor free. Once the contractor gets rocking and rolling, it should not take all that long to be back in the house. Once he gets started, I'll have more time, just taking care of two yards all summer. He might hire me to work on the house more, but I think I did enough already to cancel out the cost of the extras we want. ( the new garage will be fully insulated)

The house will, in some ways be much better than before. Funds to replace our garage sale junk will pay for a few remodels I had been wanting to do for years. The kitchen was always a but of a kludge. When we moved in, it was the worst kitchen I've ever lived with, including shitty apartments and campers. Originally built by some short people, cabinets were improperly installed, and a normal size person would whack bloddy knots on their heads daily. We changed that immeditately, but the kitchen was still a dark cave with a very poor layout. Later we added cabinets pulled from a dumpster and at least had a decent amount of space and counter. But we had 5 different brands and styles of cabinet in one room.

The new kitchen will be MUCH better. The door from kitchen to the garage will be moved about 5 feet, fixing the layout problem. The kitchen work area will no longer be the path to the garage, so the cook will not have to dodge the other person passing through. Adding 5 feet of wall to the other side of the kitchen will concentrate the cabinets and counter in the work area, and allow the fridge to be 5 feet closer to the food prep area. A new door opening to the living/ dining room will let natural light into the kitchen, and shorten the walk from stove to dining area by about 20 feet. And lastly,, all the cabinets will be new, and match, and all have doors.

We are going to move a poorly located closet, and replace some crappy doors too. If enough cash is left at the end, we'll finish a bathroom remodel I was half way through. We'd been working gradually on making our house handicap ready. lots of grab bars, changing doors to make wheelchair access possible, etc. Last thing on the list is swapping a tub for a shower. When we need all that handicap stuff, it will be in place. My dad taught me that, when he got back from his broken hip and stroke, we had to scramble to fix his house.

We are using the new appliances already in the rental. It came with a 20 buck microwave, an abysmal stove, and a trailer trash grade fridge. All those are shoved in a corner now, and our huge new fridge, new stove, and microwave are in the rental kitchen. Enjoying those a lot, after a month or two of the crap appliances.

And while I work on the house, It is kind of nice to have a complete set of all new tools. NOT worth it, but nice now that it happened.

If your insurance does not cover full cost replacement on the house and the contents,, fix that NOW. Not that much more on the bill, but worth it. And park vehicles without comprehensive insurance outside. :lol: Bikes inside, underinsured cars out.
 
That's the dogman I always thought you were at least as much as I can from reading forum posts. One who gets back up and continues on.

I can honestly say this has me reviewing my homeowners insurance policy. I set it up years ago and pretty much forgot about it.
 
I relay on CELLLOG HVCut off to disconnect my charger on my 12S A123 20Ah pack.
It never let me down for 576 charging events - celllog always disconnects charger when exactly same A123 cell every time gets to 3.65V.
I dont use any top balancing, it would be useless. After just minute of ride all cells come to exactly same voltage.
 
Sorry to hear this has happened to you Dan. May your recovery be speedy, you will be sorely missed on here!

On a brighter note, stoked to hear your insurers have assisted you in a satisfactory manner. Hopefully life will get back on track sooner than later.
 
DD, thanks for the cautionary tale; already have my batteries in an ammo can, outside. They get charged in the middle of the yard. Glad to see you recovering so well.
 
Dang Dan, Very sorry to hear about the event.

Glad that insurance & etc. is working out OK.
Lead-acid isn't looking all that bad to me all of a sudden.

And motivated right now to put more thought in building a dedicated charging shed with a few hundred pounds of sand above some sort of breakaway ceiling.
 
guys, ..may i remind you of my previous posts (2012) on a safe lipo storage method...
Hillhater said:
All these .. "Beware ..Fire ! " .. type posts recently, have left me with restless nights as my lipo is ( was) stored in the garage under my bedroom !
now i dont for one minute doubt my limited ability to take care of the lipo, but i decided a good nights sleep warranted a little thought.
..So, i "dreamed" up this "Total safety" solution to lipo storage.
A fully automatic storage, detection, and fire control / containment /suppression system, that can be done easily and cheaply by most lipo users.
I have the benefit of a large water storage device ( Swim pool0 that should be capable of containing most runaway lipo events, but what i needed was a system for detecting thermal runaway, and rapidly quenching the problem.
Problem solved by a plastic carry bag, a piece of poly string, and a battery fire alarm !
The bag holds the lipo packs, the string suspends the bag over the pool, and the alarm is atttached to the string ( could be in the bag ?).
If the lipo decides to flame, it will melt the bag, drop into the pool, and set off the alarm ! :shock: :lol: :roll:
( actually, i have such confidence in the functionality of the system , i may eliminate the alarm to enable an undisturbed sleep ! :wink: )
The pool is maybe a little overkill, the Spa, or a bucket of water, or even the bath tub could be used for those in an apartment.
Plenty of room for improvements ( Gucchi bag ?), splash detector ? etc etc...feel free to adapt for yourself ! :wink: :wink: :lol:
lipostore.jpg
 
That's actually a pretty good plan. Water won't put out a lipo fire, but dropping that fire in water is bound to hrelp prevent it from setting the motorcycle full of gas next to it on fire. 8) This is assuming you don't have 2000wh in that pack though. Outside, I'd let it burn before I trashed my swimming pool with a burning lipo pack.

BBQ grill, even in the house, would be one simple way to contain a fire long enough to get out alive. Shoulda been doing something like that in my garage. It does suck that I burned up my car, my tools, etc, but the big deal is that we had time to get out alive. By the time it got dangerous in the house, two smoke alarms there were screeching away. We had the extra time we needed to get the dogs out because we were aware of the fire before those alarms went off.

But lets not forget this fire was not lipo. I do, and continue to treat my lipo like dynamite. It's kept in metal boxes, and those metal boxes were stored in the fireplace. Or, if using the fireplace for fire, they went in an old fridge in the backyard.

My mistake was not trusting lipo. It was trusting Lithium manganese cobalt oxide 18650 pack. The "safe" battery with a bms.

The main lesson I learned was there is no safe battery, and you should keep it farther from shit that can burn so easy, like a pile of nylon coats, and a motorcycle full of gas.
 
Just saw that!

So sorry for your losses, and all the trouble. Crazy badluck, using RC lipo for so long, and burn round cells. I know one who burned Headways twice !!! Yep, batteries are never entirely safe. Should be a lesson to all of us long time ebikers who believe their routine is perfectly safe.
 
LiFePO4 chemistry Headways!............. TWICE!!!!!
Acutal burn smoke + fireworks?

I popped some caps in my a123 26650's but I bought them used and tried to solder was my mistake.

I need to find a proper setup for fireworks proof. Perhaps as heavy as my setup is with the battery pack, a straight up custom metal encasement, with something extra in it to help out. Fireproof expanding foam perhaps. I need to think about that. In addition to everything else thats been said.
 
Remember, these battery fires are self sustaining chemical reactions, not conventional oxygen/air supported fuel fire.
...which means that you can box it in, smother it with foam, sand, water, etc...but you cannot stop it burning !
So you will still have heat, gasses, smoke, etc to deal with.
 
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