Drewjet's Mountain bike w/3220 Astro 5000W Build Thread

[drewjet]

The throttle problem is what im trying to resolve for my bike at the moment like you say its just not controllable enough when pulling away or trying to do slow controlled riding. The twisting of the clamps is something that did on my bike and i overcome this like this...


This is simular power I was putting through my budget freewheel hub and it did eventually brake

I wired in a 3P double throw switch to go from delta to Y. It gives me the best of both worlds. The bike is now controllable at trail speeds, flip the switch and I have a 25 MPH ride home from the trails. It is rated at 35 amps but so far with bursts of about 90 amps it hasn't gotten warm.

I was looking at my setup and came to a similar conclusion, I need to tie into the downtube to prevent rotation. I get a loud clicking noise when I hit around 3000 watts, I think it is from the chain as I get an angle on the front sprocket from it twisting

 

[gwhy!]

I played around with delta/Y on my very first motor but soon dropped the idea as my motor seemed to get far hotter in Y so I didn't really pursue it ( don't really know why this was ). Im looking at just changing the resolution of the throttle on the fly, as Im using a keywin sensored controller I am going to see how the 3 speed setup works on these controllers first before I start thinking about making custom electronics to do it. Your switch should last a fair while ( keep a eye on it ) as long as you dont switch it while excessive high currents are flowing through it this is what burns the contacts and eventually makes a bad contact which then generates heat.

 

[deecanio]

Hi Drew,

i had wondered about the frame clamping as obviously thats where im headed too - did you put any rubber inside the mounts? i know that a sliver of innertube can work wonders in frame clamping so worth a shot if you havent done so already, plan B for slippage on my my clamps will be to drop a solid bar of ally downt the seatube, this would allow serious tightening of the clamps without fear of crushing the seatube and if that doesnt hold for me then i will pin it through the seatube and the bar, should be solid enough imo??
Good news on the eno's, its nice to hear they are holding up just fine, not so good on the sram tho, why do you think its going to give out? any problem so far or just a hunch?
i can hear kim saying i told you so from here, and im a bloody long way from oz
Still, my sram wheel is built now so i wont be far behind in setting up for testing myself so we'll then have a clear incdication between us for what the sram can and cant handle which can only be good for others looking at it.


D

 

[AussieJester]

i can hear kim saying i told you so from here, and im a bloody long way from oz

hehehe...be a LOUD i told you so to my friend...seen the inside of both and
know how long mine lasted. I do have a longer wheel base bike which allows more power to be
applied without getting flipped though, if your "easy" on it maybe...ah...soz Deec, it'll blow
KiM

 

[drewjet]

A few pictures of the beast. Right now I am still in the test everything out and find the weaknesses stage. Once all that is cleared up I intend to make a fairing of sorts to cover up the triangle and all it's electron goodies.


I went for a trail and street run this morning, I went 10 miles and used up 6 amp Hours I saw readings of 3500 on the watt meter, however is showed peak amps of 197. WTF 197 amps times 44 volts = 8600 watt!!! Can that really be true? Is the CA accurate at that high of an amp reading? Motor temp was warm but not hot, ESC was ambient. My Delta Y switch failed on one leg in Y mode Delta still worked fine, so I aborted the more technical trails in favor of my new favorite area about 1 mile from my house where they are widening the road. Lots of sand and dirt mounds. I used to hate how slow road construction is, now I am hoping they never finish it :lol:

 

[drewjet]

Hi Drew,

i had wondered about the frame clamping as obviously thats where im headed too - did you put any rubber inside the mounts? i know that a sliver of innertube can work wonders in frame clamping so worth a shot if you havent done so already, plan B for slippage on my my clamps will be to drop a solid bar of ally downt the seatube, this would allow serious tightening of the clamps without fear of crushing the seatube and if that doesnt hold for me then i will pin it through the seatube and the bar, should be solid enough imo??
Good news on the eno's, its nice to hear they are holding up just fine, not so good on the sram tho, why do you think its going to give out? any problem so far or just a hunch?
i can hear kim saying i told you so from here, and im a bloody long way from oz
Still, my sram wheel is built now so i wont be far behind in setting up for testing myself so we'll then have a clear incdication between us for what the sram can and cant handle which can only be good for others looking at it.


D

I used black electrical tape, I am going to try the inner tube see if it helps, otherwise I will start trying to figure a way to connect into the downtube.

I never even laced my SRAM. It is only a gut feeling, but the massive torque coming off this monster just makes me think that something like that 3 speed hasn't got enough in it to hold up. Of course I am not sure how well the freehub is going to hold out. The White freewheels seem to be the most robust part of the drive train. Also I just don't feel that I need the 3 speeds. I have a top speed of 25 MPH hot off the charger and then holds about 24. Plenty fast for street riding, and I have no plans of using this as a commuter. With 13 MPH on tap it runs well in Y mode.I feel I have good throttle control over the bike and feel pretty comfortable. Though if I get to slow I start peddling.

I think the SRAM would be sweet on a street cruiser as the jackshaft/first stage reduction.

Peddling the bike is a no brainer. Feels like there is no motor at all. Kinda funny to hear the motor freewheel clicking when you are peddling, but it's not really that bad. As of right now I can only use 2 of the front chainrings do to clearance issues between the chains. However I can peddle around 14 MPH and dropping to the middle in the front I get pretty decent torque. I need more riding time to see if I might need to tweak the ratios a bit.

 

[deecanio]

oh well , more reason for me to run mine then, i have the standard wheel ready tho those godsend enos mean i just have to swi
Glad to hear the pedalling side is sweet, is the weight of the chain enough to make the extron freewheel with no roll on?
i wondered about the clicking as you pedal but it should quiet down after some abuse, i mean use, i definitely need my three gears for my use, when/if my sram fails ill choose a gearing that suits "2nd" best.
Can you get the third chainring with a bb extension?

D

 

[amberwolf]

I went 10 miles and used up 6 amp Hours I saw readings of 3500 on the watt meter, however is showed peak amps of 197. WTF 197 amps times 44 volts = 8600 watt!!! Can that really be true? Is the CA accurate at that high of an amp reading?

Dunno about accuracy, but probably. What was the *minimum* voltage? (Vm) Because that is probably the voltage it sagged to during those peak amps, to give you the 3500W.

 

[recumpence]

Wow, quick build, Man!

I am glad to see a clean build running well. I am also glad to see D/Y switching being used. That is a great idea, indeed!

I am also thrilled the belt drive is holding up to the 3220.

As for the power output, I know 3220s are good for 8kw peak (for short bursts). I do not think you have enough voltage drop to see the difference in readings you are getting. However, there is obviously some drop.

The HUGE 197 amp pull is most likely a super short spike, followed by a much more modest amp pull...........

Anyway, Gentlemen, we have another RC convert!

Oh, Man, I just had a thought, I have a couple customers who have ordered twin 3220 drives to be used on mountainbikes. Imagine TWO of these motors on a mountainbike! Hmm, some serious rodeo action I can see coming!

Matt

 

[amberwolf]

Have to make the front tire out of lead.

 

[katou]

Your setup is nearly EXACTLY what I want to do, so I am super excited to hear what you have to say about your experience. Whatever you have to say, let's hear it! I also really appreciate how many pictures you are posting, that is amazingly helpful to me. Keep up the excellent work.

What kind of switch and batteries are you using? I read everything so far, I didn't see those details.

Katou

 

[Burtie]

Hey Drew
Very smart looking build you have there. It is screaming out for you to fit that dual-drive hub. Turn that 25MPH into 30 something and still have enough torque in 1st gear to climb mountains.
If you are worried about the amount of torque you are pumping in to it, you could always gear your primary stage a bit higher and use 1st gear in the hub to keep your overall motor to wheel ratio similar.

I have been using a dual drive in one of my Cyclone setups for about a year now, peak power is only about 2.5kw but I can have it geared pretty low and it copes with some serious torque, no problems.

Gears are great man. They give you the best of both worlds, and more controls to play with, -at the price of a little added complexity


Edit - I forgot to ask: Do you notice significantly greater motor heating when running in delta config as opposed to wye?

Burtie.

 

[mhz128]

Great bike Drewjet!

I, like all ES members, would love to see this beast in action! If you've got a spare moment... please record us a video!!!!


Ciao for now!

 

[deecanio]

yes come on Drewjet, i need to see what my system will be doing too - delta vid pls

D

 

[drewjet]

Sorry for no updates and no videos guys. The only thing I have anaged in the last few days besides working my ass off (over 80 hrs this week) is to replace the 3PdT Delta/Y switch. Took it for a quick spin and once again got thrown off the back, this time with some road rash to prove it. I did order one of the Turnigy $20 video cameras as I don't want to risk my regular camera. I have Monday off, so should try and get something going on then.

I did try the inner tube rubber to stop the twisting, it is better but still twists. I think I will have to make a new lower motor mount and tie it into the downtube.

 

[drewjet]

Allright. I have been busier than a ...

I managed a quick video showing the delta y switch. I couldn't do a great video to show the power of this beast as I was holding onto the camera with one hand, and trying not to throw myself off the back with the other on the throttle. My Turnigy mini cam has shipped, so hopefull I will have it by next week and I can make a helmet cam mount for it.

[youtube]ufNxtZl4Phc[/youtube]

 

[gwhy!]

sweet video/Bike Drew , This is the sort of gearing Im running on my bike ( A tad taller on yours) and I know how light the front wheel can become when accelerating so you done well to hold the cam as well as ride 8) , You just wait till your sensored ( if your going down that route ) It will become even more of a handfull

 

[drewjet]

Work has been nuts, I finally got a day off.

Sorry Burtie missed your question. Yes it does run quite a bit warmer in Delta, however, I am usually running quite a bit faster so that may be part of it. I guess I would need to run at Y speeds in Delta to really make a fair comparison.

My next issue is the mount problem. Because the mount would turn on the seat tube, it would loosen the chain, which would then allow the chain to skip a tooth. It would make a scary clunk noise, scary because it is happening at 5000 Watts between your legs. YIKES. So, I have rough machined a new mount to tie into the downtube. It is only rough machined, and will be cleaned up once it proves itself. I have only taken a few rides on the street, but it seems to be up to the task. Now that I can sustain a few more watts, I am no longer skipping teeth, but am back to having issues with the adapter spinning on the shaft. The adapter is keyed to the gear, so no issues there, but the adapter to the output shaft has only 2 grub screws keeping it from spinning.

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Nice job!

How did you get the cutout on the notched end to match the angle of the tube?

an angled vice with large diameter milling cutter? kind of like a hole saw tubing notcher?

or did you use a hole saw that is the diameter of the tube and angle the drill press table?

 

[GGoodrum]

This is a great build, Drew. I'm glad to see these 3220-based systems finally getting some more testing done. I've been too busy with BMS-related stuff to even ride any of my bikes for months now, but that is going to change soon.

I'm curious on what you used for your D-Y switch, do you have any shots of this? Where did you get the switch? Any idea why the first one failed? A simple switch is still a ton easier than using a big pile of relays.

The one thing about these setups that hasn't been solved yet is the lack of "stealthiness". It's a little hard to sneak up on the Lycra-clad 20-somethings with a setup that sounds like a Singer sewing machine on steroids. :lol: Offroad, though, it doesn't really matter, I guess. Do you get a sense where most of the noise is coming from? The #219 chain/drive sprocket, would be my guess. I'm wondering if a belt drive, like Kim/AJ and Matt P. are using, would make these setups any quieter. Once Kim gets his cruiser back up and running, and maybe does some videos with his camera stapled to his head, we'll see if there's much difference. I think the 3220s b\y themselves are a bit quieter than the big Turnigy outrunners, and that coupled with a belt-drive 1st stage, like you have, might reduce the noise factor.

The motor and 1st stage usually just make a sound like a jet turbine winding up (sounds just like an F101 engine starting up on an F16...), which I think sounds great. Getting rid of, or reducing the 2nd stage racket, is the real challenge.

Anyway, this is great, and I look forward to seeing your progress. I'm also looking forward to seeing how D does with the SRAM DD setup. My gut still says this will be okay, and that in 2nd, where the ratio is 1:1, it shouldn't be any different than a straight hub. Even in 1st, I think it will be okay, because there's too much torque available to keep your ass on the bike, so you have to either start pedaling first, or ease into the power. I think the reason that Kim's unit failed so quickly is that his setup is bigger/heavier, with a long wheelbase, so less prone to throw his "generous" backside off the back end. A lot more of the torque is getting to the wheel.

-- Gary

 

[drewjet]

Nice job!

How did you get the cutout on the notched end to match the angle of the tube?

an angled vice with large diameter milling cutter? kind of like a hole saw tubing notcher?

or did you use a hole saw that is the diameter of the tube and angle the drill press table?

I used a hole saw that was closest to the diamater, mounted it in the Mill at an angle that was as close as I could get it to the downtube angle, the a lot of filing and fitting and filing with a half round file. I have done a few more miles and it seems to be holding up. My Turnigy video cam came in the mail today. Should be able to get some more videos.

 

[drewjet]

Gary, It is just a regular 3P double throw switch. However it is only rated at 15 amps. The first one failed on one leg. This one did the same, but I switched it back and forth a bunch of times and it has started working again. I got them at a local electronics surplus house (Skycraft)for $4.00.

Here is my first video ( well about 15th to get it half way decent) with some off road and delta wye switching from my Turnigy mini cam.

[youtube]-zab1rdL-ds[/youtube]

 

[deecanio]

5:45 - give me delta and some travel

Nice vid Drew, thanks for posting - oh man, i need my ride

D

 

[dbaker]

Nice ride! Love the moss in the trees and all of the palmettos!

And you now have a stable RC drive!

Dave

 

[SilverSurfer]

Awsome awsome awsome! Great build bro! Thanks for sharing the adventure! SS