Help understanding / replacing controller please!

[encore-moi]

Hi all,
Sorry, I am not very knowledgeable about all this. I'm learning.
I think I need to replace the controller for my scooter-like e-bike (the motor is marked 500w):

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I think screwed up the controller by creating a shortcut at the point where the Hal sensors wires go to the motor.
The bike starts up like normal, but when I turn the handle it does not go anymore. I had someone test the motor, and it is fine. So that leaves the controller, right...

I'd love to be able to fix the controller itself, but could not identify the issue. I did the basic tests we see on the internet, to check for continuity and the mosfet. No problem there. So I'm clueless. This is what the controller looks like:

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At this point I am ready to buy a new controller, try to find on my bike what wire is for what, and adjust the connector... BUT...

BUT I dont know a thing about controllers and motors and all that. So my "simple" questions are:

• Can I use any type of controller with similar specs (brushless, 60V, 24a, rated for a 500w motor) ?
• Can I safely use a 60v 30a controller?
• Is it ok to use a controller rated for a 800w or even 1000w or more motor? (does the rating mean the controller can handle "that much" but would be ok with a smaller motor?)
• Should I actually look for a 1500w rated controller since 60v * 20a is 1200w? (I do have 5 batteries, 12v 20a each)

The "display" on the bike looks like this. I dont care much about it. I suppose it is just there to show information about speed, lights and charge, but I'm curious to know if it should work with any controller provided I manage to wire it correctly? Most importantly, will I still be able to use the bike if the controller is not compatible with the display? (second picture is from my bike, first I think is similar with a slightly different casing)

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I read on the forum that controllers are not compatible with all display, but I have no way to figure what brand of display this is, just a shitty Chinese scooter... My question is:

• Even if the controller is not compatible with the display, will the bike run?

I am sorry, this is a lot of very naive questions I am sure. But difficult to get around for a newcomer without any kind of training or experience. I read stuff on the forum an try to understand.

From what I gathered, I think the answer is "YES" I could use a 60v 30a 1000w controller and the bike should run. But having someone really confirm this would help me a lot!

When I go on amazon for controller I see some that are said to "self-learn". Would that be a wiser option?
Here are a few I am considering:

• CONTROLER 48V/60V UNIVERSAL BRUSHLESS 800W 30A – PIECES SCOOTER ELECTRIQUE (from a store near my place)
• Amazon.ca Something Went Wrong / Quelque chose s'est mal passé (described as Mautacly 48V 60V 72V 3000W Hub Motor Controller 24Mos MAX80A
• Amazon.ca Something Went Wrong / Quelque chose s'est mal passé (described as ChongXiao 36V 48V 60V 72V 350W 500W 600W 20A-25A Brushless Controller rated power：350W-450W-500W)
• Amazon.ca Something Went Wrong / Quelque chose s'est mal passé (described as Keenso E-Bike Controller, 48V 60V 64V 72V Metal Motor Brushless Controller 1000W)

I like this last one, it has a lot of positive reviews.

Thank a lot for your patience!

 

[implicitmatrix]

I can tell you right away that isn't a 500W controller. 60V * 24A = 1440W, probably a bit more when the battery is fully charged. A lot of ebike motors and controllers will say that they are 500W just to be "legal" and these ratings have little bearing on the actual performance of the motor. The danger with having a higher amperage controller is that it might overheat your motor if you aren't careful and if there's no temperature control, but I'm sure others here are far more knowledgeable than I am.

P.S.: Just to let you know, the law is currently a little unclear in québec regarding ebikes, but that is almost certainly not street legal (as an ebike). I don't care if people ride these on the roads, but I think it's good to be aware of their legal status regardless.

 

[encore-moi]

Yeah, I was also puzzled by the how 60*24 makes 1440w, while the motor is clearly marked 500w. I do have 5 batteries (12v, 20a each). Does this mean I need to find a controller rated to 1500w at least? (mine is not marked).

PS: Yeah, I know about regulations in Mtl. The current controller was programmed to limit speed at 32km, as required by law. I dont care if it end up faster, I'll drive it carefully!

 

[implicitmatrix]

From what I understand, if you go by voltage and amperage, you should be fine. Having a lower rated controller shouldn't hurt your motor either, it'll just not be as powerful.

Regarding the legal status, it was more so the pedals I was thinking about. From what I understand, they need to be able to propel the bike under human power (and they can't be stowed all the time). Judges don't seem to have been too happy with unusable pedals. But also, I ride a bike that is in a legal grey area too, I'm not at all trying to tell you not to use it.

 

[encore-moi]

From what I understand, if you go by voltage and amperage, you should be fine. Having a lower rated controller shouldn't hurt your motor either, it'll just not be as powerful.

Regarding the legal status, it was more so the pedals I was thinking about. From what I understand, they need to be able to propel the bike under human power (and they can't be stowed all the time). Judges don't seem to have been too happy with unusable pedals. But also, I ride a bike that is in a legal grey area too, I'm not at all trying to tell you not to use it.

Thanks for this. Lets see if others can chip in... especially regarding the display issue...

Yeah, technically, the pedals are there and they can propel the bike. They are just not practical at all. I also heard that they recently became more specific about what it means to be "equipped with pedals" and having them under the seat will not cut it any more. I am mostly betting on riding very respectfully to make sure I dont draw attention! Cops are not suppose to be allowed to "examine" your vehicle unless they have a very good motive, so just dont give them motive to be curious...

 

[glennb]

Regarding motor ratings … they’re nominal, meaning an approximation of the sustained load beyond which the motor will overheat.

These scooter bikes were banned in Australia many years ago after a series of court cases and challenges. The cranks were considered decoration.

As a result, they became worthless. I stripped a couple, but couldn’t find any parts worth holding onto. Not even the motors. All the parts that I put out the front of my house disappeared, but that means nothing, because the neighbourhood junkies hoard anything and everything.

 

[glennb]

Sorry, that wasn’t very helpful and didn’t address any of your questions.

Your scooter looks perfectly decent. Safe, comfortable, practical.

I wouldn’t stuff around with any of the types of controllers you’re looking at, they’re a false economy. Get a programmable controller, so that you have control over phase amps, can customise the throttle response, and can keep incrementing battery current up to whatever it turns out the motor can handle. A 50A controller would be plenty.

First up, though, whatever controller you go with, you need to know what the battery’s capable of. That means inspecting the BMS and respecting its rating, OR inspecting the cells and hopefully discovering that they’re more capable than the BMS, which gives you the option of pushing the BMS to the brink or upgrading to a higher current BMS.

Remember, the cells need to be rated higher than the BMS, and the BMS needs to be rated higher than the controller. This is not negotiable. Cooking a motor is fine, cooking a battery is anything but fine.

 

[encore-moi]

Sorry, that wasn’t very helpful and didn’t address any of your questions.

Your scooter looks perfectly decent. Safe, comfortable, practical.

I wouldn’t stuff around with any of the types of controllers you’re looking at, they’re a false economy. Get a programmable controller, so that you have control over phase amps, can customise the throttle response, and can keep incrementing battery current up to whatever it turns out the motor can handle. A 50A controller would be plenty.

First up, though, whatever controller you go with, you need to know what the battery’s capable of. That means inspecting the BMS and respecting its rating, OR inspecting the cells and hopefully discovering that they’re more capable than the BMS, which gives you the option of pushing the BMS to the brink or upgrading to a higher current BMS.

Remember, the cells need to be rated higher than the BMS, and the BMS needs to be rated higher than the controller. This is not negotiable. Cooking a motor is fine, cooking a battery is anything but fine.

Explaining that the motor rating is nominal did help! But this is also great, thank you. Yes, I have been told to look into programmable controllers as an alternative. I'm a bit worried that will go way over my head. How do you program a controller? I am also not very well equipped in terms of tools, etc. From what I've seen, programmable controller like the ND72360 are about $300 (Canadian), so this is quite a leap. Do I have better chance that the controller will work with the display if it is programmable?

The batteries I got on this look like standard/cheap Chinese 6-dzm-20 batteries. This is not a fancy scooter. I'm not sure I would know how to inspect the BMS or even open them up to check the cells.

I'm not looking to make the scooter much more powerful than it was. I certainly would not mind it braking the 32 kmh limitation it had, but it's not like I'm looking for as much speed as I can, etc.

I understand going for a cheap option is not the wisest, and while I dont this I am ready (yet!) to try something "high end" I would be fine going with "mid range"... but then again I know nothing about controllers and I cannot distinguish them apart from the price!

I mentionne that one on amazon having a good number of positive reviews:

• Amazon.ca Something Went Wrong / Quelque chose s'est mal passé

But considering that I'm working with 60v and 20a, perhaps this would be better, since rated for

• Amazon.ca Something Went Wrong / Quelque chose s'est mal passé (title says "yuandai Intelligent Brushless Controller 48V 60V 72V 84V 2000W Maximum Current 45A")

Or could someone give me an example of something they would recommand?

I am still concerned with the display compatibility. What happens if the controller and the display are not "compatible"?

 

[glennb]

Votol are good value, possibly the best.

EM-25, EM-30, EM-50, and EM-80, are all around the same size and price. Might as well buy the 80A version and dial down the current.

There are compatible displays for them, but they’re entirely optional and unnecessary for operation.

No tools are required for programmable controllers, and they’re not difficult to program.

If display and controller are incompatible you have a useless display.

 

[glennb]

Your scooter’s pretty awesome, it deserves a decent controller. But really, it’s for you, not the scooter. Good programmable ones are worlds apart from the generic silver boxes, you will never want the crappy ones again once you’ve compared them.

Batteries are expensive. I’d put effort into determining what yours is capable of.

 

[encore-moi]

Thanks again for the answers!

Ok, so useless display does not mean the bike would not run, and I suppose that with a bit more work and investment I could eventually manage to replace the display with one compatible with the new controller.

I will try to learn about the batteries so I see how things could be optimized.

On the other hand, what you suggest feels like big project (to me!), and I still kinda feel like I'd rather get a quick fix for now, and then have time to learn more, do some shopping, and take time to make the best of what I have!

With this is mind, maybe I should go with the cheap amazon "Keenso E-Bike Controller, 48V 60V 64V 72V Metal Motor Brushless Controller 1000W-1500W" (Amazon.ca Something Went Wrong / Quelque chose s'est mal passé) for my a quick fix. If I understood correctly, that controller should get the bike going, but there is a chance the display will not work.

 

[glennb]

Yep, you’ve summed it up nicely.

The keenso controller is a similar price to a Votol.

Programmable controllers have lots of features, but that doesn’t mean you have to use them.

Bear in mind that you’ll be going from the original 24A, up to 32A with the keenso, without yet having established that the battery and BMS are good for the extra current. If you find the motor cutting out after extended time, or instantly on giving full throttle from standstill, you’ll likely find it’s due to the BMS cutting out.

 

[encore-moi]

Fantastic.

I could not find a Votol programmable controller in that price range! Where do you see those?

On what I see in the keenso going for 80$ (including delivery) the Votol are in the $140 price range (here)

Should I look somewhere else?

 

[glennb]

Yes, aliexpress is where you’ll find them. The EM-80 is better value than the EM-50. You might want a larger motor in future, so might as well spend an extra twenty dollars up front now.

80A will smoke your motor in no time, but you don’t have to worry about that, you simply program it for less current, for whatever your motor and battery can handle.

The EM-30 would be fine as well. They’re unrestricted, you can plug in whatever values you want. You could have the EM-30 supply 50A for a determined burst period. Just don’t expect it to supply 50A continuously without overheating.

 

[encore-moi]

Yeah, I checked on aliexpress. Maybe because I'm in Canada the shipping costs set EM-50 to $98+$40 (example) and there is only one EM-30S option going for $51+$35, so this is the same as the Keenso in terms of price. Weirdly enough I can find EM-80s (here) on sale at $98+$18 but I'm not sure the wires are included... and Aliexpress is an extra 15 days for shipping compare to amazon.

I could be patient and go for the EM30 but at this point I am really afraid I might fail at simply programming it and won't be able to know if the problem is that, of if something else is wrong with the scooter, etc.

On the Keenso they say current is "26A-32A" so I suppose it should operate at a lower range unless I ask for full power like climbing at full speed. Like you said I'll have to figure what the battery can handle and be careful if this is close or beyond normal range.