Favourite high power hub motor?

[MadRhino]

I am using Turnigy Graphene RC lipo. How I mount them on the DH frames was described many times before, so I just copy:

« I like frame bags, but not the triangle bags for they don’t fit on DH frames. I use top and down tube bags from Willier, small saddle bags from China, seat post bags and front bags (fork mount) from Axiom. Together, they can adapt to any DH frame, for batteries, tools, connections... And they keep the bicycle look to the bikes, much better than blocking the triangle. I build with modular batteries, 3 bags about 750Ah each RC lipo: One front that is always on, one top tube, one down tube, that are sometimes removed, swapped to another bike, assembled in different voltage series.,. Very flexible and practical system, that share common mounts on all my bikes. »

 

[Bullfrog]

Nice and thanks....IMO some people forget that you need more battery when you go to a more powerful motor, well if you want to ride for very long anyway :lol: .

 

[MadRhino]

Nice and thanks....IMO some people forget that you need more battery when you go to a more powerful motor, well if you want to ride for very long anyway :lol: .

The more power, the faster you ride, the better and bigger battery you need. Not only the battery, but just every component on your bike need to be up to the task, starting with the frame, the brakes, the suspension, the wheel build and tire grip... performance need to be much more than power alone, if you value your skin and bones.

 

[DogDipstick]

I have always wanted to try

Well, I got 'em.

A QSMOTOR, 4T V3 205.

An Ecospeed Mid drive. ..

..and..Finally.. My lil old Cromotor, that I always, wanted for some reason.

Ok....... Now what?

What do I have to do next, to have the most powerful ebike on the block, and retain that title for the rest of time?? Anybody?

Lol.

 

[Bullfrog]

I have always wanted to try

Well, I got 'em.

A QSMOTOR, 4T V3 205.

An Ecospeed Mid drive. ..

..and..Finally.. My lil old Cromotor, that I always, wanted for some reason.

Ok....... Now what?

What do I have to do next, to have the most powerful ebike on the block, and retain that title for the rest of time?? Anybody?

Lol.

How much voltage and amperage were you supplying to your QS and the Cromotor?

Which one did you like the best?

I wouldn't mind trying a big DD Hub motor at some point but right now I just ride around the neighborhood with a top speed of about 30 mph using my 10T MAC...if you only had a 52v/14s battery and could not supply more than ~55A the MAC will accelerate quicker than the big hubs but the MAC has a potential issue...it will over heat if you supply too much power for too long . Also the Grin Tech Motor Simulator does NOT account for everything including magnetic saturation so I used to think the MAC would beat the big hubs with higher voltage/amperage but the practical max voltage and amperage are roughly 60v and roughly 50-55 amps. Will the MAC work with higher voltage and amperage...absolutely but you will produce a lot of heat and not a lot more speed/torque. I came to the conclusions above experimentally after realizing the Motor Simulator's limitations.

 

[DogDipstick]

How much voltage and amperage were you supplying to your QS and the Cromotor?

Which one did you like the best?

The QS205 V3 is on my bike right now, on a Kelly KEB 72450, a 4.5kW controller with 105A contin battery and 160A peak phase current. It is great. Really on the verge of dangerous. Hits 55mph. Gets there really fast.

The Cro and the Eco are on the shelf waiting for their projects. The Cro bought off a member here, the Ecospeed motor I got off eBay. I haven't run them yet, but I have a Max-E for the Cro, and about four options to run the other one with.. A KLS, a KEB, a Infinion cheapo.. IDK what I am doing with it yet. . I might try to run my V3 QSMotor with the Adappto.

I am just excited because have seen all those old poster and the Cro on the dynos and I wanted a little of that. 10, 12, 13, 16 hp down to the back wheel.. Ect. Oh yeah its going on something soon. I have to work on a few things, like namely building the bike to suit. But I got it . That makes me happy enuf.

 

[Bullfrog]

How much voltage and amperage were you supplying to your QS and the Cromotor?

Which one did you like the best?

The QS205 V3 is on my bike right now, on a Kelly KEB 72450, a 4.5kW controller with 105A contin battery and 160A peak phase current. It is great. Really on the verge of dangerous. Hits 55mph. Gets there really fast.

The Cro and the Eco are on the shelf waiting for their projects. The Cro bought off a member here, the Ecospeed motor I got off eBay. I haven't run them yet, but I have a Max-E for the Cro, and about four options to run the other one with.. A KLS, a KEB, a Infinion cheapo.. IDK what I am doing with it yet. . I might try to run my V3 QSMotor with the Adappto.

I am just excited because have seen all those old poster and the Cro on the dynos and I wanted a little of that. 10, 12, 13, 16 hp down to the back wheel.. Ect. Oh yeah its going on something soon. I have to work on a few things, like namely building the bike to suit. But I got it . That makes me happy enuf.

Thanks for the info...sounds like fun .

 

[gobi]

What motor is being used with a Far Driver ND1081800?

 

[DogDipstick]

What motor is being used with a Far Driver ND1081800?

I got a friend who has a Nd 96850 on a QS V3 motor. He says "Its insane. I never knew that motor could pull like that" and he is the kind of guy with ten burnt stators in a trashcan sitting in the corner. This is the one I am considering purchasing, to see how it goes. I like trying things out until I am happy with the one I get that I like. .

He has the 1800A one too but that is gong to go on a big Yuma six phase scooter motor I think.. Some big thing with six phase wires sticking out of the side. Huge bearing plates with large ID bearings. Weird looking thing. He knows what he is doing though.

He lives in Canada. Crazy Canadian.

 

[kartethe31]

So what is it that Cromotor does if it is the same motor? I emailed them about cost and they say $400 for the motor and that it can run at 6000w for 120hrs without over heating.

get-mobdro.com

 

[DogDipstick]

So what is it that Cromotor does if it is the same motor? I emailed them about cost and they say $400 for the motor and that it can run at 6000w for 120hrs without over heating.

It has a MUCH stronger axle, Cro-Moly cut from a billet. The QS motor axle will cross thread easy.. and destroy the axle.. and many have broken the QS motor 205 axle while riding. The Cro's axle is strong as can be. No breaking this thing.

It is MUCH lighter, at 24 lbs (11kg) than a V3 QS motor at 28.6 Pounds ( 13kG). Some riders have even lighted them more on a lathe to sub 20 lb. by cutting off extra steel off the casing.

Can handle 2x the continuous power of the QS V3 ( as rated by the manuf) .

Has thinner lamination to keep eddy current heating to a minimum. The stator lamination’s are made with a high quality silicon steel and also have a little more copper fill ( deeper tooth to fill) . This all translates into a more efficient cooler running motor.

Inductance measured it at 145uH (Higher efficiency on low speeds and higher speed)

...Is cheaper, apparently... .

...has physically smaller ( solid copper ) phase lines than the QS V3 ( that has stranded phase lines).

...has a really cool name ( The " Hubzilla"... )

Totally different side covers and axle bearing mounting. It looks much different between the two.

This is what I have noticed as primary differences between my two motor, the QSv3 and the Cromotor. The wire exit is the same as the V3.. but not the V4i. V4i is different wire exit.

 

[E-HP]

I have always wanted to try

Well, I got 'em.

A QSMOTOR, 4T V3 205.

An Ecospeed Mid drive. ..

..and..Finally.. My lil old Cromotor, that I always, wanted for some reason.

Ok....... Now what?

What do I have to do next, to have the most powerful ebike on the block, and retain that title for the rest of time?? Anybody?

Lol.

What are those sleeves on the spokes for?

 

[gobi]

DogDipstick,
6 phase motor, wow,

it will be perfect for a Can Am style trike!

Nd 96850 looks beefy enough for most mortals,

Is Aliexpress the only outlet to get fardriver controllers?

 

[gobi]

so is Cromotor the shizzle?

I have been eyeing Eastwood's build and 205 50h is calling my name possibly,

Is Cromotor only sold by the manufacturer?

 

[DogDipstick]

I have been eyeing Eastwood's build and 205 50h is calling my name possibly,

Is Cromotor only sold by the manufacturer?

My motor is not 6 phase. John in CR modifies his Cromotors to make them 6 phase..... the one I have, and refer to, is 3 phase. My friend in Canada bought his Yuma scooter motor, it is 6 phase, stock.

Here is the seller of the Cro.
https://www.zelenavozila.com/cromotor


There is a debate as t which is better., I think they both are very meaty motors. I scoured all the ES info for the last two weeks and I have found that MANY have dynoed the Cromotor with anywhere from 13-16 horsepower to the back wheel. I believe this is also possible with the QS motor. Both can handle 15kW controllers.

Go for it. There were many talking bout them back in the day. Everyone ( Luke, Methods, Dr Bass) had one at one time or another. i really just follow the path they carved out. There are like ten threads with Cromotor dynos in them. 10hop and more... 12, 13, 14hp.. ., down, to the ground, after losses..... that is alot for a small ev motor.

First was the Cro.. but then the V3 205 kinda took over as King... Cro heyday was really 2012-2017ish. From the 5400 Crystalite motors, they wanted something else, better, lighter, and the Cromotor guys built it and began selling them. THEN later the V3 205 came out, from what I read form old posters.

I run my QS 205 on a 4500w contin controller, it is more than enough for me and very economical. I get 13 miles in 15 min on a 1270wh 15.5Ah battery @ 72v. Sure, i could put a 14kW controller there... but.. lose all efficiency and treat the motor really hard? Get 6 miles for my 1270wH? nah. I am very happy with this measly 4.5kW contin controller on my qs205V3. It peaks at 12kW. It goes hard enough to severely damage yourself. Pick up the front wheel on a whim type of power.

 

[onespeed]

It's important to keep in mind if you're not proficient on a motorcycle (and maybe even if you are) you will find even the 205 / cromotor extremely intimidating on a decent controller. Not only because they make a boatload of torque from idle but also because bicycle wheelbases are pretty short so it will be less stable against wheelies under acceleration.

In other words if you have no experience with anything that has high power and a twist throttle you'll probably crash the bike straight away or loop out when you first accelerate due to whisky throttle.

That is what happened to Simon Cowell. He paid for a top of the line bike that he did not realize had crazy acceleration. Broke his back.

 

[Eastwood]

so is Cromotor the shizzle?

I have been eyeing Eastwood's build and 205 50h is calling my name possibly,

Is Cromotor only sold by the manufacturer?

Go for it, QS 205 50h V3 :thumb:
It’s a great performing motor. Do you plan on just commuting with your Enduro build or do you plan on doing some off-road? If you do plan on doing any off-road I would absolutely recommend varnishing the motor. If you’re not riding off-road or in moist conditions you’ll probably be OK without any varnish. I’ve had several hub motors that never rusted but the second I start taking them off road they rust quickly. Although my mxus 3k never rusted with off-road riding and I even rode in the rain serval times on trails.

 

[gobi]

so is Cromotor the shizzle?

I have been eyeing Eastwood's build and 205 50h is calling my name possibly,

Is Cromotor only sold by the manufacturer?

Go for it, QS 205 50h V3 :thumb:
It’s a great performing motor. Do you plan on just commuting with your Enduro build or do you plan on doing some off-road? If you do plan on doing any off-road I would absolutely recommend varnishing the motor. If you’re not riding off-road or in moist conditions you’ll probably be OK without any varnish. I’ve had several hub motors that never rusted but the second I start taking them off road they rust quickly. Although my mxus 3k never rusted with off-road riding and I even rode in the rain serval times on trails.

So I reached out to Cromotor and
Cromotor's response - they have nothing in stock, so they are out.
Ah, interesting history and builds. I will probably pick up one cromotor when they are back in stock.

Enduro - I like the battery cavity and the proper rear swing arm, I got tired of looking at FB FS DH overpriced stuff.

Use - maybe some sand action, no commuting for me, my office is 1100 miles from my residence but mostly putzing around my neighborhood and impress the 5 year old kids around the block .

Fork - I am looking at light dirt bike forks to retro fit into the enduro frame.

Thanks, I need to pick up a can of the varnish from grainger, need to combo the order with the aluminum stock to build a platform in my van.
I don't plan on riding in the rain but I think I will spray the inside of all the ebike motors I have.

 

[Bullfrog]

so is Cromotor the shizzle?

I have been eyeing Eastwood's build and 205 50h is calling my name possibly,

Is Cromotor only sold by the manufacturer?

Go for it, QS 205 50h V3 :thumb:
It’s a great performing motor. Do you plan on just commuting with your Enduro build or do you plan on doing some off-road? If you do plan on doing any off-road I would absolutely recommend varnishing the motor. If you’re not riding off-road or in moist conditions you’ll probably be OK without any varnish. I’ve had several hub motors that never rusted but the second I start taking them off road they rust quickly. Although my mxus 3k never rusted with off-road riding and I even rode in the rain serval times on trails.

So I reached out to Cromotor and
Cromotor's response - they have nothing in stock, so they are out.
Ah, interesting history and builds. I will probably pick up one cromotor when they are back in stock.

Enduro - I like the battery cavity and the proper rear swing arm, I got tired of looking at FB FS DH overpriced stuff.

Use - maybe some sand action, no commuting for me, my office is 1100 miles from my residence but mostly putzing around my neighborhood and impress the 5 year old kids around the block .

Fork - I am looking at light dirt bike forks to retro fit into the enduro frame.

Thanks, I need to pick up a can of the varnish from grainger, need to combo the order with the aluminum stock to build a platform in my van.
I don't plan on riding in the rain but I think I will spray the inside of all the ebike motors I have.

gobi...a little off the topic of this thread but if you want acceleration, a MAC will give you more than the big DD hubs but if you want speed and/or longer distances without over heating, then the Direct Drive Hub motor is the way to go. The MAC does it mainly by having a 5:1 gear reduction which also give you a 5X torque multiplication and thrust/acceleration is proportional to the torque your motor can produce.

Don't forget you are going to need a battery capable of feeding the amps you need for a DD hub motor...that means either a very large Li Ion or a Li Po battery.

 

[gobi]

Bullfrog,

I am salt/fresh water fisherman, fishing is a monkey see, monkey do sport.

So, for me, a newbie, ebiking has parallels to fishing, lol.

This has turned for me to a want thing more than a need thing now.

Yes SIr, I have 2 bafang 1000w geared hubs, g062, one laced and one I am going to lace probably.
But I am have been keenly following Eastwood's build and Dog and others input on DD hubs,

Off the line torque for DD's has been an item I have been pondering about. My experience with a 750w DD 9C motor has been dismal till now.

I am inclining towards a 205 50h v3 in 6T, I am not interested in high speed but low end torque for bit mixed riding.

Back on MAC motor:
Which MAC motor would you suggest and where can I get one?

 

[LCLabs]

so is Cromotor the shizzle?

I have been eyeing Eastwood's build and 205 50h is calling my name possibly,

Is Cromotor only sold by the manufacturer?

Go for it, QS 205 50h V3 :thumb:
It’s a great performing motor. Do you plan on just commuting with your Enduro build or do you plan on doing some off-road? If you do plan on doing any off-road I would absolutely recommend varnishing the motor. If you’re not riding off-road or in moist conditions you’ll probably be OK without any varnish. I’ve had several hub motors that never rusted but the second I start taking them off road they rust quickly. Although my mxus 3k never rusted with off-road riding and I even rode in the rain serval times on trails.

Your build inspired me to get the 6t QS205 (but mine is in a 17" moto wheel). I've been looking at a couple mxus 3k for something a little lighter for different builds. Do you have any comments on the comparison between the 205 and 3k?

 

[amberwolf]

Off the line torque for DD's has been an item I have been pondering about. My experience with a 750w DD 9C motor has been dismal till now.

If it's startup torque you're after, just put a bigger controller (higher phase amps, which means higher battery amps, and thus may need a better battery) on the existing motor. What controller is on there now, and what is it's current limit? Get one that is twice that, and the motor will "wake up" but it will also greatly increase the heating of the motor during the times it uses that extra power. For best control, get an FOC controller that uses "torque control" throttle method (all of them should, but....).

When riding on the flats at your normal speeds it won't use any more power than it did before; just when it's under conditions that require more power will the motor draw more from the controller and battery.

Same advice for any motor you want more torque from...make sure the controller can supply plenty of current to it, and that the battery can supply more than the controller needs in order to do this. (so it doesnt' sag in voltage; the less sag the more watts to the wheel).

 

[liveforphysics]

To share my $0.02 on my favorite hubmotor, it's objective opinion because I didn't have access to a dynamometer at that time.

JohninCR's hubmonster impressed me the most of any hubmotor. This is because I could power up hilly mountain passes in highway traffic at +65-70mph uphill for extended periods, and pullover and feel the motor shell and magnet ring and axle and feel them just warm, but able to leave my hand on them. I don't have dyno data for it, but it had starting torque to wheelie out from under you, with a top speed higher than I wanted to find out (in limited motorcycle riding armor), and it sipped watts when cruising at a useful speed. I don't know if they weigh less or more than a 273mm.

The 273mm got me excited from Jackson Edward's (Farfle) amazing custom double wide magic pie on a Sevcon with big phase current. It would kick the rear wheel like a 450cc dirtbike clutch drop, but it also would get hot road racing at that power after a few laps. It took a good deal of cooling to run continously high power, but this motor had some eddy current stator iron loops and was a DIY build that could be optimized.

Radius is so useful in a motors ability to make torque. However, more motor weight sucks in riding manners for a bicycle.

It would be fantastic to pay someone who's clever with a lathe and mill to take the 273mm sized stator or JohninCR hubmonster, and give them the ultra lightweight treatment like the Grin all axle with webbed side plates and large hollow axle with bearing phase lead exit. Maybe Mumetal magnetic back iron and/or thin magnet hallbach array rotor to shave rotor mass. The stator and axle can be made a ton lighter.

If going that far though, using the beautiful magnetics Miles created for a hubmotor I think is the best I've ever seen and could yield >95% and lower motor mass.

 

[Bullfrog]

Bullfrog,

I am salt/fresh water fisherman, fishing is a monkey see, monkey do sport.

So, for me, a newbie, ebiking has parallels to fishing, lol.

This has turned for me to a want thing more than a need thing now.

Yes SIr, I have 2 bafang 1000w geared hubs, g062, one laced and one I am going to lace probably.
But I am have been keenly following Eastwood's build and Dog and others input on DD hubs,

Off the line torque for DD's has been an item I have been pondering about. My experience with a 750w DD 9C motor has been dismal till now.

I am inclining towards a 205 50h v3 in 6T, I am not interested in high speed but low end torque for bit mixed riding.

Back on MAC motor:
Which MAC motor would you suggest and where can I get one?

MAC motors...I'd go with either a 12T or a 10T. If you go with an 8T or a 6T, you can easily have over heating problems if you don't limit the phase amperage to the motor and if you limit the phase amperage you will not be able to go as fast so I see no advantage to the either the 8T or the 6T. Laced in a 26" wheel, and using a 14s/52v battery, you will have a top speed of about 24-25 mph with the 12T and about 27-28 mph with the 10T...on level ground.

If you go with the GMAC 10T that Grin Tech sells, you can also have regen.

Any geared hub motor will over heat easier than a Direct Drive motor so I'd recomend a Cycle Analyst and monitor the internal temperature. You can run a MAC/GMAC up to 150C without any damage but I wouldn't exceed 150C...I program my CA (Cycle Analyst) to start rolling back the power at 130C and shut the power off at 140C just to be safe. You shouldn't get that hot unless you ride up a fairly long hill. With the MAC/GMAC, I have run ~4,000 watts or 60A battery and ~200A phase current using my 14s6p battery with 18650 -25R cells and an Infineon 12 FET controller. BUT you don't get much of an increase in torque/thrust once you exceed about 160A phase current so I'd limit it to 160A so it is a little easier on your controller.

The advantage of a MAC/GMAC is torque/thrust/acceleration at speeds below about 15 mph. Plus the MAC is smaller and much lighter than any of the DD motors being discussed. For very short periods of time you can pump massive power to the MAC..."short" is inversely proportional to the "amperage"...I like to use Amps instead of Watts since it is the amperage that determines the heating and not the Watts or the Volts.

The disadvantage is the potential for overheating. You can run roughly 1,000 watts continuously without worrying about over heating but once you reach steady state, which takes about 40 minutes, you can't go over 1,000 watts for long or the motor gets too hot. Take a close look at the Grin Tech GMAC web page...the MAC and the GMAC are very very similar so any guidance on watts/amperage will apply to both motors: https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-kits/gmac.html.

If you want something light that puts out a lot of torque and allows you to use a smaller battery...a MAC or GMAC may be your best bet.

Although I rave about a MAC, if you want something that is extremely reliable, very forgiving, can exceed 30 mph, and that you can ride for long periods of time without ever worrying about over heating...go with a Direct Drive motor.

Use the Grin Tech Motor Simulator to see how motors compare. You can change all the parameters and get an idea on torque, speed, acceleration, over heating, etc. It is a very useful tool: https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html.

 

[Eastwood]

Your build inspired me to get the 6t QS205 (but mine is in a 17" moto wheel). I've been looking at a couple mxus 3k for something a little lighter for different builds. Do you have any comments on the comparison between the 205 and 3k?

Hey that’s great to hear, I’m glad my build inspired you for the 6T :thumb:

The mxus 3k motor Is also a great option for a lighter weight set up. That being said it definitely cannot handle nowhere near the power levels of the QS205. I was able to push it at 60 DC amps and sometimes 80 for very short periods but it would get really hot. Definitely grab you some hubs sinks and statoraid for the mxus 3k If you plan on pushing anything over 50-ish DC amps.

In comparison between the two hub motors nothing really compares to the QS205 that I’ve tried even though the MX US has great torque output it’s just not the same monster as the QS205. But yeah it’s a great option for lighter weight set ups, especially mountain bike frames.