Efficiency is where it's at

Speedfreke

100 W
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
104
I've just been browsing thru ES and came to the conclusion that (at least for me) an EFFICIENT ebike is the way to go.
To me efficiency means the longest battery life with the smallest battery , for the desired speed and distance of a typical trip, paired with the right controller. Unfortunately, I'm less tecnically minded than a Bonobo chimp and need help.
My question: what is the most efficient set-up (battery size and controller) for my 408 C'lyte on 26" mtn bike, no hills ? My requirements are:
speed - avg 32mph
distance - avg 20 miles
 
For the speed specified, a faired recumbent would give the best eneregy efficiency,

Controllers are all pretty efficient when compared to motors.

you will also need some voltage. 72v?

But AVERAGE 32mph? Faired recumbemt.

I wonder, are you talking power, energy or financial efficiency?

d
 
I defined efficiency as the smallest battery that would get me 24 miles at 32mph. I'm thinking now probably a 72v lipo for the speed but not sure of rated amp/hr for the distance
 
+1 on the faired recumbent though I've never ridden one nor even entertained the idea. . . But, for efficiency they rule for watts per mph, with everything else being equal.

A pedal-first controller would save you some battery life.
Do you plan to pedal? That can boost your range to near infinite though you'll be struggling for speed.
If so, gear the bike so that you're always able to contribute something above your target speed. IOW, don't gear too low.

It's funny that you specify 32 mph when the speed limit for ebikes in many jurisdictions around the world is 32 kmh (20 mph).
 
Speedfreke said:
I defined efficiency as the smallest battery that would get me 24 miles at 32mph. I'm thinking now probably a 72v lipo for the speed but not sure of rated amp/hr for the distance

I think 15S-2p lipo would get you where you want. Thats about 60 volts and 10 a/h, especially if you could top up your battery at work.

I always carry a small charger in my panniers with my 10 a/h batteries for when i get carried away and go a further distance, just plug in while having a long coffee and good to go for another 1/2 hour riding.

As opposed to carrying 15a/h of batteries and never using the extra 5a/h 90% of the time. But 15a/h is safer for the batteries, and they'd last a bit longer, and get bit more poop when you turn the throttle. Okay, i change my my mind, 15a/hr is better :)

Just make sure you monitor your pack with a Cycle Analyst or other monitors that are on the market which are also nice.
 
you mention a 60v 10a/h battery but I haven't seen this at Ping battery. So if I get 72v 10a/h then it should do the 24 mile trip easy?
As for Zoot's comment 'funny'. yes but I need a commuter vehicle and over 32 mph is neccessary. I have a 'sunday ride' bike, a work-out bike, and my old 408 SLA bike which I will be upgrading.
 
Speedfreke said:
As for Zoot's comment 'funny'. yes but I need a commuter vehicle and over 32 mph is neccessary.

Best-guess values in the power/speed calculator at http://www.analyticcycling.com indicate you'll need about a steady 800W at the wheel to maintain a steady 32mph on the flat. You're talking about 3/4 of an hour at that speed, with offsets for hills/stop 'n go/higher median speed, your own contribution at the pedals, and system efficiency at load-- if you need 800W continuous, you'll not be running in the high-efficiency portion of the X408's envelope. Then you have to take into account the DOD that will give you passable battery life. I think you'll need better than a kWh of battery power, maybe quite a bit more.

I also think your performance requirements suggest a light motorcycle or derestricted moped rather than an e-bike. By the time you meet your specs, your e-bike will likely weigh as much as a moped, cost more, and have lower reliability.

A Stokemonkey setup would be more plausible than a direct drive hub motor, but you'd have to juice it with a more powerful controller without speed restriction. The implied Xtracycle in that arrangement would give you a good place to mount piles of batteries and would make the bike more stable at high speeds.

Chalo
 
Efficient 32 mph bike. :wink:
 
dogman said:
Efficient 32 mph bike. :wink:

Even better, he suggests an efficient 32mph average speed bike powered by an X408 hub.

Chalo
 
Heck some days I ave less than 32 on the freeway commute.. :)

Yea what they said, mopeds are cool. Maybe a faired moped would meet your goals. That would be cool. May not be at all what you had in mind though!
 
I just ran my numbers through Justin's revamped simulator.
9C, 2806, 26" wheel, 35A controller, 48V (15s), 10Ah, LiFePo4:
It looks like its efficiency curve peaks ~850 Watts and 32.5 MPH before it drops like a rock at 35 MPH.
 
Zoot Katz said:
I just ran my numbers through Justin's revamped simulator.
9C, 2806, 26" wheel, 35A controller, 48V (15s), 10Ah, LiFePo4:
It looks like its efficiency curve peaks ~850 Watts and 32.5 MPH before it drops like a rock at 35 MPH.

I ran some simulations assuming he keeps the X408. It looks like 72V would probably be good for 33-34mph on the flat even without pedaling, but a little higher voltage, say 84V, would make it easier to meet the speed criterion.

I was unable to offer Speedfreke any insights as to whether the X408 definitely would or would not behave itself while trying to reject a continuous 200W of heat into a 35mph airstream. Anybody here have relevant experience?

Chalo
 
Chalo said:
Zoot Katz said:
I was unable to offer Speedfreke any insights as to whether the X408 definitely would or would not behave itself while trying to reject a continuous 200W of heat into a 35mph airstream. Anybody here have relevant experience?

In practice, it will do it for me, but I've never tried to calculate the thermal transfer of the motor's surface area to the air. At a wild guess you have atleast 1 sq foot of surface area to transfer 200 watts of heat in an average wind of 20mph+. Sounds like it ought to handle it.

Efficancy isn't about the batteries. its about the rest of the bike. A recumbant with a fairing is twice as efficent as a conventional Bike.
then the componants start to matter. better freewheels, bearings, hubs. Better, highpressure tires. Ridgid wheels, Aero spokes.
Then the controller starts to matter. 4110 fets, impovements to the voltage devidor. Thicker wiring with less resistance.
And then the motor. A 9C is 5% more efficent
 
I agree, efficiency is all about coeficient of drag. With all the crap I bolted to my commuter, tall handlebars, panniers, coat flapping, etc. The only way I see efficient is to go slow. But who cares when you have a BIG OL BATTERY. :mrgreen: Heck, my 20 ah ping only weighs 15 pounds, carrying two would be no sweat if 25 miles of range was too short.
 
Speedfreke said:
I've just been browsing thru ES and came to the conclusion that (at least for me) an EFFICIENT ebike is the way to go.
To me efficiency means the longest battery life with the smallest battery , for the desired speed and distance of a typical trip, paired with the right controller. Unfortunately, I'm less tecnically minded than a Bonobo chimp and need help.
My question: what is the most efficient set-up (battery size and controller) for my 408 C'lyte on 26" mtn bike, no hills ? My requirements are:
speed - avg 32mph
distance - avg 20 miles

A Clyte 408 in a 26" should give you a 32 mph TOP speed under good conditions with a fully charged 20s lipo pack. But realize that poor conditions, ie rough roads, head winds, cold weather will all cost you speed and range. Battery voltage drops off as they discharge and your speed does to. Depending on how deep you push the discharge, your top speed will be 15% to 20% lower at the end. You could go to a little higher voltage pack, but you will likely be operating the Clyte out of its best efficiency range and you will be increasing your odds of frying something. I wouldn't go over 24s and even at that your odds of something failing are getting pretty high.

As your batteries age, the voltage falls off more rapidly. If you use a small pack and push them hard they will age rapidly. If your average trip will be 20 miles you'll want a battery capable of at least 30 miles to handle longer trips and bad conditions. And a 40 mile initial capacity is better because after 2 or 3 years and your capacity has fallen off by a third you'll still be able to get by.

All of which is to say that your initial parameters will spell disappointment. You either need to scale back your expectations to say a 32 mph TOP speed but say low to mid 20s average speed. Or you need to start with different components.

As others have pointed out, if you want efficiency you need aero efficiency, ie a different bike. SOME recumbents and SOME fairings are much more efficient. In general, lower, smaller & tighter will be faster. You can't strap a barn door on the front of a tall recumbent to go fast. And the rear is as important as the front. Efficient aerodynamics means you achieve a smooth laminar flow of air that leaves minimal wake turbulence. A sleek nose and fat tail won't cut it.

But if a different bike isn't an option, to get what you want you need more power. An Clyte 5 series motor might get you there. But you'll need a good controller and a lot of battery.
 
Drunkskunk said:
Efficancy isn't about the batteries. its about the rest of the bike. A recumbant with a fairing is twice as efficent as a conventional Bike.
And this man knows that all too well. His top speed is 82+ MPH, and he managed to cover 90 km (56.2 miles) in one hour... on HUMAN POWER ALONE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMUNOLwW0io
 
thank you for the excellent insights all. I think it's beginning to sink in. But what I don't understand is why I can get 30+ mph on my x408 with inefficient 72v 12ahr SLA's? Yes the range sucks - only 12mi. but the speed is close to what I need.
If Mattdog is right: "it could be the batteries" - what size 36v pings in series to make 72v?
In other words - what size pings is equivalent to my 72v sla's so I can get the next size up to get the range and speed I need?
 
72 volts is 72 volts. It doesn't matter what the source of the voltage is the end result will be the same. However, if the voltage sags a lot at cruising speed with your current batteries then you might have more volts and thus a little more speed with new ones. But the big advantage of lithium over lead is much less weight for the same amount of capacity. Or much more capacity for the same weight...
 
There are so many variables here that to get something meaningful out they really need to be trimmed down a bit by making some assumptions.

First off, aerodynamic drag is far and away the biggest factor, but let's assume that you want to carry on using the same bike as you already have.

The next biggest power absorption factor will be hill climbing and acceleration, in which total weight (bike and rider) is the dominant factor. Anything that reduces weight will reduce power required, but the effect is modest. If you weigh 80kg (176lbs) and the bike weighs 20kg (44lbs), then knocking 5kg (11lbs) off the bike weight only makes about 5% reduction on hill climbing and acceleration power.

Rolling resistance is proportional to weight as well, but will only vary slightly so can be assumed to be pretty much the same for whatever motor/controller/battery you choose to use.

The above stuff is hard to change easily, apart from reducing weight, which is a good thing but won't make a dramatic difference on it's own.

As has already been mentioned, controller efficiency is high and won't vary much between brands or types.

Battery efficiency, in terms of weight per unit energy, is easily optimised. LiPo is top of the tree, LiFePO4 is next, followed by NiMH then lead acid at the bottom.

The biggest single factor that you can change for greater efficiency, assuming the same bike and rider, will be the motor set up. Hub motors will never give best efficiency, because they will often be working at an rpm and load that takes them well away from the peak efficiency part of their operating curve. Depending on the nature of your average journey, this could have a major impact. Running a hub motor relatively slowly, during acceleration or hill climbing, will drop the efficiency right down, it will only run close to peak when run at around 80 to 90% of it's maximum speed (see Justin's simulator graphs on www.ebike.ca for an illustration of this).

If your average journey involves running at speeds below this efficient band for long, or has a few hills to climb or stops and starts, then overall efficiency would be improved by running the motor through the gears. This would allow the motor to run at closer to it's most efficient RPM range for more of the time. The net benefit from this would probably be greater than the slightly greater loss from running through the bike drive chain.

Going for an efficient motor is the next thing to look for. Many are only around 75 to 80% efficient, for example. If you can increase motor average efficiency (by careful choice) from, say, 80% to 85% you will gain a significant benefit. The reduction in lost electrical power would be about 25%, a worthwhile gain, plus the motor will run cooler, giving a further gain. A cool motor will be more efficient than a hot motor, as internal resistance increases with temperature.

I suspect that a good quality RC motor, driving the bike through a decent drive chain with gears, might well be the most efficient system currently available for the sort of power you might need. LiPo batteries would give the best efficiency in terms of being the lightest for the energy. Battery voltage with such a set up would depend entirely on your choice of motor and gear ratio, but might not need to be above about 40 to 50V for the sort of power you need. There are others here with more experience than I of this type of system.

If you really must have a hub motor, then I'd take a look at some of the geared types if your journey includes stops, starts and hills. They will probably be a bit more efficient, as, if all else is equal, spinning a motor fast tends to be better than spinning one slowly. You get more power from increasing motor rpm, with only a small increase in losses.

Jeremy
 
Remind us which 72v controller you have your eye on.

Two 36v 15 ah pings would make a big enough 72v pack to run a 20 amp controller. Pings are said to be 2c batteries, but I recomend an average c rate for the whole ride of 1c-1.5c max. My great results with my 1c cells in my v1 ping were using average c rates less than 1c.

If you up the ante to a 72v 50 amp controller, you'd need two 36v 30 ah pings to make the pack. At that point, unless you want a 36v 60 ah pack at times, a ping would be stupid. A 72v 10 ah headway pack would run that controller in theory, but a 35 amp controller would be a better choice.

Range at top speed is something you'll have to report to us, I'd be guesstimating. But range won't be a problem running 72v 50 amp controller on the 408. Choosing your new motor will be the question. You won't go that far unless it's really cold out.

To get closer to what you want, a good setup might be a 5 winding 9 continent motor, 20 amp controller, and a 48v 20 ah ping. It won't be as fast as your dreams, but it will be as efficient as fast is going to get. Ride in a good tuck, and pedal briskly. Use the throttle gradually, so you are always pulling a bit faster than the motor with the pedals. You will need a big front sprocket to keep up the pedaling at speed. By keeping pressure on the pedals through the entire acceleration, you will achieve the same effect as running the motor itelf through the gears. The idea is to always keep the motor in the band where it pullls less watts. How you pedal and use the throttle has a dramatic effect on efficiency. Slowing down, of course, or cutting wind resistance, is where real efficiency is to be had.
 
Jeremy Harris said:
First off, aerodynamic drag is far and away the biggest factor, but let's assume that you want to carry on using the same bike as you already have.
...
The next biggest power absorption factor will be hill climbing and acceleration
...
The biggest single factor that you can change for greater efficiency, assuming the same bike and rider, will be the motor set up. Hub motors will never give best efficiency, because they will often be working at an rpm and load that takes them well away from the peak efficiency part of their operating curve. Depending on the nature of your average journey, this could have a major impact. Running a hub motor
...
Jeremy

Aerodynamic drag only becomes the biggest factor at speed. Below 10 mph it's fairly insignificant. At 20 mph modest gains can be had going aero. But at 30+ mph which the original poster wants to do, you are 100% right. Aero efficiency is by far the dominant factor. Unfortunately it is challenging to do well and there aren't many off the shelf soultions for good aero. And those are going to involve serious tradeoffs in areas of cost, ride comfort and streetability.

As for direct drive hub motors, it's actually quite challenging to beat them for efficiency if the system is well selected and matched to typical usage. Their bad efficiency rap comes from the fact that most people are running setups that weren't designed for good efficiency. Solar race cars almost all run direct drive hub motors. They do so because they can be extremely efficient. And don't discount improved efficiency from good controller design. While controllers themselves typically don't dissipate all that much heat, a better controller can operate a motor over a wider speed range and power range with less losses in the motor too.
 
SpeedEBikes said:
Solar race cars almost all run direct drive hub motors. They do so because they can be extremely efficient.
Under optimized conditions and near continuous speeds. Most ebikes are used in widely varying conditions with numerous stops and starts, hills, loads, etc.

In the OP's case (of few hills), rider input can be very influential on range: pedal-input for starts, hub-assist for cruising in a tuck or on drop-bars.

12mi range on Pb indicates a high likelyhood of an easy 15mi on Li.
 
I agree that, in still air, aerodynamic drag isn't that great at low speeds, it's proportional to the square of air speed (which means power to overcome it increases in proportion to the cube of air speed).

However, we rarely ride in still air, probably 50% of the time we have some head-wind component adding to aerodynamic drag, even when stationary.

I also agree that it's hard to tackle well, as full fairings tend to be awkward to use and add ventilation and, perhaps more importantly, stability problems. It's difficult to get a good low-drag shape without moving the lateral C of P away from the lateral C of G, which creates cross-wind gust induced yaw, which isn't pleasant.

I agree wholeheartedly with Tyler Durden on the issue of hub motor efficiency. They are good over a limited range of operating conditions, but poorer when run off-optimum, just like any other other motor. Being able to run a motor at closer to it's best operating point over a range of load conditions will give better efficiency (in terms of power drawn from the battery for any given load), which is why running through a variable ratio transmission offers some advantages.

Jeremy
 
SpeedEBikes said:
As for direct drive hub motors, it's actually quite challenging to beat them for efficiency if the system is well selected and matched to typical usage.

The problem is, is that almost all direct drive hub motors are not efficient if you're running modest power levels(Say, upto 1.25 kW or so) going up a hill WHILE retaining the ability to go 25+ mph. Inevitably, the motor will slow down and get into its inefficient range.

Now, if you're running at high power levels to sustain efficient motor speeds up a hill, then you're good. The problem is - the smaller hub motors don't typically sustain those kinds of power usage well. You kind of have to have something like a c'lyte 530x, and that incurs two relatively distinct disadvantages. 1) Cost and 2) Weight, which adds its own hit to "efficiency"(wh/mi.) when climbing the aforementioned hills.

Now I've heard 9C are a bit better than what I've experienced with c'lyte 40x, so how inefficient those get at modest power levels would have to be evaluated. I'm willing to bet, though, they're under 70% efficiency at 1 kW input (let's keep it legal) while climbing an 8% hill with 260 pounds, while palls to a geared motor's operating regime in the 80% efficiency range if you've got the correct gearing.
 
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