Even Newer 4 to 24-cell Battery Management System (BMS)

You know, everything with my older BMS (I think the v2.5) seems to be working really well, but I have been having something happen as of late, that has me perplexed.

Today I charged it for 7 hrs, and when 15 channels were lit, the last channel got about half way lit, and then about 6 channels ctarted flickering quickly, like there was a loose connection, and some even went off completely. The main LED circuit didn't trip, it just kept charging.

I tapped my 16 channel disconnect between the batt and BMS, and that seemed to help. I thought maybe I got some loose connections in there, but the battery seems to charge fine until it gets to that point.

Strange.

Any ideas why this is happening?
 
Patriot said:
Today I charged it for 7 hrs, and when 15 channels were lit, the last channel got about half way lit, and then about 6 channels ctarted flickering quickly, like there was a loose connection, and some even went off completely. The main LED circuit didn't trip, it just kept charging....
Strange.

Any ideas why this is happening?

Try measuring the voltage on the cells when this is happening. You could also try measuring the voltages across the shunt resistors. Look for one that is significantly different than the others. If any cell fails to reach the cutoff voltage, the board will never shut off. I had one cell group in my pack that went bad and would never get up to 3.6v.

When charging, the current in all the cells is the same because they are in series. The current in the string will be determined by the highest cell when it starts throttling. If there is a problem with one cell that causes it to throttle more than the others, other cell LEDs could go out. A bad connection on a tap wire or a bad connection on a cell jumper could do this.

Another test might be to completely disconnect the cells and try running the circuit. You should get auto-shutoff almost immediately (cell LEDs blink breifly and main LED goes green).
 
brainzel said:
OK thank you, Fechter.
I will order 0.01uf capacitors and 4,7k Ohm resistors and take a full 24 and a 14 channel board.

One other possible change:
Resistors R6, R7 + R8 may need to be 10k instead of 100k. Andy is working on testing some of these things.
 
Hello,

I build a 4 cell version of the BMS, presumably version 2.6, as the Mouser part list was the same as the one presently supplied on the tpacks page.
(The supplied printed manual was 2.5 but some parts did not match my Mouser order and I therefore partly ignored the partlist of the 2.5 manual)

The BMS works fine, just it often shuts off too early.
Is this the auto-shut off problem that Andy experienced and that can be changed by adapting the capacitors ?
Do you have any news which is the best workaround ?

Thank you very much for your help,

Thomas
 
bapou said:
The BMS works fine, just it often shuts off too early.
Is this the auto-shut off problem that Andy experienced and that can be changed by adapting the capacitors ?
Do you have any news which is the best workaround ?

Thank you very much for your help,

Thomas

We're still working on that, but Andy's problem was not shutting off at all. If you're having problems with shutting off too early, changing C3 to a smaller value may help. I'd recommend 0.01uf at this point.
Another way that might happen is if your cells are small and the charger current is too high, in which case the cells may be reaching shutoff voltage before they are actually fully charged.
With only 4 cells, I suppose if they were very closely matched, you could get premature shutoff. I'll have to think about how you could avoid this. One way would be to intentionally imbalance things by discharging one cell a bit more than the others before charging. Normally with higher cell counts this is not an issue due to the variation between cells.
 
Hi Fechter,
thanks for your quick answer.
I'm charging 4x50Ah LiFePo4 cells with a power supply than can give up to 20A. The cells were pretty out of balance in the beginning.

What is the typical voltage tolerance for the shutoff.... (e.g. 3 cells are >= 3.65V, therefore the yellow LED's are fully on,
cell 4 has 3.55V... yellow LED still nearly off... is a shutoff now normal or should the charging continue to get the 4th cell to > 3.6V ? )

BTW: Yesterday I measured the current and had therefore my Multimeter in series with the charger. Due to the longer leads (higher resistance)
, the current was limited... This time the cutoff worked better. So maybe the problem is caused by the high charge current (or pulses of high
current as I directly connected a Meanwell power supply to the BMS without capacitors...)

thank's
Thomas
 
I think you are right about the wire resistance. If you have a way to decrease the charger voltage slightly it would help too.

The cell voltage when the LED first barely lights up is very close to the voltage where it is fully lit, so even if a cell is barely lit, it should be OK for it to trigger the shutoff. The normal tolerance between cells is about +/- 10mV. 100mV would be out of spec.

With your setup, one problem could be the voltage drop in the wires between the board and the cells. The full charging current is passing through the pack+ and pack- wires, so any voltage drop in the wire could result in less voltage on the end cells. On the positive side of the pack, you can run the charger wire directly to the pack + to avoid a drop in that wire. On the negative side, it's a bit harder to avoid. You just have to use heavy wire from the board to the pack. Ideally, I'd use a 4 wire system to eliminate the effect of voltage drop in the wires, but that would require a new board layout. All the cells in the middle don't have this problem (as much) since the tap wires will be limited to whatever the maximum shunt current is.

If you measure the voltage for the end cells at the board and compare to the voltage across the actual cells, you can get an idea for how much difference there is. Do this measurement while charging.

If you have a current limited power supply, you can apply power to each cell separately with less than the shunt current and measure the voltage. This is the best way to check the voltage set points. You can place a light bulb in series with a higher voltage supply to make it current limited. Something like a 120v, 20w bulb should be good enough for testing.
 
So....... 91 POSTS? WOW where is this at? Is it something I can build now is there a better thread? I need a 24 s system for lipo any info is great thanks.
 
A BETTER CONNECTOR!!!


I have discovered a continuous problem with my 17-pin connector between my BMS and battery. There are two channels that tend to go on the fritz, and I believe it is because of bad connection. I clean the pins in the connector, and it'll work for a charge, but then after a few days, it goes on the fritz again, and starts flickering when it reaches the balancing mode at the end of the charge.


If I can't get the little female part to grab the pins well enough, I was wondering what you all would recommend as an available replacement out there. I was hoping to just clip the wires at the connector, and add a new one in it's place.

The connector I have is very flat, and needed for the lcoation of it, because the lid of battery box has little room for a big connector.

Any suggestions?
 
After trying to troubleshoot my bad connection problem today, I noticed the last channel that is flickering was slowly getting brighter, but never quite fully on.

When total battery voltage was peaking around 60.2v, I disconnected the battery, and checked individual cell voltages.

The flickering channel was reading 4.2v. This is much higher than the rest which read around 3.6-3.7v each.

Its as if it wants to fully light up that channel, but won't. If it is flickering, and not fully bypassing/lighting up, would it then be giving pulses of current, which could overvolt the cells in that channel?

When I pulled up on my 17-pin connector, the channel LED almost fully lit up for a second, but still flickered a little. I did this repeatedly several times, and the birhgtness of the LED changes when I move it around.


One last test....

I unplugged the 17-pin channel connector, and plugged in the charger like you suggested, to see if it would blink the LED's, then trip the main logic LED. I did however, leave the main +/- leads hooked up to the battery. I just disconnected the channels.

Well, when I plugged it in, they all started flickering on and off in unison, and the main LED was trying to go green, but wouldn't go solid. The rest of the channel led's where still flickering quite a bit. This went on for about 10 seconds. Eventually, the channel LED's all went off, and the main LED went green, like you said, but I'm not sure why they were flickering so much to begin with.


What the heck is going on?
 
Arlo1 said:
So....... 91 POSTS? WOW where is this at? Is it something I can build now is there a better thread? I need a 24 s system for lipo any info is great thanks.

Sorry the thread is so long. If I have time, I'll make a reference topic with just the build and test details.

For Lipo use, there are a few component values that need to be changed. I'm not sure if we have the Lipo parts list posted yet. We're also having some issues with the 2.6 boards, but I think we'll have that resolved soon.
 
Patriot said:
Well, when I plugged it in, they all started flickering on and off in unison, and the main LED was trying to go green, but wouldn't go solid. The rest of the channel led's where still flickering quite a bit. This went on for about 10 seconds. Eventually, the channel LED's all went off, and the main LED went green, like you said, but I'm not sure why they were flickering so much to begin with.


What the heck is going on?

The flickering may be normal. It just indicates the oscillation frequency is so low that you can see it. That is not necessarily a problem as long as your charger behaves.

4.2v on a cell is bad. If the connector is bad, that could cause this. Try measuring the voltage on that cell at the board (you can probe between adjacent power resistor leads). If the voltage is still high, even measured at the board, then it would indicate a problem in the cell circuit.

Some kind of current limited power supply is best for testing cell circuits. If you don't have a bench power supply, it should work to use your charger output in series with a light bulb to limit the current. Something like a 120v, 20w to 40w regular light bulb should limit the current to less than the shunt maximum. Then you can feed each cell circuit and measure the voltage across it. Around 250 - 400ma is good for 500ma shunts. Each shunt should measure right around 3.66v-3.72v. If the voltage is high, but the shunt LED lights up, it would indicate a problem in the divider resistors (R101, R102) or the LM431. Hint: make sure there is no solder flux residue around the divider resistors and the LM431 that could throw off the voltage. If the voltage is high, but the LED doesn't light up, then the LED or Q101 could be bad. Also measure the voltage across the LED when it is lit. This should be right around 2.0v. If a LED gets stressed, the forward voltage may increase dramatically. I've seen some that light up OK, but have a voltage of over 2.5v, which is bad.
 
Last 2 channels of my 20s cells board doesn't light up. I think it was bad connection in 17 pin before I connected battery for charging. Now I think last 2 BD136 burned, because on those last pins I see 4.2V. The other problem that first 4 channels leds flickering like in 10hz and I am getting 0.8V on those cell circuits other cells circuits seems ok except the last 2. The main led goes (green/red) like in 10hz or something near that.
 
Yes, if you have a bad connection between the cells and the board, things can fry.
The first 4 cells will behave a bit differently due to the power drain of the control circuit. This is pretty normal.

What version board are you using? What is the capacity (Ahr) of your cells?
 
Still can't' find a problem in last 2 cells. They just don't light up when I am only connecting charger. The voltage shows 4-4.2V on them. If I connecting only a cell for example 3.9V the led is shining. The first 4 cells also sometimes flicking sometimes they also don't shine and showing me 0-0,7V.
 
Karolis said:
Still can't' find a problem in last 2 cells. They just don't light up when I am only connecting charger. The voltage shows 4-4.2V on them. If I connecting only a cell for example 3.9V the led is shining. The first 4 cells also sometimes flicking sometimes they also don't shine and showing me 0-0,7V.

Voltage measurements with no cells attached can be off by quite a bit when the circuit is throttling. To get an accurate reading, it's usually necessary to hang a large (>100uf) capacitor across the cell circuit. Regardless of the voltage, however, the LEDs on those channels should be lighting up. Since all the cell circuits are in series, if one is throttling the current to a level that's lower than what it takes to light up the LEDs, they could stay off. This would indicate a significant variation in at least one cell circuit.

It's normal for the 1 through 4 cell LEDs to be a bit dimmer than the rest due to the current draw of the control circuit. This would be more obvoious when using lower shunt currents.

You might try measuring with cells attached, but carefully monitor the cell voltages to make sure none of them go over 4.2v or they could be damaged.

Check the voltages on the any shunt, all shunts, and 12v lines when charging.
 
F**k yesterday I discovered that my 18s shunt resistors are 5W 6.8kohm and other two on last channels 5W 6.8ohm. They are ceramic ones, so no colour code on them for quick identify. I soldered all 6.8ohm and now then I connect the board all LEDs suddenly goes green like in proper way.
 
Karolis said:
F**k yesterday I discovered that my 18s shunt resistors are 5W 6.8kohm and other two on last channels 5W 6.8ohm. They are ceramic ones, so no colour code on them for quick identify. I soldered all 6.8ohm and now then I connect the board all LEDs suddenly goes green like in proper way.

Good deal. That could possibly cause a problem.
 
Only for my personal understanding: everything is fixed and I can go on and solder my board to the end, even change the R3 resistor?
Please tell my that it's so simple and everything works fine! :)
(I can't await to get everything together and charge the first time! :) )
 
Hi guys:

I haven't been around for a while, but It's great to see you guys are working away.

First of all, Gary and Richard Rock. You are doing our world a great service.

Is there an online manual for this BMS? Do you want me to help make one? I can get software that makes windows help files that Gary could link to in his footer. Then everyone can get the most up to date manual at any time.

I looked through the pages for a link to an official website, but can't find it so far. It seems logical to have one. I was also hoping that Gary would have a link in his footer directing me to ordering info: cost, where to send money etc). That info could also be in the manual.

I may just be missing it because I don't have the patience to read 90 pages. Really I just like pictures.

Keep up the great work,
Eric


 
Hey Eric. Good to have you back. I missed your big type. :D Much easier on older eyes. :roll:

There's no owner's manual, per se, but the building and testing instructions are here. I do, however, think a Help function would be great. If nothing else, it might keep Richard from answering similar questions so much. :)

The order page is here: http://www.tppacks.com/products.asp?cat=26. I'm finally getting around to adding a few more items. I've been working on some things that are a bit more LiPo-oriented, seeing how many here are going that direction, myself included. With LiPos, the tendency is to make the packs compact and lightly wrapped. They don't really lend themselves to having a heat-generating full BMS board co-located with the cells. For that reason, I've split the LVC and charge functions into separate boards. The LVC portion can and should be co-located with the cells. For the best performance, it is better to parallel cells, and then put the parallel blocks in series. The LiPo packs many of us have been using usually come as six 5Ah cells in series. Each of these 6s packs have 7-pin balancer pigtails and 10-gauge main power leads. To do the parallel first, then series technique, you really need to connect the balancer plugs together, so I've included onboard connectors for this on the LVC board.

For charging, I'm doing a new balancer that is based on independent 6-channel sections. It is similar to the existing BMS cell circuits, in that shunts are involved to hold the high cells at a cutoff voltage, but there are some significant differences. First of all, LiPos don't normally have the longevity of LiFePO4's supposed "thousands of cycles". Most RC LiPo packs last for hundreds of cycles, not thousands. What many have found, however, is that pack life can be significantly improved if they don't get charged to the full 4.2V per cell, but to 4.10-4.12V per cell. The difference is only 2%, but it seems to make a big difference. Anyway, what I found is that if a lower cutoff voltage is used, there's a lot more voltage headroom available for high cells to rise a bit above the cutoff and keep the current up higher for a longer period of time. With the current BMS circuits, the cutoff is set to whatever the max voltage that the cell is supposed to be charged to, which is 3.7V for LiFePO4 and 4.2V for LiPos. The 4.2V value is picked in order to make sure the cells don't get to the danger point. Cobalt-based LiPo cells will start exploding if the voltage gets too much over 4.3V. :shock: In any case, what I discovered is that by using an even lower shunt voltage turn on point of 4.10V, and by increasing the shunt current to about 650mA, I can still keep the per cell max voltage well under 4.2V, even with 10-20A charge currents. I did some worst-case tests where I purposely had one block of cells (in a 6s3p 15Ah pack configuration...) at a voltage that was 200mV higher than the other five blocks. This is a very unrealistic difference for healthy LiPo packs. All RC LiPo chargers won't even let you charge the pack if there is this much difference. They tell you the pack is done, and needs to be discarded. Anyway, I then charged the whole pack to 4.10V x 6, or 24.6V, at a 10A rate. The shunt came on for the high cell way before the rest, but since there is no "throttling" of the overall current involved, the rest of the cells had the full 10A to keep charging. The high cell's voltage kept rising as well, but because of the shunt, it was at a much slower rate. The high cell's voltage peaked at about 4.18V. It took awhile, probably a couple hours but eventually the high cell came down, and the pack ended up perfectly balanced. If throttling was involved, it would have been a lot longer, probably overnight.

The other difference in this new balancer is that I added a bit more logic so that a bi-color red-green LED could be used on every channel. What happens is that it starts out red. When the cell's voltage hits about 4.07V, it starts to transition to green. At about 4.80-4.85V, the LED is orange, and when it hits the point of when the shunt comes on, at 4.10V, it is fully green. Depending on the charge current, this transition takes about 2-3 minutes. With reasonably balanced cells, they usually all start to transition within seconds of each other. This gives a good indication of the relative balance of the cells in a pack.

Finally, by eliminating the need for current-limiting "throttling", each 6s balancer section is fully independent. That means you don't need to worry about connecting 6s "sub-packs" to the balancer in any particular order. The new LVC boards have a single 7-pin output pigtail that can be plugged into any 6s balancer section. You also don't have to worry about overlapping a cell, like you do with RC balancers, which balance to the lowest cell. This balancer balances to a set voltage point (4.10V...), so they will all end up at the same place. The initial board layout I did is for two 6s sections. Here's what it looks like:

View attachment 12-Cell Charge Balancer-v3.3 - PCB.jpg

It is sized to fit between the rails of a small extruded aluminum box. The shunt resistors mount from the bottom of the board, and make thermal contact with the bottom of the case. This turns the whole box into a heatsink. In order to handle the higher shunt currents, the higher power BD136 shunt transistor is used, and is mounted horizontally with a small heatsink pad underneath it. I'm working on the first "production" units right now, and will hopefully get these up on my site later today. Because these are a ton simpler than the existing BMS, in terms of parts count, I will offer these in various kit options, and I may also offer a fully assembled/tested version.

-- Gary
 
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