ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION DELTA /WYE and SERIE/PAPALLEL stator

[Doctorbass]

That's true rkosiorek , I forgot that.. for the negative and positive side of the AC and mosfets....

Dohhh!...
:x

Today I oppened my 9 x 7 nine cont motor to see if i could put larger wires than the 16 gauge stock one.

and for fun i measured and calculated the diameter of the winding wire size.

I wanted to have an idea of the maximum current this motor can take about the winding wire size inside.

I know that My X5 can take up to 90-100A for couples of seconds and that the total winding sectional is 5.2mm^2
(5 parallel AWG 17)

Not i calculated that the 9 x AWG 22 wires inside the 9 continent is equal to 2.8mm^2

so the difference between both motor sectional wire per phase is exactly 1.85

And the total weight of the motor for the mass to dissipate heat is 25lbs and 14lbs = 1.78

So i can assume that the ratio of power that the X5 motor can take would be close to 1.8 times the nine continent

If the X5 can take 90A burst than that mean the nine continent could take 50A burst probably 35A cont

Doc

 

[rkosiorek]

i designed it thinking i might be able to use it to switch my dual winding 5304/5302 motor and mount the whole thing inside the motor case. i only built one switch to test the idea.

all i did was stink up the entie floor of the apartment building when i fried the FETS. the heat build up was impressive. i think that for now relays are the only practical approach.

of course my design skills are not the greatest. mostly self taught and at the expense of sacrificing a lot of parts. so an actual engineer should do better tham me. but so far i have not attracted any suckers... err... volunteers to help out.

since christmas i have been playing with a Delta/Wye switch for a 500W BMC. i'm using a 40A Crystalyte controller, 3X 40A lighting relays and a circuit that mometarily interrupts the motor power by pulling down the e-brake line during the changeover. it works well enough that i want to try the same basic idea for te series/parallel 5304/5302. excep there i would use 6 relays.

rick

 

[Doctorbass]

i designed it thinking i might be able to use it to switch my dual winding 5304/5302 motor and mount the whole thing inside the motor case. i only built one switch to test the idea.

all i did was stink up the entie floor of the apartment building when i fried the FETS. the heat build up was impressive. i think that for now relays are the only practical approach.

of course my design skills are not the greatest. mostly self taught and at the expense of sacrificing a lot of parts. so an actual engineer should do better tham me. but so far i have not attracted any suckers... err... volunteers to help out.

since christmas i have been playing with a Delta/Wye switch for a 500W BMC. i'm using a 40A Crystalyte controller, 3X 40A lighting relays and a circuit that mometarily interrupts the motor power by pulling down the e-brake line during the changeover. it works well enough that i want to try the same basic idea for te series/parallel 5304/5302. excep there i would use 6 relays.

Excellent idea to activvate the ebrtake during the switching delay!!!

I should try that!

rick

 

[karma]

That's true rkosiorek , I forgot that.. for the negative and positive side of the AC and mosfets....

Dohhh!...
:x

Today I oppened my 9 x 7 nine cont motor to see if i could put larger wires than the 16 gauge stock one.

and for fun i measured and calculated the diameter of the winding wire size.

I wanted to have an idea of the maximum current this motor can take about the winding wire size inside.

I know that My X5 can take up to 90-100A for couples of seconds and that the total winding sectional is 5.2mm^2
(5 parallel AWG 17)

Not i calculated that the 9 x AWG 22 wires inside the 9 continent is equal to 2.8mm^2

so the difference between both motor sectional wire per phase is exactly 1.85

And the total weight of the motor for the mass to dissipate heat is 25lbs and 14lbs = 1.78

So i can assume that the ratio of power that the X5 motor can take would be close to 1.8 times the nine continent

If the X5 can take 90A burst than that mean the nine continent could take 50A burst probably 35A cont

Doc

thats about right im running in my test 25a cont and the motor case stays warm. still no magic smoke :wink:

i gave up on the mosfets, i used em up a my last amplifer project

 

[rkosiorek]

i liked the VO1263 driver chip though. it is photo-voltaic. internally it is an optoisolator with the usual LED input. the output though is vastly different. it has a bank of 20 or 30 photo diodes. these photo diodes are like solar cells and can make enough power from the Led's light to drive the external FET's directly. that means that no external power source is needed to drive it (other than the drive current for the LED)

i was thinking of using the aluminium body of the stator itself as the heatsink. it still may work, but i think that developing the SSR would be a touch beyond my present skill set unless i get very lucky in selecting the correct components right off the bat. have a better chance of winning the lotto.

the ebrake delay was a simple 555 timer driving a miniature PC mount relay i pulled from an discarded PC modem card.

rick

 

[karma]

further testing has had a good speed increase but im finding in delta the hubmotor has a weird vibe thats hard on spokes. thay snap around the nipple. im just replacing them as thay snap
the relays are holding up even on steep hills.

 

[Doctorbass]

further testing has had a good speed increase but im finding in delta the hubmotor has a weird vibe thats hard on spokes. thay snap around the nipple. im just replacing them as thay snap
the relays are holding up even on steep hills.

Thanks Karma! That would be nice to have a video of that speed shift while riding!!!

I finished my 9 continent motor mod yesterday. I used the same oem nylon wire for adding 3 to the motor for a total of 6. it's a 1.5mm2 size wich is the equivalent of AWG 14.6 size.

I thik it is ok for up to 35A without melting.

here is some pics of my DELTA/WYE mod:

 

[rkosiorek]

so how soon do we get a report on how well it runs?

rick

 

[karma]

ill leave the testing and reviews to doc. i still need a ca and other parts. didnt get a chance for a youtube vid. verry windy and cold here. looks like winter making a comback

nice work on the hubmotor.

 

[rkosiorek]

last couple of days have been rainy, last night was pretty windy, but temp wise it has not been that bad just 280km West of you in belleville, ON.

rick

 

[Almasi]

further testing has had a good speed increase but im finding in delta the hubmotor has a weird vibe thats hard on spokes. thay snap around the nipple. im just replacing them as thay snap
the relays are holding up even on steep hills.

Thanks Karma! That would be nice to have a video of that speed shift while riding!!!

I finished my 9 continent motor mod yesterday. I used the same oem nylon wire for adding 3 to the motor for a total of 6. it's a 1.5mm2 size wich is the equivalent of AWG 14.6 size.

I thik it is ok for up to 35A without melting.

here is some pics of my DELTA/WYE mod:

Very nice, can't wait to see your review and how well it hold the switching with load on it... I sooooo want to do this on my 5304 once I get next week!

Robin

 

[Doctorbass]

IT WORK !!!!!


7 april 2009 2h23am

I can confirm that using a 3PDT contactor at up to 75V and switching from WYE (star) to DELTA while the motor is running at full throttle, nothing blow!!

I used the ecrazyman 12 mosfet that Steveo sent me few month ago that i moded using better caps, more shunt in parallel, better regulator resistors and the famous 4110 mosfet.

I did that experiemnt in my lab with a nine continent RH206 motor the (9 x 7).

Speed recorded at 72V: 75kph in normal star (WYE) mode

Speed recorded at 63V: 143kph !!.. in delta mode

Highlighted facts:

I succeded to switch the contactor while the motor was running WOT without blowing something eventhough at 63V!!

Doc

Happy.. happy.. and .... ....happy !!

 

[Doctorbass]

Video here:

See part 1 and dont forget... part two also!!

PART 1
[youtube]TAaTO67zWfw[/youtube]

PART 2
[youtube]p3mm4hMAHwU[/youtube]

Doc

 

[Almasi]

AMAZING!!!!

Vraiment cool de voir comment ca donne plus de vitesse

I whish I could find a relay like that 3PDT with big amp rating that still fit in a Ebike....and no I don't plan to spend 1500$ USD!

Robin

 

[karma]

im using 3 20amp relays on each phase and its holding together.

nice vid doc. yes you will find when going from delta back to star with no load could be bad for the controller. but under load its not a problem.
im finding it only works well if you have a nice long road to pick up speed and no headwind


what would be nice is a extra relay that up's the amps in delta. than you would have that turbo button feel all i get is a change in rpm slowly. if you hit it just right.

 

[rkosiorek]

maybe we should look into a sufficiently large Transorb (TVS) to clamp the voltage spikes above 100V?

rick

 

[Doctorbass]

maybe we should look into a sufficiently large Transorb (TVS) to clamp the voltage spikes above 100V?

rick

yes.. I thought about that.. but i wonder if they will handle all that power above 100V x the current?

With a free wheel it's ok.. the kinetic energy is low.. but with me o the bike on the road.. this is a different story..

I sould try...

 

[karma]

just a small test on road. i needed a extra hand for the switch


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwjAChsPPU0

 

[Doctorbass]

just a small test on road. i needed a extra hand for the switch


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwjAChsPPU0

That is why i prefered to use a contactor that i can locate close to the controller.. and that can be activated via a small remote switch on the handle bar :wink:

Doc

 

[dimitrib90]

SHOW US A TOP SPEED VIDEO!!! IM DYING TO KNOW HOW FAST THIS THING GOES!!!

 

[Doctorbass]

SHOW US A TOP SPEED VIDEO!!! IM DYING TO KNOW HOW FAST THIS THING GOES!!!

That will be FAST !!

I'll try first at 50V then ....75V

The no load at 50V is 54kph in STAR mode

and 99.8kph in DELTA mode.

I am truing the wheel to correct the 1cm offset.. than i'll put battery and ... go!

i'll use first that setup on my old treck with the 9 cont motor... than... i'll put that on my MOngoose Beast!! 5305 100V 90A


And then… when I’ll finish my 18 mosfet controller I’ll be using 100V 150A !!

Projected speed on road.. 110/115 km/h

Doc

 

[rkosiorek]

for the TVS i was thinking of using a Bi-Directional:

http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Data_Sheets/Littelfuse_TVS-Diode_1.5KE.pdf

these will suppress spikes of 1500W and are under a buck a piece. i was thinking of using a pair per set of contacts. one from the common to the NO contact and the second from the common to the NC contact.

rick

 

[karma]

thanks for the pdf

 

[johnrobholmes]

I see no problem switching from Wye to Delta when running, but if you were to switch from Delta to Wye while at speed the resulting backvoltage would be great. If average voltage on the motor was 50v in Delta termination, upon the switch the motor would generate 89v into the controller plus the inductive spike of the motor turning into a lower KV generator. I can only imagine how huge the short term inductive spike would be.

 

[HAL9000v2.0]

That is great Dr. Must admit that I was waiting for your test to start destroying my motor
Just thinking; will moving the halls improve efficiency in delta mode or to have 6 halls ?!?!?