Even Newer 4 to 24-cell Battery Management System (BMS)

Both Andy and Gary have the right approach.
Personally, I would unsolder the 20k resistor just left of the spot Gary circled in blue (or just one side of it).
 
fechter said:
Both Andy and Gary have the right approach.
Personally, I would unsolder the 20k resistor just left of the spot Gary circled in blue (or just one side of it).
I have installed a switch at the acryl coverage of my Charger/BMS combo, which on the one side it shortens the 16th with the 15th channel and at the other side it opens the trace down of 20k resistor shown by Gary. So I hope I can use this charger for 15 or 16 cells, as I only need to switch the slide switch from left to right. The next step I would have to install a second switch to choose the right voltage - 56V(15 cells) and 60V(16 cells). I am not sure if this will work, but I will try this in the next days.
 
fechter said:
You put the resistor between the controller and the throttle and pull down on the controller side. The resistor will not get hot, you can wrap it in heat shrink if you want.
The diagram below (courtesy of Justin) shows 3-5k, but I think 1K will be fine. The most it could pass is 5ma with a 5v supply. You don't need a diode either, the optocouplers can't backfeed the throttle circuit.


OK, this great. I went to Radio Shack today to get some resistors. Easy enough. Then, I opened the drawer, and they had what I didn't expect. I found the 1kohm section. Great... but, they had as bunch of wattages. HA!!! 1/8w, 1/4w, 1/2w, 1w.

So, I thought to myself, "How much power do I need to compensate for?"

Well, basic E=IR math tells me that I'll end up having to deal with 5mA max. So, about 2.5milliwatts at 5v. 1/8w resistor would be plenty.

For the heck of it, I went and got the 1/4w resistors. Overkill perhaps?

Will this matter?
 
^^^ Well, I guess it's no matter. I hooked it up, and it seems to run just fine.
 
Can this circuit be modified to cut off at 2.5v instead of 2.1v?

What components would have to be modified?

Thanks
 
i dont know if i should post here or a pm but i found an interesting thing for cheaper or lower cost prototyping

http://hackaday.com/2009/03/11/batchpcb-now-even-more-a-la-carte/

unfortunately it may require conglomeration or group buy and a change of pcb software but at as little as $2.50 a board it may be useful
 
Technologic said:
Can this circuit be modified to cut off at 2.5v instead of 2.1v?

What components would have to be modified?

Thanks

You can change the LVC set point to 2.7V pretty easy by using the 2.7V version of the TC54 voltage detector, but I don't think they have a 2.5V version of TC54 chip for each channel.

-- Gary
 
I have some questions regarding using the Goodrum/Fetcher BMS to manage high Amp-Hour cells. I am thinking along the lines of 90-AHr to 160-AHr cells (think Thunder Sky or Sky Energy prismatic cells). Here's my current understanding of the issues regarding balancing large packs:

According to another Goodrum post, the Goodrum/Fetcher BMS shunts a large amount of current (around 500ma) as opposed to the 50ma or 100ma that is common in other BMS. This makes the Goodrum/Fetcher board an acceptable option for managing large amp-hour cells. The amount of current shunted during charging is tweak-able by changing the W/Ohm values on the large resistor for each channel. If a 160AH cells got 2% out of balance (or 3.2 AH) then it would take a stock Goodrum/Fetcher BMS an extra 6 hours to completely let the lower charged cell catch up during normal charging.

It is for this reason we see the recommendation of using a VoltPhreaks charger to charge up each cell to "full" before having the BMS manage everything. Once a pack is balanced and assembled users have commented that they rarely even get close to 2% out of balance and usually they stay very close to exactly in balance after a few cycles. Most of the data in the E-S forum so far has been collected against Headway, PSI/LifeBatt, and other brands of LiFePO4. If there are significant differences in capacity and internal resistance on the SkyE/TSky cells then this could be a problem for the Goodrum Fetcher BMS. On the flip side if the cells are close to identical then the G/F BMS will work fine.

I'm willing to take the bet that the G/F BMS is fine for managing up to maybe 200 Amp-Hour packs. That's just a gut feeling so I figured I should ask the group specifically:

I can tell that there are several users out there that are managing 10/20/60 Amp-Hour packs with this BMS; is anybody using larger amp-hour combinations with the BMS?

I know that AndyH is using the BMS with a pack of 21 of the 60AH Thunder Sky cells. AndyH, have you had any ThunderSky LVC issues using the BMS? (I'll check the PakTrakr thread for this too.) Are there any balancing issues with balancing these large Amp-Hour packs?

What is a common "percentage out of balance" that cells land at after common use? I am certain this has to vary by vendor (Thunder Sky vs PSI vs Headway, etc.).

How large a cell is the BMS "rated" to handle?


Thanks, --adam
 
There's no real Ah limit a pack can be to use this design, but there are some practical limits to how much current the charger used puts out. There are two functions that a BMS needs to do as a minimum. One is low voltage protection, for each cell, and the second is to manage the charging process in a way that each cell can be charged to its own full level, at its own pace, just as if individual cell chargers were being used. That's all that really needs to happen. Many of the imported BMS designs also monitor and control discharge current, and will cut the negative power lead if some limit is reached. This current limit function is included out of necessity because most of these BMS boards were designed to be used with 1-2C - rated so called "duct tape" packs. They needed to keep users from killing the cells by pulling too much current out of them.

Richard and I did not include this function because since all the current has to go through all the cells, all the time, current limiting can be done at the pack level, in the controller. Low voltage protection is the only thing that needs to be done at the cell level. Almost all controllers I'm aware of have some sort of ebrake input that can be connected to the BMS' LCV circuits so that any one of them tripping will cause the controller to cut power and remove the load. So from a discharge point of view, the BMS doesn't care how big or small the pack is. It will simply tell the controller to cut power if it detects any one cell, or block of paralleled cells, gets too low.

Charging is a bit different. Basically, the BMS does nothing during the bulk constant current (CC) mode, where the charger is pumping out the max current it can deliver. Once any of the cell voltages reaches 3.68V, the shunt circuit for that cell starts operating, which basically keeps the cell voltage at that limit. This is just like having individual constant voltage (CV) chargers on each cell. What is actually happening is that once the cell voltage is held at that point, it will start reducing the amount of current in can accept into the cell. Since all the current has to go through all the cells with a bulk charging setup, if one of them gets to this point before the others and starts limiting the current, it will also be limiting the current for the "slower" cells, which still need more current. What the shunts do is make sure that there is at least 500mA of current that is bypassed to the next cell in series. Depending on how far the low cells need to go, and how big the cells are, capacity-wise, will determine how long the "slowpokes" need to finish getting a full charge. Anyway, part of the logic to control the shunts involves interrupting the charger current going to the pack. There is a single FET that controls this, and it is rated pretty high, current-wise, but what will probably be the limiting factor is the amount of current the traces on the PCB can handle. I think Richard decided the board was probably good for up to about 30A, but to go up to say, 50A, you'd probably want to beef up the traces with solder, like they do with the higher power controllers.

What should also be considered is the pack voltage that you using these boards with. It is quite easy to daisy-chain more than one board's worth of channels together, for higher voltage packs, but there is a limit to the voltage difference between the charger's voltage (i.e. -- approximately 3.7V x # of cells in series...) and whatever the pack ends up being when fully drained (say 3.0V x # of cells...). I think this has something to do with the 12V regulator circuit for the charger/FET control logic. I don't know what this limit is, but I know that increasing this number was pretty much the only difference between v2.2 and v2.3, the current version.

Regarding how much cells get out-of-balance, it has been my experience that for healthy cells, it really depends on how far down you discharge the pack. This seems to hold true for all of my a123-based "healthy" packs, and for the two PSI/BMI-based 12s/10Ah packs I use on my wife's bike. My wife rarely runs the pack down about the 25-30% SOC level, and when I have checked, the cells were all very close in voltage (within about .005-.007V...). I have used these packs, and drained them down to LVC cutoff, and have noticed the cell were a lot farther apart (.1-.2V mostly, with some as high as .5V lower...). I've seen the same sort of theing recently with some of my newer-built a123 packs. With most of my a123 packs, they were made up of a mix of mostly healthy cells combine usually with one or two "stressed" cells in parallel. The healthy ones "help" the stressed ones, and the net result is that cell voltages even right off the charger are always all over the place. As long as you do cell-level low voltage protection, and you charge in a way that lets each block of cells get to their own "full" level, at their own pace, I could care less about how well "balanced" they stay. Recently, however, I have begun reconfiguring all my a123 packs, and in the process I'm trying to weed out the weak/stressed cells. With the couple of these reconfigured packs so far, I have seen pretty much the same thing as with the PSI/BMI packs. If I don't discharge down to cutoff, the cell blocks stay pretty close. If I go down to cutoff, I might see a 1-2% difference.

I have no idea if I answered your question, because I don't remember what it was, but hopefully this helps. :roll:

-- Gary
 
Maybe it's unnecessary for A123 (at least for healthy cells) but I always thought a proper LVC would just effectively remove a cell from the series. Granted this would probably be really expensive but essentially if one cell goes bad, a 16S pack then acts as 15S, with the BMS skipping that cell during discharge. But I'm guessing you would need 16 relays or contactors for this.
 
CGameProgrammer said:
Maybe it's unnecessary for A123 (at least for healthy cells) but I always thought a proper LVC would just effectively remove a cell from the series. Granted this would probably be really expensive but essentially if one cell goes bad, a 16S pack then acts as 15S, with the BMS skipping that cell during discharge. But I'm guessing you would need 16 relays or contactors for this.

You could use 16 MOSFETS for it as well... but yeah it would be more expensive for sure.

Could possibly use somewhat low wattage ones though... possibly somewhat cheap at today's prices.
 
Gary,

Thanks for the responses!

I have two of the v2.2 BMS boards - I am planning on breaking my EV pack up with an extra contactor into two 72V packs when charging, each with it's own BMS board. That should keep the voltages sane for the BMS boards and allow me to use cheaper chargers. It sounds like cells generally don't deviate that much unless heavily discharged. As for the large cells I'm thinking about using, I guess you never know until you try :p

Now if Mouser can hurry up and get the TC54s in stock I can actually solder the boards together. :evil:

Cheers, --adam
 
This is strange.

I plugged my 60v charger in, charged up the battery for about 5 hours or so now. When all the LED's lit up, I noticed the main LED starting to flicker. This seemed good.

However, about 15mins later, a couple of the channel LED's went out, and it looks like the thing is still trying to finish charging those cells, and the main LED is solid red again.

Is this normal?

UPDATE: 3hrs later.

All LED's lit now, but the main LED is still red. It does try to blink once in a while.

2nd UPDATE: 2hrs later.

All LED's fully lit for abour 2hrs, but the main is still red.

Vltage 60.2v. Weird.

Final Update: 10hrs of charging.

All of a sudden, my charger stopped. All LED's on the BMS turned off, including the main LED. This normally should not happen. It should be green. So, I unplugged everything, let it sit for 15min, then plugged in the charger again. All LED's came on, and the main LED finally turned green after about 5 mins. Then, the charger turned off again, like it should. This was sort of weird. I'm not sure why it did all this.

Hopefully it won't do it again.
 
I had a similar problem with the charger I'm using. Apparently it is designed for lead acid, and has some kind of timer circuit that switches the charger to float (slightly lower voltage) after a certain time, then completely off some time later.

Once my pack was balanced, the cells would balance and shut off the BMS before the charger cut off.

I don't know if this is like your charger, but it is a possibility.
 
Dropping the voltage is exactly what my cheap SLA charger did when I experiemented with that.

The one I'm using, is supposedly setup to use with LiFePO4. It has a built in current sensor that shuts it off when it reachs full charge. I'm thinking the two set points for the charger and the BMS may be very close to each other, because the last charge I did, the BMS shut off first, and the green LED lit up, as it should.

This time, the charger light turned green, and it shut off just before the BMS completed balancing.

But, when I waited a few minutes and plugged the charger back in, the BMS then finished balancing in a matter of 5 minutes, and shut off first as it should. Then, the charger quit when it saw no more current going into the battery due to the BMS quitting first.

Weird. But I think that may be what happened.

What I found odd more than anything, was all 16 BMS channel LED's were fully lit for several hours before it finished balancing. I thought they would come on only a few minutes towards the end.
 
Do you really need a charger when using this BMS? I just assumed a power supply that outputs the correct voltage was good enough and the BMS would take care of everything.
 
CGameProgrammer said:
Do you really need a charger when using this BMS? I just assumed a power supply that outputs the correct voltage was good enough and the BMS would take care of everything.

You are correct. All you need is a current limted supply that tops out at about 1/2V above 3.68V x # of cells. :)

-- Gary
 
CGameProgrammer said:
Do you really need a charger when using this BMS? I just assumed a power supply that outputs the correct voltage was good enough and the BMS would take care of everything.

Don't you need some kind of constant current regulation/resistance as well? I mean couldn't you fry the battery and BMS? It's not as if you can just plug it into a wall outlet, with a simple converter in between, right?
 
What we are talkingabout here are switched lab-type Ac-DC power supplies. The do have current limiting, and they have a maximum voltage rating. So, if you get the right voltage output, it is really nothing different than a CC/CV charger.

-- Gary
 
proempiet said:
is it possible to add a monitor functionality to the BMS (i mean on the printboard) a guy on this http://genki.home.ionet.net/BattMon/BattMonArticle.html website did for a 12 Volt car??

Nope. Not integrated anyway. It would be easy enough to add a separate monitoring circuit at the battery connector. The one shown in the article would constantly drain the batteries and would be only practical for large packs.
 
i am looking for a replacement tc54 for the bms board and i looked on mouser and while the exact 579-TC54VC2102EZB is out of stock with 10 week lead time i was wondering if

http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDet ... OOEQ%3d%3d will be ok?

i found that 2 of them failed resulting on overdischarging 2 cells.

thanks and please let me know asap i am somewhat in a panic here.

update even digikey is out of stock of the exact one.

update 2: i just ordered the surface mount version to do until the normal version gets back in stock.
 
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