First ebike, Questions? Cyclone?

[halfawake454]

Hey, so I am new to the whole ebike scene. Recently, I bought a bike for commuting. I ride a few miles to school somtimes, but the thing is when I get there I am sweaty and gross and I don't feel like doing class, so I end up driving anyway. I thought about actually getting a scooter, but it is a still too much of a waste of money if i have a to pay insurance, so I am not going that route. I started looking at ebikes and had seen some pretty fast ones people had built on youtube. The problem is a lot of the stuff was really expensive, but recently I found the cyclone-tw.com site and was looking at their 750W 3 chainwheel kit. On the site is mentions that it is capable of doing 60km/h and after emailing them and asking questions about different kits they mentioned the 750W kit would go 65km/h. It just feels like they are making it sound faster than it really would go. I wanted to get opinions of people here who know about ebikes and possibly the cyclone kits. Would this go the speeds they are claiming or are they just lying to get a sale? I don't want it to sound like I'm a speed demon and nothing else matter, but the matter is I want to get to school and back to my apartment quickly without tiring myself out.

The thing is it feels like a waste of money to me if I don't get something that goes 30mph+ because as of now, everyday on my bike i can get up to 27mph and keep that speed for a pretty good distance. Feels like I am wasting money if I get motor that can't do at least what I am able to.

So please, answer my questions about the speed and anything else about the kit that you think might be work mentioning.

 

[Scorefield]

You can have a 750W kit that goes 60, but you can also have a 750W kit that goes 65 like you said,the diffrense would be in the controller that will give more V and A, but if you ask me then I would say that chain would be to noisy...and since you want something that you would like to be glad for in the furture then I will stick to a rear hub or try with a belt insted of chain.

65 is pretty fast on a average bike and this will also cost to buy alittle safety wich can not be argued..you go 65 and next month you want maybe 75 and also need a more powerfull battery wich needs to be a smaller pack then the last one.

Anyway welcome to the forum.

 

[halfawake454]

What!? Honest answers from a sales person

Thanks for the speedy reply and suggestions. I'll look into the rear hub's and belts.

 

[kentlim26]

Ask end user is best of all, end user will face problems that seldom have happen to the seller. my ebike of cyclone 900watts can do 67km/h top speed. tested. http://www.flickr.com/photos/kentlim26 i ride my ebike everyday with all types of speed. I will speed only when is really need for taffic Own safety. my 900watts controller is using a 48v 20hr lifepo4 battery. i got some photos for that ,

pretty very good range for me, easily clock per charge 63km. Max i ever done is 74km range. I may intend to build a 100km range at least or further. singapore is very small , for a range of 120km can travel me From north to south or east to west no problem. the cyclone motor is best use for thumb throttle or full twist throttle.. that is my personal opionion. half twist is difficult, makes my hand numb!

hub is good, so the RC is life time experience. whatever is name electric bike is the future for real freedom. EG. motorcycle cannot anyhow park, if is park at the wrong place , the rider will get a summon SG70.00, and must be desingated parking lot. it has lots of hidden cost having a small motorbike 150cc.

750watts? is it a 24v controller ? i won't suggest that one is good. Go for at least 36v controller or the 48volt controller. the 24v controller to me is lousy and can blow one if is using 36v. when it had blown my 24v controller headline, i don't know why. something is not right. the best speed for ebike i think is around 40km/h ~ 55km/h. at a speed of 40km/h ~ 50km/h the braking got no problem. it can take a immediately stop still okay.

cheers
kentlim

 

[spinningmagnets]

Whats your budget, and distance you have to travel before you can re-charge the batteries?

If you are on a super tight budget, Golden-Motor is about to produce a rear-hub kit (Magic Pie) that they claim they will retail for $250 for everything (minus batteries and charger), BUT...

They will have a one-day introductory sale of $150. I "think" its on the 20th, but check if you're interested so you don't miss it. Its a gamble. They clearly want a flood of first-week testing, perhaps because if only a couple people buy them, it might get a bad review. If its a rare lemon, one bad kit out of 99 isn't a problem for PR.

I don't know the top speed per voltage, and its recommended for 36V and 48V only. Who knows? it may only provide 20-mph at 48V, but that would get you to class without sweating, (and at a low price). You could get a second bike over time to hot-rod, and then sell the first bike if its too slow. Probably break even if the kit was only $150.

If you already have a bike and want an affordable proven solution. $550 will get you a starter set-up from eBike-kit.com or ampedbikes.com. (using SLA batteries, can be upgraded later) Amped bikes will do 20-mph on 36V, and 24-mph on 48V. eBike-kit states 22-mph at 36V (so I'm assuming 26-mph at 48V?).

I also like the ebikes.ca NiCD triangle pack and charger for $295

 

[Drunkskunk]

Someone else said here there are 3 aspects of Ebikes:
Cheap
Fast
Good

Pick any two.

Its entirly possable to hit 65kph on a 750 watt chain driven bike. Don't expect that to be normal, or easy to set up. Or cheap.


Usualy there's a bike to match just about anyone's needs, but in your case, you want speed, and getting speed above the 20-24mph mark starts getting expensive fast. Its not impossable though, with some tradeoffs, though more information is needed.

Whats your range? how far do you need to go?
How about hills? any steep ones to climb?
How important are acceleration and hill climbing to you compared to speed?
what brand and style of bike are you looking to mount this to?
and how much are you willing to spend?

 

[dogman dan]

One of the faster but still sorta cheap options is the Aotema, which can go around 27 mph on 48v. Also the 9 continents with the faster winding.
Both hubmotors, and one only avaliable in front hub. The fronties need good stout forks like those found on steel frame bikes.

 

[morph999]

if it's only a few miles to school, wouldn't it be nice to get a bike that has a small battery so you can easily take it into class with you? Maybe like a 10lb lifepo4 battery? YOu might want to consider the battery first then build the bike around it. Because the battery is going to be the most expensive part most likely.

 

[deardancer3]

454; what is your security/storage situation?
good ebikes at schools and around dorms ar pretty rare. A folder might be more easily stored/hidden.

Stealth and storage might be an topic if you might have a stolen bike issue.

d

 

[halfawake454]

Thanks for all the replies. Gotta leave in a moment, but I'll try to answer some of the questions.

As far as the security things I go to a small private college that has security guards that I know that I'm sure would keep an eye on it.

Whats your range? how far do you need to go?
3.5 miles to school and 3.5 again back. So, 7 miles or so.

How about hills? any steep ones to climb?
The roads I drive as almost all the roads here in the city are almost completely 100% flat, so not hills to worry about.

How important are acceleration and hill climbing to you compared to speed?
I don't mind a bike that takes a little while to get up to speed. The reason is because I only travel on like two roads. I turn left out of my apartment and travel that road for about 1/4 of the trip and then turn left and travel the rest of the trip down that straight road to my school.

what brand and style of bike are you looking to mount this to?
I plan on mounting it on my existing bike. A Schwinn Tourist 700c tire bike. It's basically a cheap road bike w/straight handlebars.

and how much are you willing to spend?
I'd like to try and put my limit around $1,000 if possible.

*Always willing to go cheaper though

Also, could someone explain the advantages/disadvantages of a rear hub motor vs a front wheel hub motor?

I keep thinking of new questions: I was wondering what someone would be able to pedal an ebike up to? Like for you guys that own an ebike now take your top speed that your bike can do on it's own and then start pedaling as fast as you can, how much faster on average can you get the bike going? I've just always kind of wondered that because I figured it would be a bit harder with a 50lb or so bike compared the much lighter bike it would be w/o the extra gear.

 

[morph999]

if you are looking for a good deal and something that goes average speed. Might try hightekbikes.com or http://www.e-bikekit.com

both of the owners use this forum on a regular basis and are legit websites. Or you could look into nine continent motors or crystalyte motors on http://ebikes.ca ...those a little more expensive.

 

[morph999]

Also, could someone explain the advantages/disadvantages of a rear hub motor vs a front wheel hub motor?

I keep thinking of new questions: I was wondering what someone would be able to pedal an ebike up to? Like for you guys that own an ebike now take your top speed that your bike can do on it's own and then start pedaling as fast as you can, how much faster on average can you get the bike going? I've just always kind of wondered that because I figured it would be a bit harder with a 50lb or so bike compared the much lighter bike it would be w/o the extra gear.

I'm on my 2nd e-bike. I still have my first one. It still runs, btw. Just bought something more powerful and exciting. The one I have now goes so fast, I don't even pedal it. My first one it would go about 28 mph and then I would try hard to get it to go faster and I could get maybe 2 or 3 mph more. It also has a huge sprocket on it...I think it's probably 52T. My new bike does not have a 52 T sprocket so I can't really pedal it when it's going over 20 mph. Once you hit about 30 mph, you really start feeling the wind.

I think you have a couple options.

1) get a cheaper motor avg speed 24 - 25 mph..with an expensive lifepo4 battery
2) get a cheaper motor avg speed 24 - 25 mph with cheap SLA batteries (this would be the cheapest option by far)
3) get an expensive motor with speed possiblity 30+ mph with expensive lifepo4 battery
4) get an expensive motor with speed possiblity 30+ mph with cheap SLA batteries

I chose option 4. I now have two bikes but I still have SLA's. I'm working on getting lithium since lithium has about 2x the range of SLA's.

 

[halfawake454]

For arguments sake, let's say I went with a kit from hightekbikes or ampedbikes. They both come with 36V batteries to power the motor. Would it increase speed and if so drastically by adding a, let's say, 48V battery? Would that screw anything up by using higher voltages of batteries to power the motor. Since I'm typing already, what makes the hightekbikes kit so much more? The ampedbikes mentions 500W-750W 36V kit that goes just over 20mph and is priced at $475 after shipping. The hightekbikes mentions 750W 36V kit that has a starting price of $710 before shipping. Just curious, why the big difference in price?

 

[spinningmagnets]

The $710 price you mention is the Bionx kit with lithium batteries, and the Ampedbikes kit you mention is priced with SLA. In the comparisons below, keep in mind the speed per volt also conversely has lower torque. By that I mean if there are two kits at 36V, one does 25-mph and the other does 20-mph, the 20-mph hub has more torque per volt while the other has more speed per volt.

To further complicate things, you can raise voltage to get more speed from a torquier hub. By that I mean, you can take a 20-mph hub and use 48V to get 25-mph. But then compared to a hub that gets 25-mph from 36V, the 48V would have more torque, even though now they are both providing the same speed.

Since it sounds like you dont have any hills and you probably wont be hauling heavy cargo, you might be well-served by any of these kits when upgraded to 48V. All info provided from retailer, and subject to change 5 minutes after you read this.

I have no experience with the three kits below, specs posted are from the retailers web-site, and all are priced WITH NO BATTERY INCLUDED. Selected specs below do NOT include comprehensive list of all components included, quality and capabilities of those components, or quality of customer service. Let the buyer beware...

Hightekbikes http://www.hightekbikes.com/kits.html (front hub only, unless buying complete Bionx kit)

750W, 36V/20A, 22-mph,.....$330 + $25 shipping

Amped Bikes http://www.ampedbikes.com/kits.html

750W, 36V 22A, 23-mph,.....$320 + $30 shipping

eBikekit http://www.ebike-kit.com/

750W, 36V 20A, 22-mph,.....$350 + $20 shipping

 

[TylerDurden]

I was wondering what someone would be able to pedal an ebike up to? Like for you guys that own an ebike now take your top speed that your bike can do on it's own and then start pedaling as fast as you can, how much faster on average can you get the bike going? I've just always kind of wondered that because I figured it would be a bit harder with a 50lb or so bike compared the much lighter bike it would be w/o the extra gear.

It's not the extra weight that is significant, it's the air drag at top speed: the ~200W you might contribute at >20mph doesn't get you much more speed. However, at slower powered speeds (<20mph) your pedal contributions can significantly increase your range.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Also, could someone explain the advantages/disadvantages of a rear hub motor vs a front wheel hub motor?

I keep thinking of new questions: I was wondering what someone would be able to pedal an ebike up to? Like for you guys that own an ebike now take your top speed that your bike can do on it's own and then start pedaling as fast as you can, how much faster on average can you get the bike going? I've just always kind of wondered that because I figured it would be a bit harder with a 50lb or so bike compared the much lighter bike it would be w/o the extra gear.

Front motor can be easier to install and is a little more universal in fit, but there are some technical chalanges to mounting one safely and they can't be used with aluminum suspension forks ( unless you have access to a machine shop)
Rear hub motors can be harder to fit some frames, and it can be difficult to match the gears with what was on the bike without replacing the derailer and shifter. Generaly its a much more solid mount to the bike.

The diffrence in preformance is more a matter of taste. front wheel or rear wheel drive. I prefer rear hub motors on my bikes, But I also hate driving frontwheel drive cars.


For what you want, a 9 Continents rear motor running at 48 volts should get 27mph, might hit 30 with pedaling.

Generaly, pedaling doesn't affect your speed that much at top speed. You're legs can add 20% more power or so, but since wind resistance is the big killer, it doesn't add more than a few miles an hour.

 

[halfawake454]

9 Continents motor? Where do you get them? Or is that what kind the ampedbikes and them sell?

Just thought I'd say this. Thanks for all the help everyone. This has to be one of the more friendly and helpful forums that I have visited in quite some time. Most of the time people get mad or frustrated all my questions on other forums I think how electric bikes work is starting to make a lot more sense just from this thread.

EDIT: thought of another question. How does your motor size in Wattage determine your speed? Like I've seen that if people increase their battery size from 36v to 48v+ it adds speed. What I'm confused about is it seems like assuming you get a controller that can handle the amount of volts you are using then you could keep increasing the speed of the bike by just continually adding higher voltage batteries. How does the wattage of the motor play in? Hope you know what I mean, if not lemme know I'll try to reword it.

 

[rhitee05]

How does your motor size in Wattage determine your speed? Like I've seen that if people increase their battery size from 36v to 48v+ it adds speed. What I'm confused about is it seems like assuming you get a controller that can handle the amount of volts you are using then you could keep increasing the speed of the bike by just continually adding higher voltage batteries. How does the wattage of the motor play in?

There's two different factors at work here.

Maximum motor speed is determined by something you'll see a lot around here, called Kv. That's a ratio of RPM per volt which is determined by the motor construction and winding. So, if you have a 100 Kv motor driven at 50V, it'll go 5,000 RPM. That's the maximum unloaded speed that the motor can turn, but it doesn't take into account weight, friction, air resistance, etc.

The maximum speed you can actually travel on the bike is a function of both the motor Kv and power (Watts). If you have a low Kv motor with plenty of power, the Kv will limit your maximum speed (multiplied by gearing, tire size, etc). You'll be able to accelerate quickly, but you'll reach the motor's top speed and not go any faster. If the motor has a higher Kv, your top speed will probably be limited when drag forces (weight, air resistance, friction) are equal to the power available. Or, in extreme cases, your top speed will be limited by your courage and/or stupidity (in the case of both high Kv and high power).

Adding more batteries for higher voltage increases both of the above. For a given motor Kv, more voltage means you can go faster. More voltage also means you get more power for the same amount of current, so the available power also increases. That gives you both higher top speed and better acceleration.

 

[Drunkskunk]

9 Continents motor? Where do you get them? Or is that what kind the ampedbikes and them sell?

...thought of another question. How does your motor size in Wattage determine your speed? Like I've seen that if people increase their battery size from 36v to 48v+ it adds speed. What I'm confused about is it seems like assuming you get a controller that can handle the amount of volts you are using then you could keep increasing the speed of the bike by just continually adding higher voltage batteries. How does the wattage of the motor play in? Hope you know what I mean, if not lemme know I'll try to reword it.

Hey, don't spread that around about us being friendly or helpfull. You'll ruin our mean and surly reputation

www.e-bikekit.com probably has the best prices and selection on the Nine Continents ( known as the 9C ) motor. Ebikes.ca Also has has a pretty good deal with them, but only offers pedal first. Both companies have excilent customer service after the sale and both post to these forums as well.

The wattage is the motor's horsepower. 750 watts = 1 horsepower. But its not rated like a gas engine. A Gas motor, known here as an ICE (internal combustion engine) is rated at it's peak output, while conventionaly an electric is rated at output at peak efficancy under a normal load at it's rated voltage.
The convention used by most is rated output at 36 volts, unless it was designed for lower voltage. So a 500 watt motor means it will pull 500 watts at full speed at 36 volts.
But to accelerate to that speed, it will pull more. possably much more as electric motors tend to pull as much power as you let them to accelerate. How much more depends on a few diffrent things, but the most obvious is the controller's rating. A 20Amp limit controller will let a 500 watt motor make 720 watts to accelerate. a 48volt, 40Amp controller would make 1920 amps, and a 72 volt, 40 amp controller would make 2880watts.

So what good is a 750 watt motor over a 500? Its bigger, heavier, but more able to handle the heat generated by running at higher voltages and amp loads.

 

[halfawake454]

haha, okay I'll try to spread that mean reputation

Looking at the order page/options for the e-bikekit site it lists freewheel. I have an idea of what them are. If i'm not mistaken it allows you to pedal w/o having to turn the motor, is that right? And if no freewheel was installed would the pedals continue turning by themselves with the motor? In any event it lists 5 speed and 6 speed freewheel's. How do you determine which one you would need/want?

If I can get some answers on this i may just go with a rear kit from e-bikekit and then in the future when I feel the need I'll upgrade to a 48v battery to get the higher speeds that i desire. I suppose I can live with 20mph for a while until I can save up some money for a higher voltage battery. Or I might go with their kit without the battery. If I go that route I need to know where I could get a 48v battery from. I'd like it to be cheap so I guess SLA route until i could save up for a more effcient LiFePo4.

 

[Drunkskunk]

SLA batteries will be a disapointment with that motor, but it can be done. you can get a 48V 15AH (the smallest I would use of that type) from pingbattery.com for under $500.

the Freewheel is as you suspect, what lets the wheel turn when the pedals aren't. its the same as whats on your bike now, except that your bike uses an 8 speed.
That means the shifter and derailer won't be compatable with either the 5 or 6 speed.
From experiance, I know a 7 speed will fit this motor with the addition of 4mm of spacing with washers.
you will need a new shifter and a new rear derailer an possably a new chain. 8 and 9 speeds commonly use a thinner chain that 7 speeds and lower. the good news is the rapidfire shifter runs $29, the "red wheel" derailer around $14, and a chain is $10. Those prices are for the 7 speeds. Most shops stock them as they are pretty common on department store bikes. I don't know the proices on the 5 or 6 speed versions, but they should be similar.


And if you do end up going with e-bikekit.com, call them first. tell them you're a new Endless Sphere member and ask them if they have any October sales.....

 

[halfawake454]

Why would SLA batteries be a disappointment?

Question on the topic of front wheel hub motors. Basically, if magnets stick to my front fork (and it is just a regular fork, no suspension fork) then it is doable with a front wheel hub motor? I thought I read that somewhere, is that a good test to make sure?

I like the ease of just switching the front tire out...rather then messing with the derailleur for freewheel if I got the rear wheel kit.

 

[DerekG]

SLA Batteries are a disappointment because...

*They are heavy which means without the motor you have to pedal more weight than an equivalent Lithium Battery

* They only deliver about half their rated capacity when used with an ebike b/c of the current draw (You would need 18ah SLA's to get about the same AH as a 10aH lithium pack)

*They drop voltage under load much more than other chemistry's. This means that your top speed will be lower with a 36 volt SLA pack as compared to a 36 volt LifePO4 pack.

*They only last for 100-200 cycles unless you take great care of them (don't run them below 40%ish), don't put a large current draw on them, don't bounce them around too much, charge them slowly, etc... LifePO4 packs on the other hand should be good for at least 1000 cycles even if you discharge them to 100% every time. Probably more like 2500 or so if you don't discharge below half.

I have a kit from e-bikekit.com and after much debate over what battery I should get I went with the LifePO4. I didn't really want to pay extra, however, the performance difference is worth it. The discharge curve is really flat which means it delivers great power all the way till it shuts off. I went 24 miles on mine today across hilly terrain and used about 6aH of power. I went up that last hill almost as quick as the first time I went up it even though the pack was fully charged in the beginning and below half at the end. If I had SLA's (18ah lets say) which weigh 13 pounds each, (which would deliver almost the same power as my pack), they would weigh 3 times as much and that last hill would have been tough because I probably would have only gotten 28 volts or so out of them at that point vs 34 with the LifePO4 pack.

When it comes to batteries you pay for quality. If your going to go for a shrink-wrap pack so Ping or go home... the rest stink. It's blunt, however, everything I have read on these forums and elsewhere reach that same conclusion. I kinda wish I went for 48 volts just because of the speed increase, however, I wanted a high quality pack which would perform as expected and be easy to transport... On that front e-bikekit's delivered. With my 36 volt pack I can reach the legal limit of 20mph quite easily and can go about 22-23 or so on flat ground. If its a slight decline I can get it up to 26 which is the freewheel speed. Any faster than that and it's almost too quick for a bike with no suspension...

 

[halfawake454]

Thnx for the explanation of the batteries. Here's the thing, if I was going to stick with the 36V battery, I'd go with the LiFePo4 without a doubt. I'm just not sure If i'm going to stick with the 36V for more than a few months. Just enough time to make some extra money and invest in a 48V LiFePo4 for the little extra speed I'm wanting.

....decisions decisions! Wish I could try before I buy.

What would you guys do. Should I torture myself for 3-6 months (plans change so I'm giving myself leeway on how long i'll keep the first battery pack) with the 36V SLA battery?

I mean I'd of course really like to get the LiFePo4 version to start off with, but I also really like to eat food. Torn between 2 loves!

 

[halfawake454]

Wait a minute! Have I been high in my last few posts? I guess I could order the kit without the battery and get the 48V 10AH battery from pingbattery.com and it would still be cheaper than just buying the entire kit with the battery....Why did I not look at the prices of pingbattery before? Sweet, I think this is what I will do as long as someone can help me with my final question.

Why is the 48V 10Ah battery at pingbattery.com cheaper than the 36V 10Ah battery from e-bikekits.com? Is it just the way each person decided to price it? I just want to make sure I'm not missing something that makes the pingbattery suck or something.

Also, just to be sure, with a 48V connected to this kit I would get speeds around the high 20's, correct? Like 25-29mph or so?

I will give a cookie to whomever answers my question.