Dual motor setup with a Kelly KLS motor controller?

[jonpad01]

So I have been using a dual motor setup from Grin using a baserunner V5 on the front and a phaserunner V6 on the back of my Trek bike. I love the extra torque produced by having dual motors but I have a lot of problems with the phaserunner.

It's constantly overcurrent faulting off the line, and I have to go into the suite and lower the current regulator bandwidth kP. I am currently at a setting of 150, which is quite a bit lower than the default of 277 and it makes the rear motor pretty sluggish. It's so sluggish that my front tire on the baserunner peels out, and I currently have the maximum phase amps limited to 50. I want to swap the phaserunner on the rear for something more powerfull like the kelly KLS Cheetah, probably the 300 amp version which is probably enough torque to blow the spokes off my wheel lol. I will probably limit it to something sane like 150 phase amps.

So I'm wondering, is the Kelly KLS controller torque-based like the Grin products? Will I actually get more torque by pairing the Kelly with the baserunner on my front wheel? I know the Grin products will produce their maximum speed at part throttle if the wheel is unloaded, does the Kelly do this too?

 

[amberwolf]

It's constantly overcurrent faulting off the line, and I have to go into the suite and lower the current regulator bandwidth kP. I am currently at a setting of 150, which is quite a bit lower than the default of 277 and it makes the rear motor pretty sluggish. It's so sluggish that my front tire on the baserunner peels out, and I currently have the maximum phase amps limited to 50.

Are the motor parameters all correctly set in the controllers? (inductance, kV, phase resistance, pole count, etc?) If they are not, the controller wont' be correctly driving the phases, and you could get all sorts of errors.

There have been reports of assorted issues with the PR with some setups; I suspect some of it has to do with that, and some with tuning of the feedback loops, and some of it just trouble driving some motors under some conditions, and there is probably some of it that's firmware issues in either the PR or the setup software...but it's hard to say which one is the cause in a particular case until all the stuff you have control over has been eliminated. .

I want to swap the phaserunner on the rear for something more powerfull like the kelly KLS Cheetah, probably the 300 amp version which is probably enough torque to blow the spokes off my wheel lol. I will probably limit it to something sane like 150 phase amps.

What motor are you driving; what phase current is it designed for? If phase current is too high, it just saturates the motor and makes heat out of the excess current.

So I'm wondering, is the Kelly KLS controller torque-based like the Grin products? Will I actually get more torque by pairing the Kelly with the baserunner on my front wheel? I know the Grin products will produce their maximum speed at part throttle if the wheel is unloaded, does the Kelly do this too?

The specs (quoted below) indicate it is an FOC controller (like the *runner series), which means it is capable of torque-control by nature. What settings it has available for user setup of this, you'd have to check its' setup program and manual for.

Cheetah series,light & flexible Motor Controllers (36V-72V) (120A-300A). - Kelly Controls

Cheetah series, light &flexible Controllers, small size for easy installation. To see Trapezoidal version, click here . To see connectors’ detailed dimensions，click here

kellycontroller.com

https://media.kellycontroller.com/new/Kelly-Cheetah-series-KLS-SUserManualV1.13-13.pdf

https://media.kellycontroller.com/new/Kelly-KLS-Configuration-Program.zip

https://media.kellycontroller.com/new/ACAduserEnglish-KLS.zip

Kelly KLS-S Space-saving Sinusoidal Permanent Magnet Motor Controller
Model	Nominal Voltage	Max Operating Voltage	Boost Current 1 Minute	Continuous Current
KLS4812S	36-48V	30-60V	120A	50A
KLS4818S	36-48V	30-60V	200A	80A
KLS4830S	36-48V	30-60V	300A	120A
KLS7212S	48-72V	40-86V	120A	50A
KLS7218S	48-72V	40-86V	200A	80A
KLS7230S	48-72V	40-86V	300A	120A

General functions:
(1)Extended fault detection and protection. The LED flashing pattern indicates the fault sources.Customers can read the error code in PC software or Android Tablet also.
(2)Monitoring battery voltage. It will stop driving if the battery voltage is too high and it will progressively cut back motor drive power as battery voltage drops until it cuts out altogether at the preset “Low Battery Voltage” setting.
(3)Built-in current loop and over current protection.
(4)Configurable motor temperature protection range.
(5)Current cutback at low temperature and high temperature to protect battery and controller. The current begins to ramp down at 90℃ case temperature, shutting down at 100℃.
(6)The controller keeps monitoring battery recharging voltage during regen braking.
(7)Maximum reverse speed and forward speed can be configured between 20% and 100% respectively and separately.
(8)A 4pin connector to RS232 port and a Z-TEK USB to RS232 cable allows for configuration, programming and software upgrades using the tablet which must be based on Android OS now.People can do the same things on PC software by using a standard USB to RS232 cable instead.
(9)Provision of a +5 volt and +12 volt output to supply various kinds of hall sensors.
(10)5 switch inputs which are activated by connection to 12V. Default to throttle switch, brake switch,reversing switch,forward switch and Boost switch.
(11)2 analog 0-5V inputs that default to throttle input, and motor temperature input
(12)Copy signal of one of hall sensors.
(13)Configurable boost switch. Enables the maximum output power achievable if the switch is turned on.
(14) 12V brake switch input used different port from motor temperature sensor.You can use both brake switch and motor temperature sensor functions at the same time on the latest version.Pin 25 is 12V brake switch input port.Pin1 is motor temperature sensor input port.
(15)Optional joystick throttle. A bi-symmetrical 0-5V signal for both forward and reversing.
(16)Configurable motor over-temperature detection and protection with the recommended thermistor KTY84-130 or KTY84-150.
(17)3 hall position sensor inputs. Open collector, pull up provided.
(18) Brake analog regen mode.This regen mode doesn’t need brake switch to support any more.Only available from software version 0106.KLS controller can not support reflashing.
(19)Enhanced regen brake function. A novel ABS technique provides powerful and smooth regen.The regen can happen at any speeds until zero speed.


Features:
1)Intelligence with powerful microprocessor.
2)Synchronous rectification, ultra low drop, fast SVPWM and FOC to achieve very high efficiency.
3)Electronic reversing.
4)Voltage monitoring on 3 motor phases, bus, and power supply.
5)Voltage monitoring on voltage source 12V and 5V.
6)Current sense on all 3 motor phases.
7)Current control loop.
8)Hardware over current protection.
9)Hardware over voltage protection.
10) Configurable limit for motor current and battery current.
11) Low EMC.
12) LED fault code.
13) Battery protection: current cutback, warning and shutdown at configurable high and low battery voltage.
14) Rugged aluminum housing for maximum heat dissipation and harsh environment.
15) Rugged high current terminals, and rugged aviation connectors for small signal.
16) Thermal protection: current cut back, warning and shutdown on high temperature.
17) Configurable 60 degree or 120 degree hall position sensors.Controller can do auto_Identification angle for different degrees of hall sensors.
18) Configurable high pedal protection: the controller will not work if high throttle is detected at power on.
19) Current multiplication: Take less current from battery, output more current to motor.
20) Easy installation: 3-wire potentiometer will work.
21) Standard PC/Laptop computer to do programming.There is one more choice for customers to program KLS controller.Standard Tablet with Android OS to do programming.Need a Z-TEK USB TO RS232 cable for connecting the controller to App program in Tablet.
22) User program provided. Easy to use. No cost to customers.
23) Support motors with any number of poles.
24) Up to 70,000 electric RPM standard. (Electric RPM = mechanical RPM * motor pole pairs;Motor pole pairs=Motor poles/2).


General Specifications:
•Frequency of Operation: 20kHz.
•Standby Battery Current: < 0.5mA.
•5V or 12V Sensor Supply Current: 40mA.
•Configurable battery voltage range, B+.
•Standard Throttle Input: 0-5 Volts(3-wire resistive pot), 1-4 Volts(hall active throttle).
•Throttle Input: 0-5 Volts. Can use 3-wire pot to produce 0-5V signal.
•Main Contactor Coil Driver<2A.
•Full Power Operating Temperature Range: 0℃ to 70℃(MOSFET temperature).
•Operating Temperature Range: -40℃ to 100℃ (MOSFET temperature).
•Max Battery Current: Configurable.

 

[jonpad01]

Hi amberwolf, thank you for the helpful links. I have a pair of front and rear ezee geared hub motors bought from ebikes.ca about 6 months ago, I'm not sure how many amps those motors are rated for.

I have the pole pairs set to 80 and did run the autotune process for the phaserunner, then applied the default values from the phaserunner suite. From there its been a lot of tweaking, my biggest problem is phase over current faults when the bike tries to start from a stop.

This particular controller had a problem where it wasn't calibrated correctly by ASI, something about the gains being set incorrectly, Grin reached out to me via email and sent me a program that ASI had to build so I could recalibrate it. I ran the tool and recalibrated my controller, and now it throws bad calibration faults, which doesn't seem to do much because it still works even with the fault triggered.

Both before and after this process I've always had problems with phase overcurrent faults when I try to start the bike from a stop, it's worse if I try to start on a hill. This particular fault sucks because I have to turn it off and back on again, and it always happens when Im trying to cross a busy intersection. The only tuning that seems to make any difference is the current regulator Kp.

At one point the clutch on my rear motor locked up, I could feel the motor drag while spinning the wheel both forward and backward, but it managed to unlock itself and now it freewheels spinning forward again.

The specs (quoted below) indicate it is an FOC controller (like the *runner series), which means it is capable of torque-control by nature. What settings it has available for user setup of this, you'd have to check its' setup program and manual for.

One thing I did try to do was download and open the program for the Kelly controller, but it just gave me a message saying it couldn't find any connected devices. I ended up buying it, a new toy to try out haha.

 

[jonpad01]

EDITED:

An update. The answer is no, the Kelly KLS motor controllers are not torque based controllers. When throttle is applied, the controller appears to map that throttle input to a desired wheel speed and not a desired torque. There does not seem to be an option to change this. I read the Kelly faq page and it seems the KLS is the only series that doesnt offer a torque/current control mode, doh!

I can make the assumption that it increases/decreases its torque output to achieve the desired wheel speed. This is slightly unfortunate, but I think it still works for my dual motor setup.

Since my baserunner on my front wheel is a torque based controller, it is simply adding its torque into the system. My kelly controller on the rear wheel is dictating the speed (unless the desired speed is greater than it can produce) and my baserunner is adding torque, which effectively reduces the amount of torque the kelly controller has to output to achieve its desired wheel speed.

This could become a problem if my front motor is producing enough torque to move the bike at a speed greater than what my rear motor is trying to spin at. It might take some tuning to get right and changing the rider weight might mess it up again.