Ebiker vs Cyclist comparison !

[Ypedal]

Last week i had the chance to head out for a long'ish ride with a local friend cyclist.

Most of my non bicycle riding friends are the typical " Got Beer.. Will Ride " types, jeans and tshirt wearing 10km with assist max .. you know the type ! :wink:
...

However..

Mr.Cyclist:


BMC Roadracer SL01-105
Rider Weight : 136 Lbs
Bike Weight : 18 Lbs !!!! ( no, that's not a typo ... )


Ebiker ( Mr.Y ) :
eZee Rear Hub Kit
48v 10ah Grin Tech Li Pack
CA v.3
Thun Torque Sensing BB


Norco Storm 29'er
Rider Weight : 185 Lbs
Bike Weight : 72 Lbs ( loaded with 15 Lbs saddle bag, Beer, SLR camera )

Mr.C was training for an event and was looking for a good workout, i told him to take lead and set whatever pace he was comfortable with and i'd keep up :wink:

So we took off for a 50 km ride.. had a bit of range anxiety going on so i packed the Cycle Satiator just in case, set for 6 amps..

Average speeds ranged from 25 to 30 kph, peaked 47 kph !

I can honestly say i never touched the throttle, staying on the cranks with the Thun BB doing all the assist work.

Hats off to Mr.C i have to admit, he ain't no chump, the headwinds were strong and the valleys were providing some challenge ! .. I had to push myself harder than usual to keep up averaging 100 to 200 watts of human power along with 200 to 400w of motor power..

Was a great experience, these longer rides give you time to really analyze things and learn .. i found on the flats i settled on 70 rpm at the cranks ( i don't like to spin fast.. bad knees ) and when the uphill sections came i could simple shift into a lower gear to stay behind Mr.C without over running him.

Total trip was 50 km on the CA .. 55 Km on GPS phone logger ( Mr.C ran around my house a few times to finish off the 55 km on his phone log lol )

Time Lapst of the ride:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fl565wkHjM

[youtube]_Fl565wkHjM[/youtube]

Now i'm certainly no " Athlete " by any strech ( and the beer stops in the vid above prove how serious of a rider i am ! lol ) but i do pedal a fair bit and this season i've been cranking more than ever before.. i'm sure i could manage a 50 km trip on a regular bicycle but it would have taken a whole lot longer.. and average speeds would have been low 20's !!.. or less... :lol:

CA says i put in 210 Wh Human input.... and used 430 wh of Battery ! .. and that was just to " keep up "

I did pump 2.5ah back into the pack at one stop ( found a plug.. !! while having a brew ) and total 8ah = 50 Km

 

[MadRhino]

50km is a lot of crank work, and keeping the 30 Kmh pace with the wind is heart work. Your fellow cyclist is well trained: wink:

For your ebike, well you did the ride very economically. I did a 45 Km ride recently, and used a lot more battery than you, even if I had the feeling to ride on economy.

 

[The fingers]

I think this is a really funny thread. :lol: Especially at the end of the ride going in circles to keep up with a phone mileage log. Now that's dedication! 8)

 

[ScooterMan101]

I did the same test, just under 2 weeks ago.

There are a group of riders that go off on a 40-60 + minute ride , around here where I live.
They age from early 20's to mid 50's . They ride bikes that are Carbon Fiber, and cost more, Retail, than my car and motorcycle together are worth. most of the bikes are under 20 lbs, mostly under 18 lbs and are very aero. and those riders are very Fit.

My e-bike weigh's in at 51 lbs. before the Rack/bottle cage/ etc. but mostly 54 lbs . loaded up. it has 27.5/650b wheels, 54mm wide tires. so I am just about the same Outer Diameter Wheel size as them since they run mostly 700 x 23 or 700x 25 tires.

about 2 miles / 3.5 km's into the ride the first of them slowed down to his pace.
after falling back and asking him if he wanted to draft me to catch up he said he would ride on his own. I sped up to the others. in a valley that was flat I was showing that I was pulling 350 watts +/- 50-75 watts just to keep on the back at 29-30 Kph. / ( 17-18 mph ) .
A few more of them dropped back, I speed up , another dropped back on the small climb up to a reservoir , I caught up to the leading group and saw about the same wattage pull just to stay on the back of the group, Apx 350 watts at 30 Kph/ 18mph.
then
up another hill, on the way down that hill I could not keep up them, my fat/heavy touring tires at 65psi, and very, and I mean very, Un-Aero profile of the mountain bike and me, just could not keep up. I tried getting on the throttle, but at 50kph down hill the Cycle Analyst just would not engage the motor at that speed .

If anyone knows how to over ride/ adjust the C.A. so that I can go faster , please PM me, as well as seeing how much wattage I am putting in.

Then after a flat section of a few miles all but 1 of that leading group decided to go up the same hill on a different road. at this point I just went back into town, as I am still wanting to baby my battery pack, since it is only rated at 2c and I have the C.A. adjusted to pull 19 amps max from the 48volt pack,
So that gives you an Idea how efficient their bikes are , and how physically fit those lead riders are !

 

[Ypedal]

I think this is a really funny thread. :lol: Especially at the end of the ride going in circles to keep up with a phone mileage log. Now that's dedication! 8)

No kidding !!!..

He completed a 100 km yesterday at a local Velo NB event.. no way my ass could handle that, assited or not lol.

 

[Ypedal]

For human watt data you need the CA V.3 and a torque sensing crank ( the Thun in my case ) 8)

The Storm has really tall gearing and the eZee at 48v in a 700C rim and 29'er tire does no-load 55 kph on a hot charge... about 10 km from home i tried a short sprint and i could maintain 47 kph ( slight down hill, wind at my back )

 

[ScooterMan101]

I have the CA V 2.3 not the V 3. and no torque sensing crank, that kind of crank is out of my budget .

I am showing on My CA/Bike set-up a 38 Kph max speed on flat ground, with little to no wind.

Is it my batteries ( 48volt, 11 amp hour , 2c LiFepo4 generic Chinese pack ) ?

I am wondering what to get next , in regards to batteries .

Is there a youtube video on how to do advance settings on the CA 2.3 , to allow faster speeds ?

Thanks

For human watt data you need the CA V.3 and a torque sensing crank ( the Thun in my case ) 8)

The Storm has really tall gearing and the eZee at 48v in a 700C rim and 29'er tire does no-load 55 kph on a hot charge... about 10 km from home i tried a short sprint and i could maintain 47 kph ( slight down hill, wind at my back )

 

[Ypedal]

The CA can reduce power and/or speed by tapping into the throttle line... but it cannot increase power/speed over the motor controller and battery's existing limits.

Top speed is a function of motor type, winding, tire OD. and battery voltage, higher voltage = more rpm .. lifepo4 16 cell ( typical 48v equivalent ) will have slightly lower operating voltage than other lithium types but not by very much.

 

[ScooterMan101]

My Controller , I am told, and it looks like the same picture , is the Infineon 12 fet controller 36/48 volt. so I think it can process a good amount of amps, although I am not sure how many amps ?

The batteries however are generic/low grade Chinese 2c batteries , that is why I have my CA set to limit the amps to 19.
I am starting to do research on what kind of battery pack to build/buy next since I want to take the mac up to higher speeds, and up steeper hills.There is a 3 mile hill I want to take it up. Rodies ride up the hill, but I can only ride it at 3 - 4 mph with my legs/non motorized bike, with many rest stops along the way up.
The Mac motor does ok now going up hills limited to 19 amps with me pedaling , although the CA shows max amps into the mid 20's , I do not ever see that when looking down at the CA however so not sure where that 23-27 max amp number comes from, when I scroll through the numbers at the end of a ride.

The CA can reduce power and/or speed by tapping into the throttle line... but it cannot increase power/speed over the motor controller and battery's existing limits.

Top speed is a function of motor type, winding, tire OD. and battery voltage, higher voltage = more rpm .. lifepo4 16 cell ( typical 48v equivalent ) will have slightly lower operating voltage than other lithium types but not by very much.

 

[Ypedal]

Limiting amps will reduce acceleration, but it will not lower top speed ( generally ) .. top speed is all about voltage.

the peak momentary power will always over-shoot a micro-second before the CA kicks in a limit and this is why you see a higher number than your pre-set limit.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Yea that was my guess about the peak amps reading, as I had tried to duplicate it many times , but could not see that high amount of current on the CA, even going up a hill full throttle.

About speed, I have often wondered , since I am starting my research on batteries and still do not know enough about them , should I /could I make a 58-60 volt pack , depending of course on what battery voltage each cell has , the amount of cells ,and what its full charge voltage would be,
And where would I get a charger for such voltage ? ... for instance If I went with hobbyking packs it is hard to find a charger that charges more than a 6s pack.
I am finding a lack of 7s packs on hobbyking, or even 7s chargers.
( so far as referred to me, by another member of E.S. here, the 12-16 amp packs are a better way to go, but I am not finding them in 7s lipo packs in the multistar packs, so I now need to research the different 18650 cells more and how to make them into a pack, and where to get a 3 amp AC charger or more amp charger for them )

Limiting amps will reduce acceleration, but it will not lower top speed ( generally ) .. top speed is all about voltage.

the peak momentary power will always over-shoot a micro-second before the CA kicks in a limit and this is why you see a higher number than your pre-set limit.

 

[Raged]

My Controller , I am told, and it looks like the same picture , is the Infineon 12 fet controller 36/48 volt. so I think it can process a good amount of amps, although I am not sure how many amps ?

The batteries however are generic/low grade Chinese 2c batteries , that is why I have my CA set to limit the amps to 19.
I am starting to do research on what kind of battery pack to build/buy next since I want to take the mac up to higher speeds, and up steeper hills.There is a 3 mile hill I want to take it up. Rodies ride up the hill, but I can only ride it at 3 - 4 mph with my legs/non motorized bike, with many rest stops along the way up.
The Mac motor does ok now going up hills limited to 19 amps with me pedaling , although the CA shows max amps into the mid 20's , I do not ever see that when looking down at the CA however so not sure where that 23-27 max amp number comes from, when I scroll through the numbers at the end of a ride.

The CA can reduce power and/or speed by tapping into the throttle line... but it cannot increase power/speed over the motor controller and battery's existing limits.

Top speed is a function of motor type, winding, tire OD. and battery voltage, higher voltage = more rpm .. lifepo4 16 cell ( typical 48v equivalent ) will have slightly lower operating voltage than other lithium types but not by very much.

How many turns is your MAC motor? I ran my old MAC10T with the Infineon 12FET at 40A and easily cruised to 50km/h even on inclines. It's a beast of a motor and controller if you have the battery to pump it up. (I use 14S Zippy Compact lipo - 58.8V fully charged).

 

[ScooterMan101]

Raged,

I have a 6T Mac motor, I have it on a 650b rim with 650 x 54 mm wide tires.
I have the 2.3 CA.
But
I was new to all this, and still am. So I just bought what batteries were available from the vendor.
So what I got , was weak 2c 48 volt / 11 amp hour Lifepo4 generic Chinese battery pack. ( note the 2c rating )

I am still on the fence about lipo's or to build up a 18650 pack.

The lipo's I like the price of most is the multistar packs. However if there are 7s lipo Zippy packs at large 10 or 12 or 16 amp hour packs like the multistar packs I would consider them that way I would have 2 packs to wire together instead of 4 packs .
However , I did not see any small / high wattage/ inexpensive , chargers for 7s packs. I have seen chargers at a local RC Airplane field, but they were very big and expensive. and still needed a power converter to allow them to charge using AC.
The Main reason I would use Hobby Lipo's is so that I could charge , away from home so therefore I need a small light weight charger I can carry with me, yet still charge at 250 or more watts.



" How many turns is your MAC motor? I ran my old MAC10T with the Infineon 12FET at 40A and easily cruised to 50km/h even on inclines. It's a beast of a motor and controller if you have the battery to pump it up. (I use 14S Zippy Compact lipo - 58.8V fully charged).


Focus Black Forest 29er - MAC10T 14S Lipo - 50km/h, 50km range. (dead)http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?uid=35623&f=3&t=58691&start=0
Cube Reaction 29er Cyclocross BBS02 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=70549
Raged
Location: Melbourne, Australia

 

[Raged]

If thats the case... what is your 3 speed switch set at? A MAC6T should ramp up to 50km/h ok (albeit a bit slower). I believe the 3speed switch limits speed as well, which might be why your top speed is lower.

The multistars are just normal lipo's in 2P to get the higher capacity. eg. paralleled in 1 package instead of paralleling individually. I use a 14S charger from em3ev (5A one) that is relatively small.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Raged,

I just did some test runs, the figures are in Km's ... so that anyone using MPH knows to divide by 1.7 to get MPH.

When converting the bike, I had to turn the throttle to the front 180 degrees , because the throttle housing where the 3 way switch and green button is was not working with my shifters. So I had pretty much forgotten about the switch, I had it on the first setting ( left if it was facing me ) because of this I also forgot about the green button until a couple of weeks ago. Last two rides , not including speed test runs today I used the Green button ( cruse control ) and love that feature !
anyway.

I started out with 54.1 volts , and I have the CA 2.3 set to limit the amperage draw from the battery at 19 amps.

Run :
1) 1/2 Km long, top speed 38.6 Kph, on switch position 1, the left

2) 3/4 Km long run, top speed 37.4 Kph, switch position 1

3) 3/4 Km long run, top speed 43.8 Kph, switch position 2 , the middle

4) .8 Km long run, top speed 43.4 Kph , switch position 3 the right

5) 1.1 Km long run, top speed 45.6 Kph, switch position 3

6) 1 Km long run, top speed 43.0 Kph, switch position 3

Total Wh/Km used 23.4
Total Amp hours used 2.35
Watt hours used 116

On postition 2 and 3 on the red switch, the motor shuttered, I did get on the throttle, so I am guessing that the CA kept switching on and off the controller as to not exceed amp draw from batteries

And Yes it did take allot of distance to get up to speed. Guessing because it is a 6T Mac, instead of the 10T .

If thats the case... what is your 3 speed switch set at? A MAC6T should ramp up to 50km/h ok (albeit a bit slower). I believe the 3speed switch limits speed as well, which might be why your top speed is lower.

The multistars are just normal lipo's in 2P to get the higher capacity. eg. paralleled in 1 package instead of paralleling individually. I use a 14S charger from em3ev (5A one) that is relatively small.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Ypedal,

I will see if I can do some more testing , that is riding with a group sometime this week or next again to get you some more figures to see what it takes to keep up with the fit road riders. That will be a different test from today , I will try to use as little amp's from the battery as possible , as well as total wattage hours.
You look to have a more efficient bike than mine for the street. with the thinner tires, a little more aero as well.

 

[Raged]

Yeah it looks like the combination of current limiting and possible battery sag (vdrop) on the juice is restricting you. As the current requirements are higher the faster you go (wind resistance) the battery cant keep up and probably dropping the voltage down at max current.

If you want an easy plug and play solution, get a built kit from 18650's or two lipo's ( an 8S and a 6S in series for 14S - as long as they are same mAh you can series and run them safely). See if you can borrow someone's lipo pack to do some tests.