First e-bike for city commute, need you help, many decisions

[egosphere]

Hi ES.

First timer here looking to electrify my bike.

I recently moved to LA and refuse to commute by car. Living previously in Boston, I transported myself everywhere on a conventional bike. But distances are much greater here so I want to electrify my bike to transform it into a commuting vehicle.

First let me outline my needs. My commute is ~10 miles each way, with one of the ways having a ~350-foot climb overall, of which 250 feet is steady climb over the last 0.6 miles. My route goes through city streets with traffic and lights. It's paved but there are potholes. I can charge at each end if necessary. I weigh 160 lb and am physically able but want my commute to be easy, sweat-free, and fun. Unfortunately, I'm not really sure what this means in terms of speed, but more power is always better and more fun. My budget is $500-700 for electrifying with a strong desire to cut costs wherever possible but willing to spend a little more to get quality.

Before considering the option of electrifying, I've already purchased and built a chromoly-frame city bike with an 8-speed internal gear hub (IGH) because I prefer IGH in conventional urban bikes due to their no-fuss nature. The bike is the Windsor Kensington from Bikedirect (http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/kensington8.htm) and it's equipped with a Shimano Nexus 8 IGH.

As far as I understand, the IGH on the rear wheel precludes rear-wheel hub motors as an option (it might also preclude disc brakes; right now it has front and back rim brakes; is this ok?). So I'm left with the options of a front-wheel hub motor or mid-drive motor unless I get a new bike or convert this one to derailleur gears (tell me if this is absolutely necessary). If hub motor, I'm not sure if I should get a geared motor or direct drive. As I understand it, a geared motor would be lighter, the sound of which I like and I think I'll sacrifice top speed for that. For mid-drive motor, I understand there are some complications with an IGH since they can't take all the torque from the engine, but mid-drive's power and lightness seem appealing. I read that with a mid-drive, I have to be careful to kill the motor when changing gears (by feathering the brake or wiring in a button switch). This sounds fine for me -- I'm sure I'll get used to that, like driving a stick -- as long as the Nexus 8 can even withstand the torque while not shifting. What kind of motor would you recommend? What power specs? Where would be the most economical place to procure this motor and associated components? I'm ok with waiting for shipping.

For battery, I think I'll stay away from heavy SLAs. I'm also a little scared of lipos burning down the place -- am I right to be? I understand that lifepo4 is overall preferable but I'm not sure what the real difference between li-ion and lifepo4 is. I've read that sun-thing28 on ebay is a reliable vendor of lifepo4 packs and I've seen 48V15AH packs from him for ~$330 shipped. I saw em3ev and ping are also recommended but more expensive. There's also hobbyking. If I go with hobbyking, I will have to combine a few smaller packs into a reasonable pack for ebiking, right? One thing I don't understand is how I can transform 6.6v packs into a 48v pack since putting 6 of these in series gives 46.2v and 7 gives 52.8v -- is voltage approximate or does it need to be exact?

I'm very happy to make this a little summer project for me and put together some of these things myself. I'm only wary of getting in over my head and destroying parts I paid good money for.

Thanks so much for your help. I am really excited to join the community of electric bicyclists!

 

[motomech]

Yeah, you should have run this by us before you bought that bike, it's all wrong for city commuting.
What's important for 25 mph to 30 mph urban fighting is brakes, suspension and power. And for most of us, that means used mountain bike with Hyd. brakes and at least telescopic forks.
And for most of us who ride in that element, we hardly shift gears at all. I usually use 3 gears on my 2WD Rocky Mountain.
You don't want a mid drive and since you are stuck with a frt. mount, that means low power, something like a small geared "mini-motor" on 48 Volts and a sub 20 Amp controller. That would mean a top speed of 20 to 22 mph, probably as fast as you will want to go on that frame.
Lipo from Hk is not a chemistry for commuting.
What you will want is a Li-on "plug and play", like something listed here;
https://bmsbattery.com/71-48v-li-ion
Match the style battery to your frame style.
You can get everything from this vendor, I would suggest the Q100H frt. mount motor.
You can use that name for a search here and lot's of info will come up.

 

[egosphere]

Hi motomech. Thanks for your response. Why would I be stuck with front mount for mid drive? A mid-drive motor would run my rear IGH if I understand correctly. Maybe I didn't understand what you wrote.

 

[motomech]

I haven't used a mid drive, but from what I understand, it hasn't been shown to be as reliable as a hub motor, an important consideration for a commuter.
Perhaps someone with experience with mid drives will chime in.
My main point being that the right Frt. hub motor/controller/battery combo will get you to 20 mph, while still climbing your hills.
That would be the Q100H (201 wind), 17 Amp controller and a 48V battery.
I'm thinking 20 mph is as fast as you will want to go in traffic with rim brakes and ridgid frame.
Could be a matter of how tuff you are.

 

[d8veh]

If you get a mid drive, you'll be limited to a low power one because those sort of hub gears will break if you put too much torque through them. Also, the motor runs on for a bit after you stop pedalling, so you'll be trying to change gear under load all the time, which won't work. Most OEMs won't use hub-gears on their 250w crank-drives.

It would probably be better and cheaper to buy a new bike and start again. You should get a bike with a decent size triangle in the frame, disc brakes and suspension forks.

 

[dogman dan]

Right, he could use the lower wattage Bafang, but I'd be hesitant to run a 48v battery through the BBs02 version.

Not sure if the IGH could handle the 36v, about 750w bbso2. But the S01 would be ok I think.

The other option would be a front hub. I forget the name of the two speed one at the moment. Or just a front Mac, or something similar.

I tend to agree, the skinny tire 700c rim great for pedaling, but a frame that allows a fatter 26" tire is better. Which leads me to my favorite bit of advice, "don't ruin your favorite bike with a motor".

Budget way too small. $1200-$1500 for a great commuter, not including the bike. 7 speed rear derailleur, which you will never shift anyway, and a rear 1000w internal geared motor. Mac, Ezee, Ebikekit, Bafang, etc. Get a good, 48v battery of at least 10 ah. Or, if you like mid drive, all you need is a derailleur bike. Mid drive you will shift a lot.

The hill will be a piece of cake either way, and the distance no problem. The real issue is pounding the crap out of wheels on potholes and such. Lots of reasons to consider a bike with at least front shocks, possibly full suspension, cushier tires, or a longtail.

 

[melodious]

Find wider tire choice, if you can fit 2" that would help. Not the most aggressive bike you have there for weaving through dense traffic, but once up to speeds past 20mph more aggressive maneuvers open up, because the space between cars open as well. Hehe, I wouldn't necessarily write this bike off. It's a solid 25mph capable bike, but @25-30mph your going to need your head right. At these suggested speeds, were walking the line between a bike that deserves the full lane and letting more powerful vehicles pass (believe me, they will want to pass given the chance).

500w rated 36v BBS system should treat your IGH fine. You'll be shifting a lot due to the stop & go nature of your commute.

A front geared motor like the ones previously mentioned is a solid contender. Your literally getting 2wd traction off the line, the front motor and your pedal input from the rear wheel. A dry climate like LA, it would shine, though care should be taken on wetter days. The motor spin could cause you to wipeout on a slippery surface, even sand.

Personally, if I lived in your area with the same bike I'd choose the front geared motor option. I'd up my initial investment to acquire a nicer battery package that would fit in that frame. Your car free already, so have enough battery to see all of the city, not just your commute. There are 16Ah water bottle style batteries using current battery chemistry to buy. On a fit rider, that mixes physical riding and power assist, it's an easy 50 miles of range at least.

Are you still reading this? Get started already! :lol: JK. Keep reading the threads. You'll learn a lot. But it is easy to become couch locked in ES admiring all the available information here.

 

[egosphere]

Thank you everyone for your helpful feedback. I'm a bit discouraged you think my bike is not very convertible. I'll try to make the most of it. I'm surprised everyone is so hesitant about the IGH. I've seen others use them with mid-drives (this guy http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=60785 has a 750W BBS02 with the same Nexus 8 IGH as mine). I'm wary of spending a lot of money on something that won't fit my needs or fit them but not perfectly and I'd want to replace it soon. I feel like getting a BBS02 is future proof because I can always take it out and put it on a MTB instead. But maybe BBS02 + Nexus is just a nonstarter and these guys who do it have a lot of spare time and money to fix their broken IGHs? Also 700x35 seems very wide to me because I've been riding 700x25 throughout the city previously. But I can definitely see how 2" could be more comfortable when cruising at 25mph. If mid-drive is out of the question (still not convinced though) I guess I'll go with front hub motor. Is the problem with front motor that you don't get the same power as rear or just that at the same power it's harder to handle/slips?

 

[motomech]

I would deffinately heed Dave's(D8veh) advice on the mid-drive. He has build every type Ebike there is and test ridden the rest. He really knows what will work and what won't.
And, yes, there is a limit of the power you can run on the frt. At around 800 Watts, the tire can spin on less the perfect pavement, or, if you hit the throttle with the cocked, it can put you down, etc.
I think what we are trying to impart, is that there is commuting and then there is commuting.
If you wanted to strictly tip-toe around, taking it extra slow and careful, your bike will be fine.
But that is hard to do in traffic, day in and day out.
There will be times when you are running late and you won't see that new pot hole, or you will get cutoff, or any number of things.
It's a rough World commuting in traffic and you need an extra strong doner bike to give you all the help you can get.

 

[wesnewell]

It looks like that bike has a steel frame and dropouts. I'd just get a 26" FS bike with steel dropouts fpr $100 and be done with it, but there shouldn't be a problem converting that bike with a rear motor with a single speed freewheel. Being steel, you can widen the dropouts as much as you want. So all you need is a 700C rear motor kit kit and a battery pack. All I use is rc lipo. Never had a problem in 4+ years and over 15K miles. I'd suggest a 10ah 20C 12s lipo pack with bms. Total cost would be about $500 including misc. stuff. That would get you ~30mph top speed and plenty of battery for one way. Go under 20mph and it could get you 20 miles.

 

[egosphere]

Ok. Thanks for the wise advice re commuting. You're definitely right.

And thanks wesnewell for the suggested work around. Think I'm gonna go with that. Where could I get all that for $500 inclusive? Thanks again.

 

[Ykick]

Kinda similar to these I put together in the past year:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49889&hilit

Scroll to pg 2 and pg 3 for another. The entire system and 10-15 mile range RC Lipo w/BMS adds roughly 12lbs. Cost under $600 including Lyen controller (luxury item) and CAV2 (required equipment).

Modest 800-900W battery current. You don’t have to pedal but they’re better if you do.

You mention Boston so I get that you’re into a more “city” style bike. Dunno how that will work in LA but give it a try and see?

I currently ride 3 very different “types” of eBike and they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Road eBike like the one you’re contemplating. 40-50lbs (depends on donor frame)

Folding eBike - Swift Folder - 37lbs

Mountain (mini-moto) eBike - Cannondale Super V900 full suspension, hydro brakes, 2kW, 30MPH, etc.- 70lbs

Best thing IMO is to keep it cheap enough to have more than one. Then you’ll be able to dial-in exactly what works best for your situation and expectations. Have a spare when tires go flat or systems burn. And, be able to invite a friend to go for a ride...

 

[Avitt]

I read your opening post, and noticed a lot of similarities with my own situation, namely:

• I live in Socal as well (Orange County)
• I also moved out from New England (Rhode Island), although I did it over 20 yrs ago
• I commute a similar distance to work (9.1 miles, one-way)
• The altitude difference between my home and work is 322 ft
• I also wanted to commute without sweating too much, and have fun doing it
• I also like Internal Gear Hubs, and have a Nexus 8
• I'm also riding an unsuspended bike, with rim brakes

If you'd like see my solution, it's detailed here:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=58335

I bought the parts just before the Bafang mid-drives hit the market. But I've been extremely happy with my front-drive build.

I'm also in the process of building an ebike for my wife. For her, I'm planning to use a 500W mid-drive, and a Nexus 3 hub. I'm going to use a Gearsensor on hers, since she's not a frequent rider, and I don't want her to have to think about too much.

 

[egosphere]

For everyone who posted $ dollar amounts (Ykick & wesnewell), could you please post links to vendors/product pages? Thanks! And thanks for the advice.

Thanks for the input, Avitt. It seems you were in a very similar situation as me. It is very encouraging to read about your build! Question: in hindsight, with the bafang middrives available now, would you have opted for that? (Before purchasing your Patterson transmission, that is.) Interesting you're choosing IGH+middrive when building a bike with electric in mind from the start. I hear everyone's advice and I know they REALLY know what they're talking about but I can't get the fantasy of a middrive out of my head now. Is it really fantasy? The gearsensor sounds like a great idea. Have you tried it before? The suspension seat post also seems like a great idea.

 

[melodious]

A nice simple chainline is exactly that, nice. No dérailleur adjustments, weather resistance, a large gear ratio equivalent to a triple crank setup. Just keep the power down to 750w and under so you don't sheer anything inside. You will need to learn how to depower & upshift, which is a fairly easy technique.

But don't underestimate a traditional deraileur system with a BBS middrive. I've changed from a 20" wheeled Nexus 7 IGH to a 26" wheeled 7 speed (w/mega range gear for hill climbing), and it's working flawlessly. I'm shifting under power too, though I think I'm subconsciously decreasing the amount of power I input during a shift from having the BBS on an IGH. I'll ride the bike again and consciously think what's happening with the rider input, motor, & drivetrain.

 

[Avitt]

Thanks for the input, Avitt. It seems you were in a very similar situation as me. It is very encouraging to read about your build! Question: in hindsight, with the bafang middrives available now, would you have opted for that? (Before purchasing your Patterson transmission, that is.) Interesting you're choosing IGH+middrive when building a bike with electric in mind from the start. I hear everyone's advice and I know they REALLY know what they're talking about but I can't get the fantasy of a middrive out of my head now. Is it really fantasy? The gearsensor sounds like a great idea. Have you tried it before? The suspension seat post also seems like a great idea.

You're welcome! Hope it helps you.

If i had built this a few months later, I would have certainly gone with the 750W BBS, and a "bottle" battery. It would be an easier and cleaner looking build, with better weight distribution. I understand from others that the performance would be very similar to what I have now. But with everything dialed in like it is, I have no desire to change.

For my wife, I'm building a Dutch style city bike. I think the mid drive will give it a nice unobtrusive look, with the the battery hidden in a rear basket. I use about 5 of my 8 rear gears regularly, because I shift often to maintain cadence. But for her, I think three speeds are plenty.

I haven't tried the gearsensor before. I understand that the main complaint is that the BBS system's brake cutouts are too slow to resume power, so there is a bit of s lag with the gearsensor.

 

[wesnewell]

Look at all the post in this thread. Note the Location of everyone. Now look at your post and note there is no Location. Now read this.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302

 

[cwah]

Get a nice dual suspension comfy bike for the distance you want to travel

 

[egosphere]

wesnewell, sorry about that slip. I did read that post you linked but my eyes glossed over the location part. Hope that helps suggest vendors.

Avitt, thanks again for the input. Thanks, melodious. So IGH+middrive is not a fantasy! (Maybe only in my budget but I'm excited enough now to spend a bit more.) Think I'll go with a middrive. See how it goes. Chromoly steel should provide sufficient suspension for now (I think a lot of the suspension lovers are just too used to aluminum). I'll definitely report back and share my experience. My thinking is, I'll start with this and then maybe in the future take it off and slap it on a new MTB later on when I'm ready to upgrade. Just hope it's easy to de-electrify a bike...

 

[Lurkin]

I've read through the thread despite being told multiple times a full suspension bike with disc brakes is a better idea, you were only really receptive to motorising the current bike you have. For the record, I'm in agreement. I've been down the 'I'll just motorise what I've got' and have learnt it can be done, just usually turns out that it could have been better.

It would have been a better to start the thread with what you actually want- motorising your current bike.

If you are sticking with it:-
- have a look at the width of the rear part of the frame to work out the maximum width tyre you can sneak in there. Running a fatter tyre will allow you to use it as rear suspension and it's probably the easiest/cheapest solution.
- rear suspension seat posts can be a bit hit and miss. The cheaper stuff tends to be rubbish. I would look to the thudbuster series type. I think Suntour also made a competitor product of it which was cheaper and considered better by those that used it. I haven't used one, so can't say its better. I may be looking into one of these myself at some stage.
- if you don't have one already a nice saddle can also compensate, consider one. There are gel covers out there too. I think I had a cheapo gel cover from fleabay which was ok, but a replacement decent saddle was better. The more expensive bike shops will measure your cheekbones and recommend a saddle the correct width which tends to be far more comfortable than the generic rubbish they sell on bikes.
- I think those bikes look very nice given their kinda vintage appeal, which I think would look weird with some mid drives. Probably stick to a front drive motor - which I'm not a great fan of for reasons already stated in this thread.

It's much easier to decide what you want to use a bike for, then design the whole lot at once for a better overall result....

 

[dogman dan]

No reason you can't just put a geared front motor on your existing bike. Ride it till the harsher ride bothers you. Then if you choose to switch bikes and go with a rear motor, all you need to buy is the motor itself. All I meant was that next bike, you might want a different choice, that rides more comfy. I went through 4 bikes in the first year I commuted. The bike I settled on was a very good quality full suspension bike. Other fs choices just wore out fast. Now, I ride longtails for comfort and the ability to carry a lot. But the ride need is different. I don't commute anymore, but ride for groceries a lot.

800w is not the limit for front hub, but you will wear out tires fast if you run 48v-1000w. At 3000w, a front hub is downright dangerous.
at 4000w, insane. But a 1000w front hub just needs a tire more often, and don't grab throttle hard in corners.

Personally, I would not do a daily commute with RC batteries. Bear in mind, I have a ton of them. But they are a bit of a hazard around the house, and I much preferred doing a commute with a batter I could plug in, and go to sleep. What a nightmare it would be if your battery caught fire at work, even worse if it burned an apartment down.

Money is not everything. Charging twice a day, I'd hate to have to watch them as closely as I have to watch my Hobby King stuff. Commuting on lipo would stress me out big time. Spend the money on a good bms equipped battery. EM3ev, Grin, or even Cali battery.

 

[Ykick]

Sources are/were BMS Battery (watch out for shipping costs) for the loose motor (lace your own, chinese wheel builds suck) and 400W Alloy charger - $220. Lyen (ES member) for controller - $100. Grin for CAV2 - $125. Bestechpower BMS - $45 (had to buy 2qty for $90). Hobby King RC Lipo - $110. Niagara Cycle for rim - $30. Danscomp 13/14 butted spokes - $20.

A little over $600 but I wasn’t trying for cheapest anything. A person could find cheaper controller and leave the CA off and be around $500-$600 component cost. Although I mentioned it as “required” CA isn’t actually required but it’s great damn product and every eBike should have one. Right donor bike you could reuse rims.

I wasn’t putting it out there to duplicate - I’ve never assembled the same bike twice. But the point is there’s different styles of commuter bikes that can be assembled (I don’t use the term “build” unless it involves cutting, forming & welding).

Some eBikes can actually be pedaled. Some can fold and stash in a corner. While some are basically mini-motorcycles.

RC Lipo days are probably numbered with the advent of supposedly “safer” battery packs. Although it’s hard to break an old habit when (after the initial investment in BMS and chargers) it can replace 300Wh @ compact 5 lbs for $110 shipped.

BTW, mid drive on that Windsor bike will probably require removing the chain guard. Good luck...