I need a light enduro frame for next build....

[fatty]

How long did you spend typing that up? You did not even address topic at hand. "
Lets try again. I asked: "I need a light enduro frame for next build....".
Thoughts?

FYI Florida is a sand bar. Of the 800 miles or so of Florida National/State Park forest roads, 50% of them are packed sand:

The other 50% are loose sand: Standard MTB tires do not do well on these

He did address the topic, it's just that this discussion has already raised and debated all the available answers.

Not looking for speed

Also want fat rear tire.

The fat bikes we both mentioned fit 26"x4.0" fat tire at least, and with that tire and speed, a full-suspension enduro frame isn't desirable.

Continuing to ask the same question that's already been answered comprehensively won't get you a different answer.

 

[pullin-gs]

He did address the topic, it's just that this discussion has already raised and debated all the available answers.

Not looking for speed

Also want fat rear tire.

The fat bikes we both mentioned fit 26"x4.0" fat tire at least, and with that tire and speed, a full-suspension enduro frame isn't desirable.

Continuing to ask the same question that's already been answered comprehensively won't get you a different answer.

You missed "I want enclosed battery ".
And markz DID NOT address topic. Instead markz offered suggestions for a motor and lectured me on type of riding I will/will-not be riding and about old fat donut eating floridians. WTF?
That said, yours/others' frame recommendations/discussions (Not markz's!) were very helpful! Thank you.
I had to dump the enduro frame. No options I like.
Thanks everyone for input on this! I researched and ended up going with recommended hard-tail MTB frame format.
This is the baseline I am leaning towards for this build (I'm tossing the included crankset):
https://www.framedbikes.com/products/framed-minnesota-2-0-x5-crankset-fat-bike-frame-kit.
Frame head is straight 1-1/8", so good suspension options are limited. Given my budget, this is not an issue anyway. Will go with "lock-out" capable light-duty MTB fat fork.
Tentative Motor: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001314078195.html
Motor might actually work with 26" wheel. KV@52v with 5/1 reduction puts wheel RPM at 338. Speed is 28MPH. Under load will be less.
Pack (for above motor) is 21700 14s5P build: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32833790728.html?spm=2114.12010615.8148356.8.7ade78bdVxwEhD
Controller will be generic 60V 1500-2000W....dont want/need console, PAS, sinewave. Have had good luck with three 48V 1000 in the past three builds.
Rims/spokes/tires/head/crank/etc. get decided on after I receive motor and frame.

Thanks all.

 

[fatty]

You missed "I want enclosed battery ".

You had already given up on enclosed battery here:

Change of plan: Looking at fat MTB options now that have 190mm offset.
Mongoose Hitch fat MTB ($300 bike from walmart...ditch everything but frame) steel donor frame would work in pinch.
Having trouble finding 26 inch wheel 19-inch Aluminum with 190mm offsets.
Would have liked to go this route, but is only 170mm offset:
https://www.framedbikes.com/products/framed-minnesota-2-0-x5-crankset-fat-bike-frame-kit

Frame head is straight 1-1/8", so good suspension options are limited.

Serious question: why buy and build a new frame with such an incompatibility? I would understand if you already had the frame or got it free, or if you were building around a cruiser or boardtracker only offered in 1-1/8", but what makes the Framed Minnesota more desirable than a used co-op bike?

 

[Chalo]

Frame head is straight 1-1/8", so good suspension options are limited.

Serious question: why buy and build a new frame with such an incompatibility?

I think it's weird that you'd consider a feature built into millions of bikes thirty years ago, and built into millions of bikes today, would represent any kind of incompatibility. If it really is true that good sus forks are hard to find in that configuration, then it's obviously the forks that are incompatible.

 

[pullin-gs]

Serious question: why buy and build a new frame with such an incompatibility? I would understand if you already had the frame or got it free, or if you were building around a cruiser or boardtracker only offered in 1-1/8", but what makes the Framed Minnesota more desirable than a used co-op bike?

Nothing incompatible about it. You have a frame with a non-tapered head, you buy a straight fork.
I did not say I was going to try to shoehorn in a tapered fork into the non-tapered frame.
$150 for a very light frame with a good history is a pretty good starting point that does not break the bank.
Also, there are not many used options out there for 170mm wide rear dropouts.
I considered buying a new cheap donor MTB (Mongoose Hitch), however most of the components would be written-off as not-usable in the end only to end up with a steel frame?
I would have to spend upwards of $600+ for a good entry-level fat-bike with some components (crankset, brakes, maybe even fork, tires, groupset) that could be reused.

 

[fatty]

Frame head is straight 1-1/8", so good suspension options are limited.

Nothing incompatible about it.

I hope you can see how this can be confusing, if trying to provide constructive feedback.
If you to leave open the option to have good suspension, and you correctly identify that good suspension options in 1-1/8" are limited, that would seem to be definitively incompatible.

 

[fatty]

I think it's weird that you'd consider a feature built into millions of bikes thirty years ago, and built into millions of bikes today, would represent any kind of incompatibility. If it really is true that good sus forks are hard to find in that configuration, then it's obviously the forks that are incompatible.

Good suspension forks are hard to find in 1-1/8" for the same reason they're hard to find with rim brakes: there are quantitatively better standardized solutions for new product design.
The rest of the world has moved on -- so should you. Or, keep ignoring reality and troll on...

 

[madin88]

I think it's fair to compare the geared fatbike motor to the next closest thing markz mentioned (Leaf 1500W).

The fatbike motor is lighter by about five pounds. That's significant, but it comes with tradeoffs. It's less efficient, so easier to overheat, and it rejects heat a lot more slowly than the Leaf motor. At 85Nm max torque, it has about 20% less than the Leaf's maximum, and more risk of heat damage when using its torque to the utmost.

This Motor, the Bafang RM G062.1000W is not as bad as you might think. I had one in hands which i need to open so i could take a closer look.
It is 18N20P outrunner with double curved magnets (probably to make BEMF more sine?), and it has almost no drag, yes the lowest drag i have ever seen on a geared hub motor! At least when spinning it by hand it does feel like being a DD.

The gears look strong (way larger in width as those from MAC Motor) and overall it seems like the 1000W/85Nm are a conservative rating, but did not do any measurements like measuring no-load consumption or resistance.

One downside is the 12mm axle which might be a bit too weak for what it is capeable (would be cool if Bafang would make similar torquearm as GMAC with the option of a locked clutch and regen), and that it needs fatbike frame with 175mm whereas the Leaf or MAC can be installed in frames with 135mm.

I only can recommend this motor and more people should give it a try (the G062 type).

 

[pullin-gs]

I think it's fair to compare the geared fatbike motor to the next closest thing markz mentioned (Leaf 1500W).

The fatbike motor is lighter by about five pounds. That's significant, but it comes with tradeoffs. It's less efficient, so easier to overheat, and it rejects heat a lot more slowly than the Leaf motor. At 85Nm max torque, it has about 20% less than the Leaf's maximum, and more risk of heat damage when using its torque to the utmost.

This Motor, the Bafang RM G062.1000W is not as bad as you might think. I had one in hands which i need to open so i could take a closer look.
It is 18N20P outrunner with double curved magnets (probably to make BEMF more sine?), and it has almost no drag, yes the lowest drag i have ever seen on a geared hub motor! At least when spinning it by hand it does feel like being a DD.

The gears look strong (way larger in width as those from MAC Motor) and overall it seems like the 1000W/85Nm are a conservative rating, but did not do any measurements like measuring no-load consumption or resistance.

One downside is the 12mm axle which might be a bit too weak for what it is capeable (would be cool if Bafang would make similar torquearm as GMAC with the option of a locked clutch and regen), and that it needs fatbike frame with 175mm whereas the Leaf or MAC can be installed in frames with 135mm.

I only can recommend this motor and more people should give it a try (the G062 type).

I ordered this motor over the weekend. A positive note regarding axle is it is solid. Cables do not run through center, but instead pop out side of motor through slot in middle axle section (wider than 12mm axle) that is protected inside frame dropouts.

Regarding stator laminate stack: are the slots scewed? It sounds like this is a slotless motor architecture (does not "cog")?
Last month I started thread on bafang 1000w g062 motor in technical ebike section. Could you post your observations and pictures there? There is zero information on this motor right now and others/I would find your comments very useful
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=109866

 

[Chalo]

I think it's weird that you'd consider a feature built into millions of bikes thirty years ago, and built into millions of bikes today, would represent any kind of incompatibility. If it really is true that good sus forks are hard to find in that configuration, then it's obviously the forks that are incompatible.

Good suspension forks are hard to find in 1-1/8" for the same reason they're hard to find with rim brakes: there are quantitatively better standardized solutions for new product design.
The rest of the world has moved on -- so should you. Or, keep ignoring reality and troll on...

I suggest that suspension manufacturers' refusal to accommodate common standard bicycle frame features is more evidence that their products are toys and not tools. No need to standardize something that was never meant to last.

 

[madin88]

I ordered this motor over the weekend. A positive note regarding axle is it is solid. Cables do not run through center, but instead pop out side of motor through slot in middle axle section (wider than 12mm axle) that is protected inside frame dropouts.

Yes it seems they changed the axle from G060 to G062, but i find that 12mm is undersized for this power (1000W class) and probably needs stronger than usual torquearms.

Regarding stator laminate stack: are the slots scewed? It sounds like this is a slotless motor architecture (does not "cog")?

No, the stator is not skewed, but the magnets have that double round shape which might have something todo with cogging (and BEMF i guess).

 

[markz]

Cogging may have to do with the gap between the magnets.

Gap to do with FF
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48753&p=1115980&hilit=magnet+gap#p1115980

Gap, talks about cogging drag.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=49583&p=734939&hilit=magnet+gap#p734939

Search Justin_Le and magnet gap

 

[pullin-gs]

Very good information all.....thanks everyone.
It's rim lacing time.
I'm leaning towards 26" Origin8 80mm 36h rims. Inexpensive and readily available.
My last two builds used 20" Crystal Lite rims (36H, 5mm drilled) and 13G straight spokes.
Thoughts on 14G (straight) spokes for this build.....or am I nuts?
I weigh 175, bike build is looking to come in under 60lbs.
What about front wheel? Just go with 36H also or get a 32H rim/hub?

 

[madin88]

I would use Sapim Strong 13/14GA spokes with polyax brass nipples

 

[pullin-gs]

I ordered this motor over the weekend. A positive note regarding axle is it is solid. Cables do not run through center, but instead pop out side of motor through slot in middle axle section (wider than 12mm axle) that is protected inside frame dropouts.

Yes it seems they changed the axle from G060 to G062, but i find that 12mm is undersized for this power (1000W class) and probably needs stronger than usual torquearms.

Regarding stator laminate stack: are the slots scewed? It sounds like this is a slotless motor architecture (does not "cog")?

No, the stator is not skewed, but the magnets have that double round shape which might have something todo with cogging (and BEMF i guess).

I just received the motor today (that was fast!). Heavier than I expected.
It is VERY smooth. Zero cogging. The only brushless motor I have ever owned that did not cog was a brushless "slotless" NeuMotor rc airplane motor.

 

[pullin-gs]

Done!
This build turned out FANTASTIC!
Motor pushes through florida sand with ease.
Motor KV much higher than specs state, so had to drop change pack from 14S5P to 12S6P Samsung INR21700 50G cells.
Vendor sent me 20" motor (I ordered 26"motor).
Maximum speed is 33.0 MPH flat no wind.
Amps hard-limited to 35A (specs state 50A...WTF) by generic controller.
Just under 1600watts maximum power.
I'll put together a build report in another post.
First ride was yesterday....I went 10 miles on&off road with no issues.