High speed pedaling: Comparing MEGA-Overdrives - BIG LIST

[crossbreak]

IMO 52T is the largest chainring that still looks OK.I want to figure out the different possible MEGA overdrive systems that can be used in a high speed non-hubmotor drive.

The 21.5" wheel is a 16"-2.75" moped wheel with 21.5" outer dia

#1: Sturmey Archer S80 XRK8 8-Speed Disc Brake Hub

Overdrive: 3.25
Smallest sprocket i have found: 23T
Over all overdrive: 52/23 x 3.25 = 7.35

Spread: 325%

Price: around $150

Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->84km/h 26"->78km/h 24"->72km/h 21.5"->64km/h
Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->52mph 26"->48mph 24"->45mph 21.5"->40mph

Homepage: http://www.sturmey-archer.com/products/hubs/cid/5/id/9


#2: Hammerschmidt/Schlumpf/Metropolis-Patterson Drive with chain wheel adapter and 11-32T derailleur
Overdrive: 1.6
Smallest sprocket: 11T
Over all overdrive: 52/11 x 1.6 = 7.56

Spread: 465 %

Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->86km/h 26"->80km/h 24"->74km/h 21.5"->66km/h
Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->54mph 26"->50mph 24"->46mph 21.5"->41mph

Price: from $200 (Metropolis-Patterson) to $400 (Hammerschmidt) to $600 (Schlumpf) plus chainwheel adapter and derailleur. The Schlumpf does not need a chain wheel adapter, it is directly compatible to 52T chain wheels. The Hammerschmidt can take 130mm 5-arm chain rings using my adapter: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58436
For the Metropolis-Patterson there is a 5-arm adapter available from the manufacturer.

Schlumpf: http://www.haberstock-mobility.com/en/products/schlumpf-drive.html
Hammerschmidt: http://www.sram.com/truvativ/products/truvativ-hammerschmidt-am-crankset
Metropolis Patterson: http://www.metropoliscomponents.com/patterson.htm


#3: Schlumpf High Speed Drive with 11-32T derailleur
Overdrive: 2.5
Smallest sprocket: 11T

Over all overdrive: 52/11 x 2.5 = 11.8

Spread: 727 %

Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->134km/h 26"->125km/h 24"->115km/h 21.5"->103km/h
Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->84mph 26"->78mph 24"->72mph 21.5"->64mph

Price: ???

Schlumpf: http://www.haberstock-mobility.com/en/products/schlumpf-drive.html




With ratios below 7:

#4: Shimano Alfine 11-Speed Hub SG-S700

Overdrive: 2.153
Smallest sprocket i have found: 18T

Over all overdrive: 52/18 x 2.153 = 6.22

Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->71km/h 26"->62km/h 24"->61km/h 21.5"->54 km/h
Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->44mph 26"->41mp h 24"->38mph 21.5"->34 mph

Spread: 409 %

Price: around $400
Homepage: http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/products/0/alfine/product.-code-SG-S700.-type-.html



#5: Rohloff Speedhub 500/14
Overdrive: 1.467
Smallest sprocket: 13T

Over all overdrive: 52/13 x 1.467 = 5.87

Spread: 526%

Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->67km/h 26"->62km/h 24"->57km/h 21.5"->51km/h
Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->42mph 26"->39mph 24"->36mph 21.5"->32mph

Price: ???

Homepage: http://www.rohloff.de/en/technology/speedhub/technics/index.html


#6: 52T with 11-32T derailleur

Overdrive: 52/11 = 4.73
Spread: 291%

Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->54km/h; 26"->50km/h; 24"->46km/h; 21.5"->41km/h
Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"->33 mph; 26"->31 mph; 24"->29 mph; 21.5"->26 mph


Any more options for overdrive ratios >7?

 

[full-throttle]

Schlumpf also make a 2.5:1 speed drive

 

[crossbreak]

thx I added that one!

The most high speed combination would be the Sturmey Archer Hub with the Schlumpf High Speed drive :

#1000: Schlumpf High Speed Drive with Sturmey Archer 8-Speed Hub XRK-8
Overdrive: 2.5 x 3.25
Smallest sprocket: 23T

Over all overdrive: 52/23 x 2.5 x3.25 = 18.37

Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"-> 209km/h; 26"-> 194km/h; 24"-> 179km/h; 21.5"-> 161km/h

Spread: 813 %

 

[spinningmagnets]

I know this doesn't help your search, but I thought you'd find it amusing:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11323&start=50

 

[crossbreak]

that looks awesome

added speeds for different tire sizes at 85rpm crank cadence

Looks like the Sturmey Archer is the highest value for the money :?

 

[dogman dan]

I found above 35mph I didn't like adding wobble by pedaling very much. My 56 tooth looks ok to me. 56-14 got me pedaling to 35 mph.

 

[crossbreak]

I use 53/11 ATM which is too slow, even on 12s with my HS3540. That's why I started this list

56/14 is even slower maybe you need a faster dog?

56/14 is an overdrive of 4.
Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"-> 46km/h; 26"-> 42km/h; 24"-> 39km/h; 21.5"-> 35km/h

Speeds at 85rpm crank speed: 28"-> 28mph; 26"-> 26mph; 24"-> 24mph; 21.5"-> 22mph

 

[crossbreak]

added speeds in miler per hour

 

[Tommy L]

I'm contemplating spinning a small electric motor with my pedals that I could send a signal of 0-5v to the controller.

Something like the E-Rokit. You pedal slow, but go fast, no chain.... brilliant! I don't like his price tag though.
But not so brilliant if you breakdown and need to pedal home
But if you incorporate a switch to send the generator energy directly to the motor, you can pedal it home.
Efficient? Not sure unless I.....Experiment, Observe, and Take Notes :wink:

Tommy L sends.....

[youtube]HEIxABzcHYY[/youtube]

 

[Eskimo]

After riding weeks my cruiser with singlespeed hub, third gear on my new Shimano 3-three speed feels like a warpdrive.

 

[crossbreak]

I'm contemplating spinning a small electric motor with my pedals that I could send a signal of 0-5v to the controller.

efficiency will be around 80% for the generator and 80% for the motor in the best case. It is more likely that it will be less.
So your drive will gain around 0.8x0.8= 64% efficiency on the flats, on hills it will be much worse. For comparison, a derailleur has around 96%, a gearhub around 92%.

After riding weeks my cruiser with singlespeed hub, third gear on my new Shimano 3-three speed feels like a warpdrive.

this is slow...OT

 

[Hillhater]

I'm contemplating spinning a small electric motor with my pedals that I could send a signal of 0-5v to the controller.

Something like the E-Rokit. You pedal slow, but go fast, no chain.... brilliant! ]

brilliant indeed, but what is the point ?
You are not adding power to the drive?
you are not getting any exercise of significance
you are not complying with the law ( in most countries), so would require registration, licensing etc etc.
I dont really see why you want to pedal at these high speeds anyway .. 35-40 mph will require 1.5-2kW of power, so the extra 1-200W that you can add is not going to help much ?
May as well just "faux pedal" to keep the blood circulating.

 

[Kingfish]

For the 2011 Road Trip to California, I purchased a Campagnolo Competition Triple 30-42-53 for my 1999 Felt Compulsion-1 DH F/S MtB. To mount this Roadie chainring, I designed a custom bracket to accept a Campy derailleur, and had Phil Wood spec out a custom Bottom Bracket which moved the crank assembly out another 5mm more pact the frame so the 53T ring could have clearance.

P/N from Phil Wood: B0715 S-S Campy 68 x 124mm

The customer service at Phil Wood was most excellent!

On the other end, for a while I had the Shimano XT Cassette 9 Speed M770 - 11-34, but then I put a hub motor on the rear (creating a 2WD) and had to go with the 9 Speed Freewheel 11-32T LONG YIH DNP which kinda sucked cos it was LOUD. About a year later it was replaced, though it might be due again; honest to gawd those Chinese freewheels don't hardly last more than a year

Anyway - my "normal" operation is 53:11 with the 11T on a 24" tire.

It's 2WD, and I can keep pace with cars at 38 mph with some effort. However I find it most comfortable around 29-33 mph and I can hold that all day long.

I do not think it is practical to go any higher with this frame. There are issues, such as using MtB Index shifters on a roadie chainring, or that the angle of attack for the roadie derailleur is slightly different than MtB. It is very obvious that the manufacturers crafting bike parts absolutely DID NOT want the two styles of bikes to share any equipment, let alone Shimano and Campy differences.

If I had to do it over - I'd probably take a closer look at Recumbent parts.

Safe travels, KF

 

[crossbreak]

hey KF,

that's very similar to what I drive on my 28" friction drive bike. After I calced above, 34mph would be 85rpm on your crank, which is still quite comfortable IMO. I now go for 53/13 instead of 11 again, since the 11T eats chains like nothing. Can change them twice a year, of after 1500km. On my 13T sprocket bikes I never changed them, since they last almost forever.

This experience and the fact that it was always too slow for me even with 53/11, let me buy a hammerschmidt on the bay for my HS3540 26" bike. Payed 220 for it, that is bitter. Hope this will pay out in the end. Had to build a speciak torque arm for it, since the standard ones would not fit my bike. It was pretty easy for me, took about 1.5 hours to make and install the hammerschmidt. Now I've got the tiny standard 24T on it have to make an adapter today to use a 52T on it.

I'd probably take a closer look at Recumbent parts.

Did that, they do the same: Use large chain wheels which look ugly or use gearhubs :? Or go hammerschmidt like i do now

Just for comparison: A 53T on a hammerschmidt is equal to a 53x1.6 = 85T this would look like in the pic spinningmagnets posted :x

 

[Tommy L]

I'm contemplating spinning a small electric motor with my pedals that I could send a signal of 0-5v to the controller.

Something like the E-Rokit. You pedal slow, but go fast, no chain.... brilliant! ]

brilliant indeed, but what is the point ?
You are not adding power to the drive?
you are not getting any exercise of significance
you are not complying with the law ( in most countries), so would require registration, licensing etc etc.
I dont really see why you want to pedal at these high speeds anyway .. 35-40 mph will require 1.5-2kW of power, so the extra 1-200W that you can add is not going to help much ?
May as well just "faux pedal" to keep the blood circulating.

Our ministry of transport in Ontario, Canada says:
- has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals,
- is capable of being propelled by muscular power,

So this is very vague. According to the def. you can just sit on it and push with your feet, but it has to be equipped with pedals.
Exercise? Of Significance? If there is no load on that generator and it's just providing 0-5v, sure. If you are also using it as regen, then a
250watt geared generator is a workout. But not sure if the load on the rider is reduced if you put that energy into an Ultra Cap or RC LiCo.
Those two chemistry's offer low resistance while charging. While Generator to motor sounds like a lot of losses, check out the second video.
Interesting food for thought

Tommy L sends.....

[youtube]a-7iSmC4s5A[/youtube]
[youtube]x-tuETfeIRI[/youtube]

 

[crossbreak]

this series-hybrid story is kind of pseudo bicycling IMO. Has nothing to do with a real bicycle anymore :x efficiency is just too bad to ride it without a battery

 

[Tommy L]

this series-hybrid story is kind of pseudo bicycling IMO. Has nothing to do with a real bicycle anymore :x efficiency is just too bad to ride it without a battery

I thought we all ride with batteries here Just another option for pedalling because most of us do it for looks. I also pedal to
get a workout. So to pedal a 250watt motor is a work out if connected to a load. I'm just curious about the load difference between
charging a Lead vs LiFePO4 vs RC LiCo vs Super Capacitors while using that 250 watt motor as a generator. I guess that I will have to
purchase one and try it!

Tommy L sends....

 

[Kingfish]

hey KF,

that's very similar to what I drive on my 28" friction drive bike. After I calced above, 34mph would be 85rpm on your crank, which is still quite comfortable IMO. I now go for 53/13 instead of 11 again, since the 11T eats chains like nothing. Can change them twice a year, of after 1500km. On my 13T sprocket bikes I never changed them, since they last almost forever.

Hey CB

I haven't had a chain-eating problem. I'm pretty sure the chain I'm running is the Shimano XTR CN-7701 9-Speed Chain which was selected by my wheel builder at REI when he worked there. Honestly, I think all of my 2WD miles are on the same chain. I just tend to keep it clean and lightly lubed.

But you bring up a good point and I should take it in and have it checked. The ebike before it had the chain replaced twice in its' life; it saw a lot more abuse. Winter is harsh on equipment and I didn't do very much during the tail end of 2011 leading into 2012 cos of the knee injury & RUST problems, and I didn't do much this past winter either, so perhaps that explains the longevity.

Frankly, I wish there was a bidet for bikes - having an organic quick-drying degreaser + light lube stop & wash. I mean think about it: Cars have quickie-lubes; why not bikes? :wink:


A Chained Melody, KF ♪ ♫ ♬

 

[MattyCiii]

Consider adding NuVinci to the list?

Both my bikes use the N360 in the rear wheel. These have a spread of 360% between top and bottom. In the front I use something different for each bike:

Folding bike: ATS SPeed Drive, which provides 1:1 straight or 1:1.6 overdrive.
If I'm not mistaken, you just multiply to get the full spread of the combination? 360% * 1.6 = 576% full spread?

Norco A-Line: Schlumpf High Speed Drive (1:1 and 1:2.5 overdrive) for a full spread of a 900% spread. I don't know if that math is right or not, but consider this: in low gear I can (very slowly) propel the ~120lb bike + ~180lb rider up what must be a 15% grade hill near my house (then faint at the top). Concurrently, I can use e-power to get the bike up to 33mph and still mash gears at 60rpm, and still have some top end to the gearing. Yes, this combination is overkill.

 

[crossbreak]

Hey Matty, of course, didn't think of these two.

What is the smallest sprocket size for N360?

We one talked about your setup - a year ago. At that time I found it too expensive :x Don't wanna know what you payed So sad that there is no Hammerschmidt Adapter. Just made my own with a file Pics will follow...

later
-CB

EDIT: Posted the Pics in my build thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=50194&p=744542#p744538

 

[MattyCiii]

N360 supports sprockets from 16t to 22t.

The ATS Speed Drive uses a 110mm BCD chainring. The Schlumpf High Speed Drive uses a 27t chainring IIRC, but you can specify others I think.

 

[Chalo]

At the speeds being discussed here, you lose more energy to aerodynamic drag when pedaling than you can contribute with the pedals. It's best to just hold the pedals level, pull your knees in to the bike, and tuck.

According to the power calculator at kreuzotter.de, If you can reach 50mph without pedaling, you'll lose about 3mph by "ghost pedaling" (making no power) at 85 rpm. That speed difference represents more than a 500W power difference, which is a lot more than you'll be able to sustain at the pedals. You will be slower if you pedal along!

Bicycle systems only make sense at bicycle speeds. If you want to ride a motorcycle, ride a motorcycle. Why pretend you are riding a bicycle?

 

[MattyCiii]

...Bicycle systems only make sense at bicycle speeds. If you want to ride a motorcycle, ride a motorcycle. Why pretend you are riding a bicycle?

Good questions. Some people do things without thinking things through (me especially - reference my build threads ). So these are good questions we should all ask ourselves.

That said, I have some answers.
1) Sometimes I **do** want to pretend to be a bicycle. Sometimes when among drivers I want to discern as a powered vehicle. "Air pedaling" does not cut it for me, it only looks real if I'm pedaling against resistance at a reasonable ~80rpm. I think most motorists will see "all the right moves" - man on bike accelerating with feet turning - and not see that I'm moving at a speed somewhat faster than should be expected...
2) Heat management. On those 5 degree Fahrenheit days, I'm going to pedal hard until I get warm, regardless of throttle position. Then I'm going to peddle medium to stay warm.
3) Fitness. Almost a year after going from pedal-only to e-biker, I've gained 10 lbs. But I haven't had to tailor any clothes, and my cholesterol continues to get better year over year. I went from intense 80 minutes a day pedaling 3 days a week, to moderate 40 minutes a day pedaling 5 days a week. My weight gain plateaued about 6 months ago.

Again, good questions. My answers are right for my needs and lifestyle.
Moreover, how does one define bicycle speeds? I consistently hit 35mph on my pedal bike on the hill down the road. This is faster than either of my e-bikes can do hot off the charger and with a tailwind.

 

[Chalo]

These are valid points for certain circumstances. Another such situation would be where the bike used a pedal sensor instead of a throttle.

If you can arrange to ride down a 12% or steeper hill everywhere you go, it's like having at least a couple kW on tap at all times. But when I say "bicycle speeds", I mean the speeds you get with a continuous 1/2 horsepower or less. A shopping cart might reach 50mph if you roll it down the side of a mountain, but that's not "shopping cart speed" in a general sense. And a pedal drivetrain isn't doing anything for you, dynamically speaking, at those times when your bike hits 50mph by other means.

 

[crossbreak]

hey chalo,

that is a reasonable statement for Speeds above 50mph. My bike does not go so fast It would on 18s, but than my battery would be empty quite fast. At speeds around 30mph pedaling makes sense. You can reach 35mph without any motor support, if you pedal enough ;But my bike goes 45mph, I want to be able to pedal always, otherwise it's no bycicle anymore.

The things Mat listed could be optained by the generator Tommy thinks about. Still, IMO a Hammerschmidt or ATS is the best solution They are not only made for ebikes, but for bycicle btw! Mountint a 52T was not my idea in the first place, chalo!

Still I like your statement a lot. Many people here should throw away their pedals like christerl does http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=48963#p722211, many still insist on them