Hub Zilla Build Vrs Dual H series Crystalyte Build

[Indubitably]

I'm in the akward position of having 60v (18s) worth of thundersky 40ah hour batteries on a 70 lb recumbent with a crystalyte 5302. Needless to say, it does pretty much make for the ideal death trap of unstoppable kinetic energy at speed on the flat (think 320lbs at 60 miles an hour with nothing but coaster brakes and regen between you and certain doom), but the moment it so much as looks at a hill with a grade over 5% it stops dead in its tracks and starts whining for its mommy.

The build was clearly put together before I really understood exactly what I was getting into, but I'm pretty much stuck with these components now, so I need to figure out an upgrade to the build that will make it viable. My target is a 35MPH top speed on the flat with peak efficiency in the 20 to 30 mph range, the ability to sustain a 20% grade for 45 mins without danger of overheating, and 30% grades for 10 mins. The options as I see them are...

Build up:

Turn my bike into a low speed motorcycle with a Hubzilla wound for torque and as many thunderskys as it takes to hit the voltage I need in order to simply brute force the hill without bogging down. I'm allready at 330, so we may be talking about a gross weight approaching 400lbs if I go this rout.

Pros: More power than I know what to do with, the ability to tow a trailer on the flat (or perhaps even a passenger), enough range to travel a couple hundred miles on the flat without pedaling.

Cons: Fortunately I've already upgraded the bike with air adjustable dirtbike shocks that have a mount for a nice beefy hydrolic disk brake, but it will still be heavy as all hell and dangerous to ride, and bothering to pedal at this point is pretty much useless beyond its comedic value. We're talking about some pretty serious cash for that matter too, I'm probably going to need another $900 worth of thunder skies, a $600 motor and a controller that can handle at least 120v at 100a is going to be more than $300 any way I slice it.


Build Down:

Strip every last pound of weight I possibly can off the build, abandon the full suspension recumbent frame (that I worked so hard to get on the road) and move everything to a 20lb bmx with standard bicycle front suspension. I'd probably go for a HS3540 or the like, and keep the 18s thundersky set up.

Pros: Probably the most efficient build for hills at or under a 10% incline, convenient size, still has pretty awesome range with those 40ah batteries, hits my target speed on the flat, and is by far the cheapest option available to me.

Cons: Even at this weight (should come in at around 280 gross lbs) I'm not going to be charging up any steep hills any time soon. I'm guessing my limit will be in the 15% grade range with occasional sub 30 seccond spikes in incline that approach 20%. My weight will be high up on the bike, and my wheel base will be short, which is just asking for trouble if hit any snags, not to mention that it will create much more drag from wind resistance which will hurt my efficiency on the flat.


Build... Sideways?

The other option is to go for something in between, pick up two hs3540s and a seccond controller, but keep the 18s thundersky set up.

Pros: Get to keep my fancy suspension recumbent, reasonably decent performance / efficiency on hills at less than 20%, improved traction, and still a lot less expensive than building up.

Cons: It might be less expensive than the absurdly expensive build up option, but isn't going to be cheap either. It will require me to make some minor modifications to the front end fork so I can fit a standard 100mm dropout and will require the construction of some pretty hefty torque arms because the dirtbike forks take a through bolt.


So what do you guys think? I'd be sad to see the recumbent frame go, but it seems like the smartest thing to do is build down. Cheap but strong aluminum bmx frames are easy to come by on craigslist, and it wouldn't be too difficult to get one ready. I could conceviably also add a bmc torque motor to the recumbent, loose regen, and just resign myself to crawling along at a top speed of 25mph, but that doesn't seem terribly appealing either. If I was smart about it, I would have just gone for something like the build down option from the get go, loaded up on lipo or a123s untill I hit about 100v at 16ah, and ran an ht3525, but alas it appears highly unlikely that I am going to find anyone who wants to trade $900 worth of thundersky cells for $900 of lipo.

 

[Drunkskunk]

I can't think of anywhere in the world where you would need to ride up a 20% grade for 45 minutes. Except a treadmill. The steepest mountain roads are very rarely over 7% except in short stretches.


I'm also a bit confused as to how a 5302 hits 60mph on only 60V of battery. No load speed maybe? Or while going down a 20% grade for 45 minutes?

 

[Spicerack]

You have another option. More complicated, more work but may be a much better solution for your needs. Mid drive going through the gears. Use the hub you already have and adapt your frame?

And seriously- 60mph with coaster brakes? Are you craaaaaaaaazzzeeeeeeee???

 

[Indubitably]

Well, 60 is a bit of an exaggeration, but 54mph is my top theoretical speed according to the ebikes.ca simulator when you enter the 68.5v open circuit voltage of my pack hot off the charger. I have of course, never gotten anywhere near that speed, nor will I, because I prefer to keep my brain matter fairly well localised about the top of my head. Its probably wise not to underestimate this thing's top speed though, 54.2 is the theoretical Max in a 20 inch rim; with a larger rim and a decent fairing I have no doubt that I could in fact break 60mph at 60v. Granted, the bike would probably tear itself apart with vibration, but it would get there. You can see why this is a problem for me though, the 5302 is good for one thing and one thing alone, and that is turning a 90lb 12 year old on a 16 inch bmx into a lipo-fire-kamikaze pilot. Personally, I chicken out at about 35, so its all wasted speed after that.

A mid drive system is a possibility, but one that I would prefer to avoid. One of the main appeals of an ebike for me is the simplicty of a hub motor. I don't realy even want to resort to a geared hub unless it proves absolutely necessary, but that may very well be what it comes down to.

As for there being no hills above 30%, you should try biking in San Francisco some time. In fact, this bike was originally conceived with the intent of riding from Santa Cruz to San Francisco via skyline Blvd. I have since moved to San Diego for school where things are a bit more flat, but I do intend to return to the bay area some day and put the bike through its paces.

 

[nicobie]

All you really need to do is get rid of that 5302. Sell it and get something reasonable like a 9c or ht3525.

 

[Brentis]

All you really need to do is get rid of that 5302. Sell it and get something reasonable like a 9c or ht3525.

+1

One other option is to put that motor in a 16" rim.Then it would be a ripper & relatively controller friendly.


I remember when you bought this a few months ago. I wanted & had the cash, but didnt pull the trigger in time.
Thought you knew what you were getting into with this high speed/ low inductance (right?) motor.
It is a controller killer in a 26"wheel.

I would be interested in trading/purchasing this from you if you decide to go that route.
My intention is 14" moto rim/tire knobbies or slicks.

I have a Hx3540 in a 20" rim & 2.125" tire. I would be willing to do a partial trade+ $, with you on if you go the H series route.
Here's a Hx3540 20" vs. 26"





Let me know which way you go.

 

[John in CR]

The problem is gearing and battery choice. 40ah Thundersags are simply not going be be able to go fast AND climb steep hills without variable gearing. Hills and fast are already a difficult proposition. You have what is probably the most powerful hubmotor ever made by Crystalyte other than Markcycle's motorcycle hubbie, and now that the 5302 is long out of production there are actually reasonably priced controllers capable of driving it, but Thunderskys simply aren't up to feeding it properly.

John

 

[Doctorbass]

Pm me if you want to sell it!

I know how to make them run the way i want :wink:

Doc

 

[Brentis]

Pm me if you want to sell it!

I know how to make them run the way i want :wink:

Doc

Hey Doc stay off my lawn.
Don't you have enough motors to play with.

 

[Indubitably]

Doc:

You must have me confused with someone else if you remember me buying this motor a few months back, because its probably been a couple of years since I purchased it. I got it from an outfit called "sound speed scooters" up in Washington, where they were billing it as a "3kw moped hub motor", and all I really knew at the time was that it was too fast for the mopeds the guy was building, even at 36v. Fast at low voltage seemed good to me, because I already had my eye set on the tunderskys (at the time I didn't really understand what I was getting into, so watt hours per dollar was my only real concern), and it was the very last one he had, so I dropped something like 500 bones without really even bothering to check what else was available and it wound up sitting on a shelf for about a year before I did anything with it.

At any rate, yeah, I was planning to sell or trade it for something anyway. An HS3540 might just about do the trick in an 18 inch rim, but I would really like something more torque than the 20" hs3540. I could probably work with a 22inch ht3525 for that matter too. Either way it would get me on the road at a reasonable speed and leave the option for an upgrade to a dual hub system open. anyway, I'll send you a pm tomorrow, and we can see if we can't come to a mutually beneficial arrangement.

 

[Brentis]

Doc:

You must have me confused with someone else if you remember me buying this motor a few months back, because its probably been a couple of years since I purchased it. I got it from an outfit called "sound speed scooters" up in Washington, where they were billing it as a "3kw moped hub motor", and all I really knew at the time was that it was too fast for the mopeds the guy was building, even at 36v. Fast at low voltage seemed good to me, because I already had my eye set on the tunderskys (at the time I didn't really understand what I was getting into, so watt hours per dollar was my only real concern), and it was the very last one he had, so I dropped something like 500 bones without really even bothering to check what else was available and it wound up sitting on a shelf for about a year before I did anything with it.

At any rate, yeah, I was planning to sell or trade it for something anyway. An HS3540 might just about do the trick in an 18 inch rim, but I would really like something more torque than the 20" hs3540. I could probably work with a 22inch ht3525 for that matter too. Either way it would get me on the road at a reasonable speed and leave the option for an upgrade to a dual hub system open. anyway, I'll send you a pm tomorrow, and we can see if we can't come to a mutually beneficial arrangement.

It wasnt Doc having confusion, it was I.
I think you will be very happy with a Hx3540 or 9c 2806 in a 20" or smaller wheel.
Hx3540 is somewhere between a 5303&5304 speed /wind wise IIRC. Just not able to sustain long hilly bursts of 3-5kw as well as the much heavier X5.
This is Hx3540 in a 20"Bmx rim 16s5p a123 26650 with 35amp C-lyte cntrlr.
[youtube]x-IzxWa_y-w[/youtube]

Let me know if you are interested in a trade. I throw some additional cash @ ya.

Doc, I hope I didnt insult you in a previous post, just kiddin' about cuttin my grass.
Dibs

 

[Doctorbass]

Doc:

You must have me confused with someone else if you remember me buying this motor a few months back, because its probably been a couple of years since I purchased it. I got it from an outfit called "sound speed scooters" up in Washington, where they were billing it as a "3kw moped hub motor", and all I really knew at the time was that it was too fast for the mopeds the guy was building, even at 36v. Fast at low voltage seemed good to me, because I already had my eye set on the tunderskys (at the time I didn't really understand what I was getting into, so watt hours per dollar was my only real concern), and it was the very last one he had, so I dropped something like 500 bones without really even bothering to check what else was available and it wound up sitting on a shelf for about a year before I did anything with it.

At any rate, yeah, I was planning to sell or trade it for something anyway. An HS3540 might just about do the trick in an 18 inch rim, but I would really like something more torque than the 20" hs3540. I could probably work with a 22inch ht3525 for that matter too. Either way it would get me on the road at a reasonable speed and leave the option for an upgrade to a dual hub system open. anyway, I'll send you a pm tomorrow, and we can see if we can't come to a mutually beneficial arrangement.

It wasnt Doc having confusion, it was I.
I think you will be very happy with a Hx3540 or 9c 2806 in a 20" or smaller wheel.
Hx3540 is somewhere between a 5303&5304 speed /wind wise IIRC. Just not able to sustain long hilly bursts of 3-5kw as well as the much heavier X5.
This is Hx3540 in a 20"Bmx rim 16s5p a123 26650 with 35amp C-lyte cntrlr.
[youtube]x-IzxWa_y-w[/youtube]

Let me know if you are interested in a trade. I throw some additional cash @ ya.

Doc, I hope I didnt insult you in a previous post, just kiddin' about cuttin my grass.
Dibs

no prob :wink:

 

[Indubitably]

Heh, yeah, looks like I was the one that got confused there for a min. At any rate, the motor is clearly going to be better off in the hands of someone who will make good use of it, but there are probably any number of guys here who fit that description, so I'm going to make a legit post in the used for sale section, and see what people have to offer. I'm not necessarily looking to get rich off this thing, but I would like to use the opportunity to get as close as I reasonably can to a dual hub setup.

 

[Indubitably]

The problem is gearing and battery choice. 40ah Thundersags are simply not going be be able to go fast AND climb steep hills without variable gearing. Hills and fast are already a difficult proposition. You have what is probably the most powerful hubmotor ever made by Crystalyte other than Markcycle's motorcycle hubbie, and now that the 5302 is long out of production there are actually reasonably priced controllers capable of driving it, but Thunderskys simply aren't up to feeding it properly.

John

Yeah, I'm thinking I'll just say to hell with it and drop another 4 cells on this unwieldy behemoth so I can hit 72v, then go for dual ht3525s in a nice fat tire, maybe even throw some oil in the hubs, and resign myself to awesome range on the flat at low speeds with occasional short bursts of hill climbing at up to 15%. One of my favorite things about this bike is that I've got a good 5 inches of travel in the shocks when I want it, and just plain dig the hell out climbing over curbs and what not head on like it was nothing, so that extra traction and low speed torque is starting to look mighty appealing.

If I had been smart I would have looked into why so many people were buying lipo and headway cells despite the price premium, before committing to these batteries, but cest la vie. Maybe I will figure out something better to do with these thunderskies at some point, and then upgrade to 100v of 16 ah lipo or the like, redub my bike "the stump grider", and promptly proceed, with extreme prejudice, to tear about the neighborhood like a proper hooligan.

 

[Brentis]

If you are set on dual hubs, let me make a suggestion.
Now, spit in me eye if this crinkles your forehead.

Drop the idea of dual H3525, too heavy, pedal cogging nightmare.
Consider instead a pair of geared MAC hubbies in an appropriate wind.
Or a H3525 on the rear and a MAC up front, as a helper.

You have discovered one of the major limitations in eBike building, weight.
With two MAC's & lipo you would have a completely different feeling bike.
Dare I say one to be enjoyed. :wink:

Dont buy & put more T-Sag's on that bike. Much to heavy & cumbersome.
Save them for energy storage or to throw @ zombies.

Lets get back to basic ?'s
How far? How fast? How hilly? How much do you weigh? Whats your preferred riding environment?
& lets get a pic of your bike, so we can make suggestions on equipment & placement.

Best of luck on your build.

 

[Alan B]

Two hubmotors are interesting but expensive, heavy and complicated. Especially in a dual suspended bike. By the time you pay for dual HTs and dual controllers and solving the other issues you will have spent enough to fund many different other choices.

You might consider selling the Thunderskys. One good hubmotor and Lipos would make your bike what it should be.

The Cromotor is a lot less expensive than dual H series motors. The Cromotor is light for its power level at 10kg, so not heavy compared to the duals or the heavy Xlytes. Power wise it is roughly similar to (maybe a bit better than) dual 9c's so a bit less than dual HT/HS's. It will behave differently depending on the power you feed it via controller settings. It was designed to be a solid reliable commuter motor with good power, but it can be a rocket if fed enough power, that's just the nature of good electric motors.

Lipo is nice since you can buy a small pack and add to it later. You can start out with a smallish pack and add as needed.

If you have a dual suspended recumbent that is working for you, then you have a near ideal bike for efficiency, range and comfort. Give it the motor and battery best suited to complete it! Lighten it as much as you can to maximize its capability. Perhaps upgrade the brakes too.

 

[Indubitably]

If you are set on dual hubs, let me make a suggestion.
Now, spit in me eye if this crinkles your forehead.

Drop the idea of dual H3525, too heavy, pedal cogging nightmare.
Consider instead a pair of geared MAC hubbies in an appropriate wind.
Or a H3525 on the rear and a MAC up front, as a helper.

You have discovered one of the major limitations in eBike building, weight.
With two MAC's & lipo you would have a completely different feeling bike.
Dare I say one to be enjoyed. :wink:

Dont buy & put more T-Sag's on that bike. Much to heavy & cumbersome.
Save them for energy storage or to throw @ zombies.

Lets get back to basic ?'s
How far? How fast? How hilly? How much do you weigh? Whats your preferred riding environment?
& lets get a pic of your bike, so we can make suggestions on equipment & placement.

Best of luck on your build.

The advice is much appreciated; as with so many other things, the more I learn about building bikes the more I begin to realize just how little I know about building bikes, but the more I learn, the more fun it becomes to make an ass of myself. I'm still not keen on a geared hub though, as much as I like the idea of what they have to offer in terms of versitility and economy over diverse terrain, I've yet to see one with the kind of power or mechanical resilliance I'd like to see. If I ever do a serious pedal assist tour bike with sheer efficiency in mind I'm thinking a 500w geared hub motor and about 10lbs of lipo is exactly the rout I would take, but for my own use, I'd like to put the bike through a little more abuse than a Mac looks like it could take.

I think you're right about the thunderskys though. I've been trying to pound a square peg into a round hole ever since I got these things, and they're basically dragging my build around by the nose because I can't come to terms with the fact that I dumped so much cash into them. They certainly do have their advantages, its just that none of those advantages are compatible with this bike. I'm thinking that where they really want to be is in the basket of a heavy duty low speed mid drive cargo trike, where their bulk just makes for better traction, and their high capacity can shine without being overshadowed by their sag issues.

For the time being however, the the thunderskys will suffice, and I can always swap them out for lipo later on, so I'm thinking I should move forward by purchasing a motor that is ideal for the build that best suits this bike. I'm still thinking high torque direct drive is the way to go, but I'll start with a single motor. It'll be slow at 60v, but it will get me down the street, which is my primary goal right now since this bike is my only means of transportation aside from the bus. I'd like my range to be somewhere on the order of about 40 or 50 miles round trip at comfortable power levels, which is to say that I should get at least that much with a lead foot (or hauling my groceries back from the super market and the like), and probably twice as much with deliberate conservation if I need to travel. Reasonably frequent low grade hills (up to 5%) should be expected, but only as a cautionary measure. I'm not living in a mountainous area at the moment, but I'm not living on the praire either, and I don't want to find myself completly trapped by the occasional 10% grade.

The other, and perhaps in its own way more important consideration, is fun factor. For me this doesn't mean speed, but it does mean thrust, and durability. I don't need to go fast, maybe around 30mph max, but I do want to be able to zip around, climb over obstacles effortlessly, and just generally be able to take routs you wouldn't be able to conveniently get away with on either a human powered bike or in an IC vehicle (there are a lot of canyons in San Diego that are only accesable on foot or by bike, but would literally cut your commute in half if you could cross them). That's where the seccond hub comes in, it will give me the extra traction and hill climbng power to rally around town and inject some fun into my every day chores.

At any rate, I'll try to get a picture up some time soon but the bike is long, pretty low to the ground, and weighs about 70lbs dry (no battery, rider, or motor). There is a place where I could put pretty much all the battery weight smack dab in the center of the bike's wheel base at barely more than a foot from the ground, but I need to be able to controll the shape of the pack to use it, so pouches are looking like the best bet.