Evolv eCruiser negative buying experience

[RoadWrinkle]

Well after much thought and research, I decided to buy an eCruiser from Evovl Electric Bikes in Huntington Beach, California. I want to be as factual as I can in relating the BAD (IMHO) experience I had with them after sending them $2100 with my credit card:

1.) Checked out there bikes on their website and called the number listed on their site to make a purchase (there is in fact a way to buy their bikes from their website).

2.) The number lead me to an automated Google sort of answering machine service, that then lead me to leave a message, so I did.

3.) A few minutes later received a call back from a guy who said he was the owner of Evovl , I won't mention his name for privacy reasons. We discussed my order and he emailed me an invoice for the bike. I called him back with my credit card info on Tuesday night, he said he would ship first thing in the morning (Wed.) and that he would provide tracking info same day.

4.) He never shipped or sent tracking info on Wed. So I Google-mapped their business address (as listed on their website and the invoice they sent) and it was a residence in a suburb of Huntington Beach.

5.) So I called him late Wed. night wherein he indicated that he had to wait for my payment to clear PayPal before shipping and he was "sorry" for not following up with me. When I placed the order he made no mention of going through PayPal or waiting for payment to clear (I assumed a CC would clear immediately). He apologized for not contacting me and promised shipment first thing in the morning (Thursday).

6.) They never shipped on Thursday. Instead, I get an email from a different person from Evolv, with a .pdf file attached with a "General Waiver of All Claims" stating they would not ship the bike unless I signed the waiver and returned it to them, despite all ready being paid in full and promising to ship (twice).

7.) The waiver was not just for personal injury and property damage liability (which would be reasonable for en eBike company to want you to sign), this document also released them from any liability "use of equipment or property supplied by Evolv Bicycles" They wanted me to sign a contract wherein I agree that I have no legal recourse if there is something wrong with their bike, even if it was caused by "their own negligence".

8.) I emailed back refusing to sign this ridiculous (IMHO) General Release of All Claims, but demanded they ship to me or refund in full.

9.) They refused to ship and refunded me in Full again via PayPal.

I do not think they are trying to scam anyone out of their payment, Instead, I think they engage, IMHO, in horrible business practices and I would avoid trying to buy anything from them: This is my opinion, only, and based solely on my experience with them.

 

[evolvbikes]

We at evolv would like to offer our honest assessment of the facts of this transaction in hopes to clear some unfortunate confusion. Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this response.

1. If any consumer goes to our website, there is full functionality to purchase our bikes directly on-line. Complainers claim is false.
2. If any consumer calls the phone number listed on the website, two things will happen. 1. Someone "Live" will answer your call. 2. There is an option to leave a voice mail. All voice mails are followed up on the same business day.
3. This is where we feel that a communication breakdown occurred. It is our policy to ship products once the credit information has cleared (which we planned to do in this case). We feel that the consumer either wasn't clear on our policy or our policy was not properly communicated to him and for that we are very sorry.
4. The consumer's credit card cleared on Wed evening and the product was prepped and ready to send out today (Thurs). Evolv is a home-based organization. All production is done off base in a secure commercial facility.
5. PayPal is our method of collecting funds from the consumer. Once the funds clear (typically less than 24 hours) the product is shipped.
6. We don't know of any electrical bike company who doesn't use some type of liability waiver.
7. Our liability waiver is a standard, general waiver that many electric bike companies model. Our general liability waiver does not mention anything about defects of our products. All product warranties are cover in our posted warranty information which was also attached. Complainers claim is false.
8. We do not ship product without our general liability waiver signed. We offered to refund the complainer in full. He said that he still wanted the product but he refused to sign the liability waiver.
9. We refunded the complainer the full amount immediately.

Our thoughts; our standard business operating procedure is in direct line with all laws and regulations. The complainer made it very clear that he would not sign the waiver, but still expected to receive the product. We never want an upset customer and it is our deep regret that the complainer did not have a positive experience. We always encourage everyone who chooses to take the risk to ride any electric propelled vehicle to follow all safety and legal standards.

 

[wesnewell]

Having had unfortunate correspondence with the complainer, this is probably one customer you shouldn't regret losing. And I don't doubt you one bit.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

Notice the Evovl "spin doctor" fails to reveal that they took my payment, promised to ship "in the morning" (twice) over the course of two days and then refused to ship!

Anyone that wants a copy of our email thread and/or the .pdf document they sent with the ridiculous General Waiver of All Claims can PM me and I will provide it. Nothing in my posting was false, except it turns out you can order from their website, otherwise I have the email thread and documents to prove everything I stated in my OP. The .pdf they sent me is included below: NOTE: the first sentence of the second paragraph ("I herebye agree to release..."), it indeed indicates you are giving up your legal right to pursue them for anything having to do with there products, "even if caused by their negligence":

 

[RoadWrinkle]

The offending language in their release is this:


"I hereby agree to release and forever discharge Evolv Bicycles, LLC, and their agents, servants, employees, officers,
directors, trustees and all other persons or entities acting on their behalf and the manufacturer from any and all
claims, actions, damages, liability, cost or expenses and attorney fees which are related to, arise out of, or are in any
way connected to my participation or use of the E BIKES, use of equipment or property supplied by Evolv Bicycles,
LLC or my presence upon the premises, whether or not such claims, actions, damages, liability, cost or expenses are
caused by the negligence of the seller, the manufacturer or the distributor. By this AGREEMENT, it is my intention to
surrender and waive any rights to sue or exercise any legal right to seek damages from Evolv Bicycles, LLC and their
agents, servants, employees, officers, directors, trustees and all other persons or entities acting on their behalf."

 

[RoadWrinkle]

1. If any consumer goes to our website, there is full functionality to purchase our bikes directly on-line. Complainers claim is false.

OK this is my mistake, after changing some security settings on my computer, their add to cart button does work, so in fairness, this detail was in fact "false" in my OP, and I have edited my OP to reflect this. The fact remains that they took my money, promised to ship twice, then refused to ship unless I would sign the waiver, AFTER THE FACT, not how a business should be run IMHO.

 

[mark5]

I just now went to their website's shop link, added a Max cruiser to my shopping cart, and went to checkout. It then went to a Paypal payment page. So it seems to work. Can you quote the beginning sentence in their disclaimer releasing them from liability for defects? Didn't see it. I may have glossed over it.

Added: sorry Roadwrinkle, I see you had quoted the passage at the same time I had posted.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

I just now went to their website's shop link, added a Max cruiser to my shopping cart, and went to checkout. It then went to a Paypal payment page. So it seems to work. Can you quote the beginning sentence in their disclaimer releasing them from liability for defects? Didn't see it. I may have glossed over it.

"use of equipment or property supplied by Evolv Bicycles" Is the exact language.

So, why else would a consumer even want to have legal recourse against a manufacturer unless there was a product defect of some kind? Note, I am not saying their product is defective (I have never used their products), the problem is that, from the language of this release, there is no legal recourse if it is defective, so it conflicts with their warranty, IMHO.

 

[wesnewell]

Has nothing to do with warranty. I has to do with your use of the product. IOW's, they will fix a defective part, but they won't be responsible from any damages that occur because of it. That may or may not be enforceable under US/CA law even if you sign it. I thought you were an attorney.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

"which are related to, arise out of, or are in anyway connected to my participation or use of the E BIKES, use of equipment or property supplied by Evolv Bicycles,LLC or my presence upon the premises, whether or not such claims, actions, damages, liability, cost or expenses are
caused by the negligence of the seller, the manufacturer or the distributor."


This language is not limited to "use", as usual the -------- never has his facts straight.

 

[nukezero]

RoadWinkle

FYI, sorry to bring up this distasteful comparison, but I wanted to make a point. When I bought the 48V Motiv as I explained to you in the other thread, they didn't make me sign ANY waiver. Dropped the cash at the local bike shop and picked up the bike and been doing 27-28MPH since.

I think waivers make sense in a sort of way, but that's sort of like buying a Mustang Shelby GT500 and the dealer makes you sign a waiver that says IF you take the car to 200MPH, we will not be responsible for death! But things like that should be common sense.

But I think what Evolv is doing is, since they are a small business or a small garage business, they(he) wants to cover his butt in the event that God forbid something happens to the bike and the frame snaps while you're doing 25MPH and you get seriously injured. I think that to me is the claim that they are making, that they don't have enough insurance like the big box companies to cover litigations like this.

I wouldn't be too upset if he makes you sign it because he's looking out for himself. He doesn't have a $10 million dollar insurance policy like other bike brands of course in case something breaks.

Based on this, I would probably do everything you can to get your money back ASAP.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

RoadWinkle FYI, sorry to bring up this distasteful comparison, but I wanted to make a point. When I bought the 48V Motiv as I explained to you in the other thread, they didn't make me sign ANY waiver. Dropped the cash at the local bike shop and picked up the bike and been doing 27-28MPH since...Based on this, I would probably do everything you can to get your money back ASAP.

Thanks nukezero, Evolv did refund me in full after they refused to ship AFTER they got paid, I might add.

Good news is I have already taken your advice and called "Cameron" at Motiv, he runs the show and designed the bikes. He answered all the questions I had and he has much experience working for some other large e-bike manufacturers before he started Motiv a few years ago. One testament to the quality of their bikes is that retail bike shops all over the west coast carry his bikes, that says a lot to me. Also, the problem with Evovl's waiver is that you are not just disclaiming liability from injury, but also any claims "which are related to, arise out of, or are in anyway connected to my participation or use of the E BIKES, use of equipment or property supplied by Evolv Bicycles,LLC or my presence upon the premises, whether or not such claims, actions, damages, liability, cost or expenses are caused by the negligence of the seller, the manufacturer or the distributor." So you would have no legal recourse, for any kind of claim, period.

 

[nukezero]

RoadWinkle FYI, sorry to bring up this distasteful comparison, but I wanted to make a point. When I bought the 48V Motiv as I explained to you in the other thread, they didn't make me sign ANY waiver. Dropped the cash at the local bike shop and picked up the bike and been doing 27-28MPH since...Based on this, I would probably do everything you can to get your money back ASAP.

Thanks nukezero, Evolv did refund me in full after they refused to ship AFTER they got paid, I might add.

Good news is I have already taken your advice and called "Cameron" at Motiv, he runs the show and designed the bikes. He answered all the questions I had and he has much experience working for some other large e-bike manufacturers before he started Motiv a few years ago. One testament to the quality of their bikes is that retail bike shops all over the west coast carry his bikes, that says a lot to me. Also, the problem with Evovl's waiver is that you are not just disclaiming liability from injury, but also an claims "which are related to, arise out of, or are in anyway connected to my participation or use of the E BIKES, use of equipment or property supplied by Evolv Bicycles,LLC or my presence upon the premises, whether or not such claims, actions, damages, liability, cost or expenses are caused by the negligence of the seller, the manufacturer or the distributor." So you would have no legal recourse, for anything, period.

Yes, exactly. That was what I forgot to say, is that a ton of local bike shops in southern California that already carry his bikes. So the level of support is going to be there. Plus, there is no waiver if you're a waiver-hater.

I did have a minor issue with the bike and Cameron and the Motiv company really took care of me real well. The turn-around time was 1-day for the issues and I got to say, I love the 2-year warranty and the support that my local bike gives me.

If you need a recommendation, I know a socal shop (5-star Yelp reviews all-around) that can ship you the bike to Hawaii. The shop works very close with Motiv and that's how I got my technical issue resolved very fast. I don't think I can post it here due to endless-sphere rules otherwise, they'll think I'm advertising.

 

[amberwolf]

Roadwrinkle: I think this thread would be better placed as part of your original thread asking about that company, so the question and the results and information/answers are all in the same place for future readers/searchers.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=52989&p=787494#p787494

If you agree I will merge the two for you.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

Roadwrinkle: I think this thread would be better placed as part of your original thread asking about that company, so the question and the results and information/answers are all in the same place for future readers/searchers.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=52989&p=787494#p787494

If you agree I will merge the two for you.

If we can keep the title in THIS thread, thank you that would be great, but the other thread is locked.....b/c wesnewel kept flaming it...

 

[wesnewell]

"which are related to, arise out of, or are in anyway connected to my participation or use of the E BIKES, use of equipment or property supplied by Evolv Bicycles,LLC or my presence upon the premises, whether or not such claims, actions, damages, liability, cost or expenses are
caused by the negligence of the seller, the manufacturer or the distributor."


This language is not limited to "use", as usual the 'weasel' never has his facts straight.

Starting with the name calling again huh. At least you learned how to spell weasel. Too bad you don't really know anything about liability laws.

 

[slacker]

why don't you lock this thread?

 

[RoadWrinkle]

RoadWinkle FYI, sorry to bring up this distasteful comparison, but I wanted to make a point. When I bought the 48V Motiv as I explained to you in the other thread, they didn't make me sign ANY waiver. Dropped the cash at the local bike shop and picked up the bike and been doing 27-28MPH since...Based on this, I would probably do everything you can to get your money back ASAP.

Thanks nukezero, Evolv did refund me in full after they refused to ship AFTER they got paid, I might add.

Good news is I have already taken your advice and called "Cameron" at Motiv, he runs the show and designed the bikes. He answered all the questions I had and he has much experience working for some other large e-bike manufacturers before he started Motiv a few years ago. One testament to the quality of their bikes is that retail bike shops all over the west coast carry his bikes, that says a lot to me. Also, the problem with Evovl's waiver is that you are not just disclaiming liability from injury, but also an claims "which are related to, arise out of, or are in anyway connected to my participation or use of the E BIKES, use of equipment or property supplied by Evolv Bicycles,LLC or my presence upon the premises, whether or not such claims, actions, damages, liability, cost or expenses are caused by the negligence of the seller, the manufacturer or the distributor." So you would have no legal recourse, for anything, period.

Yes, exactly. That was what I forgot to say, is that a ton of local bike shops in southern California that already carry his bikes. So the level of support is going to be there. Plus, there is no waiver if you're a waiver-hater.

I did have a minor issue with the bike and Cameron and the Motiv company really took care of me real well. The turn-around time was 1-day for the issues and I got to say, I love the 2-year warranty and the support that my local bike gives me.

If you need a recommendation, I know a socal shop (5-star Yelp reviews all-around) that can ship you the bike to Hawaii. The shop works very close with Motiv and that's how I got my technical issue resolved very fast. I don't think I can post it here due to endless-sphere rules otherwise, they'll think I'm advertising.

Thanks again nuke, was wondering if you could detail the issue's you had with the bike. Mahalo.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

Roadwrinkle: I think this thread would be better placed as part of your original thread asking about that company, so the question and the results and information/answers are all in the same place for future readers/searchers.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=52989&p=787494#p787494

If you agree I will merge the two for you.

Also the other thread did not have any comments from someone that actually delt with the company or used their bike, which was the reason for the OP...

 

[nukezero]

Thanks again nuke, was wondering if you could detail the issue's you had with the bike. Mahalo.

The issue was that the bike was cutting out intermittently all of a sudden. The motor would spin under no load but once you sit on it, then it would not intermittently cut out. Eventually, after few days, it got worse to the point where it would cut out with no load too.

I had originally figured it was the battery because I saw the row of LEDs discharge on my bike real fast. So I took it to the shop, and Cameron took my word for it and dropped off a brand new battery the next day. Talk about excellent local service and turnaround time. Then as excited as I was, I went home and took the bike out for a spin and same thing happened. After feeling like I sort of misled them, I decided to take the whole bike back to the shop and let the shop deal with it. So the local bike shop, Myrons Extreme Machine, spent about an hour with me in his shop to diagnose it. We swapped throttle, controller, and finally after all the transplant from another bike he had, we quickly determined it was a bad motor. We called up Cameron and the bike shop got me another brand new motor and wheel the next day. So all in all, the problems were fixed fast and I got the parts the next day and installed at the shop. That's the service I love and I can see why now I paid a bit more money but I got great service. They even gave me a brand new rear tire for some reason.

There was nothing special about these motors. They are the standard issue Bafang BPM 48V500 watt that you can find on BMSbattery, elifebike, greenbikekit, and ebay. So the issue is not caused by Motiv. The issue is just a bad motor from Bafang, but Motiv was there to address the issue extremely fast.

The thing with Motiv is if the motor fails, they won't tear down the motor. They'll just replace the whole wheel with motor, and apparently a new tire too. lol

I talked to my local bike shop, Myrons Extreme Machine, and he says they can ship you the bike but it won't be assembled. But shipping cost will be high. You also might have an issue getting the lithium ion battery to shipped to you as it is very hard to ship by air. I suggest you try to find a local bike shop that deals with Motiv but try to find a shop that more specializes in electrical bikes like Myrons in Hawaii.

The Motiv is the ONLY bike that can do 25-27MPH factory standard for under $2 grand with all the features I explained with a 2-year warranty all-around and lifetime frame warranty. Everybody else like Specialized, Stromer ST1, Easy Motion, EG, Currie, are not using 48V system and some of those bikes cost over $3grand!

My original plan was to get a Mac motor kit from cell_man (em3ev) and convert my townie electra. It costed about $1800 USD including the 18.5Ah Samsung NCM triangle pack and the whole motor kit. Em3Ev makes you pay 3% for the paypal fee plus another 2.7% for the Hong Kong conversion fee. But we had shipping problems with the battery so I cancelled the order. But now that I think about it, I think I made the right decision with Motiv. When you go the DIY route, there is nearly very little recourse when something breaks. So you'll always be shelling out money overseas to get replacement parts and it will be arduous to convince the vendors that the components failed on their front. It becomes an expensive hobby. You should also know that when you get a battery pack shipped from Asia to the US, it is nearly impossible for you to ship it back to them in case it ever fails. There are IATA rules to shipping Lithium Ion batteries and if you're not on the approved vendor list or something, you can't ship it. That's why Em3Ev had problems trying to ship me that nice battery pack he sells. Unless you want to ship it back by boat which takes 2-3 months.

So paying the money up to a local manufacturer with a 2-year warranty in the US has already worked out real well for me. Replacement parts are fast. But just don't tinker with the parts and let your local bike shop deal with it. They will honor their warranty 100% as I've witnessed but just don't try to mess with the bike yourself. You paid top dollar for it so take it to the local bike dealer like a car and let them deal with it.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

Thanks for the great info re the issues, sounds like an isolated component problem. One of the main draw backs I saw with the Evovl bike (before I decided to try and buy one!) was the size of the triangle mount battery in the 15Ah version I wanted, seemed like it might make pedaling a bit more akward, but the Motiv battery location is great IMHO. I wanted the increased range the Evovl had, but I am seeing the same battery that is on the Motiv available for sale from many venders, so I am thinking just buying another battery would solve range issue while keeping 48v power without having the extra bulk of a 20Ah. http://www.ebay.com/itm/271266514073?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649. You seem to have had no issue with power or speed (granted you a bit lighter than my 250LBS). Last question: how is the seat comfort? I am looking at some nice Electra cruiser seats to swap out if needed. Long range= sore butt.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

why don't you lock this thread?

Mods like Wes.

 

[lbz5mc12]

This is all comparable to a drug dealer selling you drugs and making you sign a waiver. You can't sell something to someone knowing that it's illegal and think that by making the customer sign a waiver that it removes all liability on the part of the seller. However what a seller can and should do is assemble a manual on e-bike safety do's and don'ts, have the customer sign their copy of the manual as well as a copy of the manual that the seller keeps. This way if a legal issue should arise, they can bring the evidence that proves that they made the customer aware of the inherent dangers involved in operating an e-bike. Personally I don't think the court system honors waivers so much as an acceptance of responsibility on the part of both parties. You have to remember that judges have "guidelines" but in the end they make their own decisions.

 

[nukezero]

Thanks for the great info re the issues, sounds like an isolated component problem. One of the main draw backs I saw with the Evovl bike (before I decided to try and buy one!) was the size of the triangle mount battery in the 15Ah version I wanted, seemed like it might make pedaling a bit more akward, but the Motiv battery location is great IMHO. I wanted the increased range the Evovl had, but I am seeing the same battery that is on the Motiv available for sale from many venders, so I am thinking just buying another battery would solve range issue while keeping 48v power without having the extra bulk of a 20Ah. http://www.ebay.com/itm/271266514073?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649. You seem to have had no issue with power or speed (granted you a bit lighter than my 250LBS). Last question: how is the seat comfort? I am looking at some nice Electra cruiser seats to swap out if needed. Long range= sore butt.

Exactly! Motiv uses popular-sized components out of China so aftermarket support is there. I don't know how far you want to travel, range wise, but I traveled 14.5 miles and the battery still had a enough juice for another 5 miles easily. The 36V version has an extended range 15Ah that can go 25-35 miles easily.

Now, eventually you and I will probably upgrade to this when our warranty runs out. This battery is a whopping 20Ah 48V ! I'm hoping they'll drop the price later on. It is slightly longer but I did the measurements and it would seem like it would fit no problem. The casing dimensions are the same except It is about three inches taller but it should still clear the seat no problem, as I already did the measurements.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-20AH-Po...US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item35c9773785

Again, I like the clean-look (no ugly wires and battery bags) but at the same time good aftermarket support. The Motiv has all that.

Edit: If you like to keep the same dimension of the battery, they also offer a 48V 16Ah capacity. http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-16AH-Polymer-Lithium-Battery-Lockable-4-Electric-Bike-Up-Bottom-Discharging-/330953475872?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item4d0e5d4720 The height is only 390mm so that is extremely close to the stock Motiv battery height. The 20Ah is 480mm so it is 90mm taller which isn't so bad because if you're tall 5'10" or higher, you'll have to raise your seat by 2-3 inches anyways.

There, I just solved your problem of having a high capacity battery pack. I gave you two options. 20Ah or 16Ah or you can keep the factory standard 10Ah 48V.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

GREAT FINDS! Mahalo...