LightningRods mid drive kit

[Mammalian04]

Nice Mike. Are you selling the completed cyclone kit now?

Is the whole setup any skinnier than the Small Block?

If so, I'd like to get one fitted to a Qulbix Q76. I can drop ship a frame to you if you need one in the shop play with. Do you think it would be a quieter application than the Small Block?

 

[LightningRods]

Nice Mike. Are you selling the completed cyclone kit now?

Is the whole setup any skinnier than the Small Block?

If so, I'd like to get one fitted to a Qulbix Q76. I can drop ship a frame to you if you need one in the shop play with. Do you think it would be a quieter application than the Small Block?

I tried to put together a deal with another vendor to offer complete upgraded Cyclone kits but it fell apart. I'm going to continue with that on my own. I can offer a lightning-rodded Cyclone as fast as I can get the base kit here from Paco, which is usually about a week using air freight.

The 1800-3000 (I'm calling my modded version "Hurricane" kits just to relate to Cyclone and not to have to use the number designation) motor alone is about the width and power of the small block motor. With the addition of the planetary reduction next to the motor the overall width is slightly more than the Big Block. It's as wide as it can be and still fit inside of the pedal crank arcs on the 148mm BB axle.

I don't think that the Hurricane will be quieter or more powerful than the Small Block. They should be comparable in power and noise level and the Hurricane will be less money.
I can definitely install one on a Q76 for you and would love to have one in the shop to check out. Ship away!

 

[Mammalian04]

Nice Mike. Are you selling the completed cyclone kit now?

Is the whole setup any skinnier than the Small Block?

If so, I'd like to get one fitted to a Qulbix Q76. I can drop ship a frame to you if you need one in the shop play with. Do you think it would be a quieter application than the Small Block?

I tried to put together a deal with another vendor to offer complete upgraded Cyclone kits but it fell apart. I'm going to continue with that on my own. I can offer a lightning-rodded Cyclone as fast as I can get the base kit here from Paco, which is usually about a week using air freight.

The 1800-3000 (I'm calling my modded version "Hurricane" kits just to relate to Cyclone and not to have to use the number designation) motor alone is about the width and power of the small block motor. With the addition of the planetary reduction next to the motor the overall width is slightly more than the Big Block. It's as wide as it can be and still fit inside of the pedal crank arcs on the 148mm BB axle.

I don't think that the Hurricane will be quieter or more powerful than the Small Block. They should be comparable in power and noise level and the Hurricane will be less money.
I can definitely install one on a Q76 for you and would love to have one in the shop to check out. Ship away!

Sounds good Mike. I'll get one coming to you. Ziva from Qulbix says shipping is looking around Mid to late January now.

 

[LightningRods]

I'll have the shop cleared out by then.

I'm finishing up the last of the regular Small Block and Big Block mid drive orders now. We are currently shipping orders under 60 days old and should be completely caught up, no backlog at all, by the end of January.

I have about a dozen Luna drives to build. I have all of the parts except for the new stainless steel hub for the White Industries freewheel. The hub is designed and will be produced as soon as my machinist gets back from his Christmas vacation.

I have an awesome Utah Trikes fat tire tadpole recumbent that I'm going to build a custom behind the seat big block drive for. This brand new trike is already equipped with a Rohloff. I'll be starting a build thread for it in January.

I also have a gorgeous Foes Mutz full suspension fat bike that I will be building a custom lightweight small block for. All new bracket designs made from sheet 6061 alloy. This is also worthy of a build thread.

Finally I have an Xtracycle cargo bike that I'm building a mid bike drive for to be used on the Facebook campus in California.

It's nice to be busy.

 

[Mammalian04]

It's nice to be busy.

That does sound busy Mike! Looking forward to the build threads.

 

[Marin]

A dozen Luna's that's awesome, I hope we get at least a few build threads out of that, and more with other styles of drive for that frame.

Best for the holidays and keep up the good work,

cheers Todd,

 

[LightningRods]

I hope that more frame builders will catch on to the idea that the ideal place to locate the drive motor and reduction on an electric bike is between the bottom bracket and rear wheel. Driving through the bottom bracket is just a matter of necessity on most bicycles. It's better to avoid doing that if possible.

Best wishes for a very merry Christmas eve!

 

[Nelsjourney]

Can anyone assist me with connectors. Mike has 3 wires (Green, Yellow, Blue) that come out of his motor and connect to the Lyen controller. I want to use the cargo bike with LR kit in the city. When I park the bike I have to remove the controller and battery(CA3, and other accessories on the handlebar have been removed with the exception of throttle and brake levers).

Can anyone tell me which is the best connector for those wires. Mike connects them with nuts and bolts. I was thinking of an XLR but cannot find one that comes with pigtails. Then I was thinking of an RCA style connector which is easy to connect and disconnect.

Can anyone recommend something more practical and longer lasting?

I have found a U lock that locks his motor to downtube for another level of security.

 

[LightningRods]

The good connectors are usually considered to be 5.5mm gold bullets. They're not terribly easy to connect and disconnect but certainly easier and better than the bolts.

 

[Nelsjourney]

Thanks Mike. Just put the order in.

 

[scorpionice]

Anyone wants to buy my small block? I Only got maybe 20miles on it or less. Mike is going to provide me the new version of the brackets so it's going to be almost new. I'll sell it with the lyen controller (upgraded). Let me know if anyone is interested. Merry Christmas. Cheers

 

[Mammalian04]

Hey Scorpionice, if it is going back to Mike to be upgraded first, I am interested. Shoot me a PM with details.

 

[Nelsjourney]

Hello Mike. Can you help me with this question on the LR kit.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/2u0EDO1BTwA[/youtube]

 

[John Bozi]

Hello Mike. Can you help me with this question on the LR kit.

[youtube]2u0EDO1BTwA[/youtube]

No, it is not meant to be like that, you lost the grub screw. Lucky it didn't bounce into your 219 chain like mine did.

Maybe from a design point of view is there a way to get more engagement / depth to this grub screw? It is rather shallow.

Nelson I made a plastic ring to hold it down in case it flew off.

Also check your motor grub screws.

 

[Nelsjourney]

John Bozi:

Thank you. I will definitely check those screws before I lose another one.

 

[Nelsjourney]

John I just saw your Youtube video where your grub screw got caught in the chain. I saw that video before and didn't see that screw till now that I saw your video again. That is the exact screw that I lost. Luckily it fell completely off and I have to order another one versus getting stuck like yours and damaging parts.

When I get them from Mike I will buy some loctite and put some on the groove of the screw.

 

[Nathan]

I like Paco a lot. Many of his products are very good quality, especially for the price. The brackets on the 1800-3000 kit are simply terrible. I could tell by looking at them that they wouldn't work.

I've had a run of 20 sets of my upgraded brackets made. I am also going to offer other upgrade parts. I'm sure that there will be a lot of people playing with this motor. It's so much more powerful and much quieter than the original Cyclone planetary motor.

I think the problem with the new cyclone motor is the size and weight, its a lot bigger and hence heavier then the first 1680w motor, maybe 1kg more ?

Also it has only 5:1 reduction in the gearbox vs the original 9.3:1, and hence lower KV so the original one has a lot higher magnet speed and hence efficiency. Some people were talking about the efficiency in this thread and how it can be up to 89%
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65757&start=350

when you add the fact the motor has a lower KV 122 vs 167kv astro you need less reduction for a mid drive, hence it probably has higher overall driveline efficiency then a 93% efficient Astro motor for a mid drive ! This is mainly due the higher torque density at lower RPM of the IPM magnet design. Not sure if the new motor has this IPM design also ?

So on column R i can see the cyclone motor efficiency peaks at 89.95% and peak power at this efficiency is 5980w, is that running 72v ? wow thats a lot of power from such a small motor! and the efficiency is very similar to the ASTRO motors of 3210 8t has 93% efficient but at a low lower power of 1219 W and the 3220 4t has 93% efficiency but at low peak power of 2830w is that true ?

But also if you factor in the ASTRO motors have a higher 169 KV they will probably be running higher RPM and hence you would need more reduction and maybe another reduction stage which adds weight and hence the efficiency looses would be worse compared to the cyclone 122 kv. As others have said this can be 5 to 10% losses per reduction stage, so when used as a mid drive or direct to the rear wheel with one stage reduction the cyclone motor may have overall higher efficiency possible than these 2 common Astro motors if you add the gear reduction losses

 

[LightningRods]

At 10 lbs with the reduction gearbox and alloy mounting brackets the new larger Cyclone motor is not all that heavy. The lower kv will help reduce the 'dentist drill' whine that the small Cyclone was notorious for. Also like most small motors making big power, including the Astro motors, the small Cyclone has a tendency to get hot.

 

[Mammalian04]

Mike, will The Hurricane have a temp sensor?

On a separate not, has there been any interest in using the Grin FOC controller or new Kelly FOC controller for reducing noise and smoother operation? If i inderstand correctly, FOC is sine wave and should provide those benefits. If grin is willing to test the motors (cyclone and/or big block) and document correct settings, I'd cover the cost of those motors to get the right settings published.

 

[LightningRods]

Mike, will The Hurricane have a temp sensor?

On a separate not, has there been any interest in using the Grin FOC controller or new Kelly FOC controller for reducing noise and smoother operation? If i inderstand correctly, FOC is sine wave and should provide those benefits. If grin is willing to test the motors (cyclone and/or big block) and document correct settings, I'd cover the cost of those motors to get the right settings published.

I specifically asked Paco about a temp sender and he replied that it was "not possible". I'm sure that what he meant was "too much trouble". Unfortunately it is a bit of a time consuming PITA to wire up and install. It's not a money maker. I do plan to make it available regardless. I just need to pop the motor case open and figure out where to locate the sender.

I'll talk to Justin and the guys at Grin about sending motors up to them for testing. I trust them. They're already working on a couple of types of torque sensing that I'm eager to incorporate into my kits.

A couple of people bought Adaptto controllers and didn't have any luck getting them set up. The Adaptto people are 0.0% helpful. I also have difficulty getting specific tech information out of the motor factory. Some of the terms probably don't translate well.

 

[Mammalian04]

Mike, will The Hurricane have a temp sensor?

On a separate not, has there been any interest in using the Grin FOC controller or new Kelly FOC controller for reducing noise and smoother operation? If i inderstand correctly, FOC is sine wave and should provide those benefits. If grin is willing to test the motors (cyclone and/or big block) and document correct settings, I'd cover the cost of those motors to get the right settings published.

I specifically asked Paco about a temp sender and he replied that it was "not possible". I'm sure that what he meant was "too much trouble". Unfortunately it is a bit of a time consuming PITA to wire up and install. It's not a money maker. I do plan to make it available regardless. I just need to pop the motor case open and figure out where to locate the sender.

I'll talk to *Justin and the guys at Grin about sending motors up to them for testing. I trust them. They're already working on a couple of types of torque sensing that I'm eager to incorporate into my kits.

A couple of people bought Adaptto controllers and didn't have any luck getting them set up. The Adaptto people are 0.0% helpful. I also have difficulty getting specific tech information out of the motor factory. Some of the terms probably don't translate well.

I agree about Adaptto's interest in support for Mid-Drives. I have a number of Adapttos and like them but have little problem moving on after giving them the opportunity to engage. Hopefully they are using the avoided opportunity cost to make their Hub Motor focused product and support even better. I still have hub motors so that would be great.

Moving on though, It really seems to me that proper weight distribution with Mid-Drive is the better trade-off solution where budget, design, and performance requirements allow. Sounds like a plan with Grin. I appreciate that you already have a relationship with *Justin at Grin. I am happy to cover the cost of the Mid-Drive motors you send to them for testing all they way to a toasty demise. Hopefully knowing the limits of those motors will be helpful in determining other cool things we can stick these motors in. It is great that we have a resource like Grin that donates they time and resources to the community for things like this. You don't see that often in for profit businesses unless they have long term benefits of that goodwill really planned out well!

Back on core topic, Mike sent me the revised Big Block kit for my Motobecane Fat Bike. With Chalo's help, I have a Nuvinci N171 rear IGH hub laced into a Surly Rear wheel. I will get going on installation soon (recent shoulder surgery). It will start out at 48v but I will take it up to 60v or 72v when Luna Cycles gets their new packs in.

Can't wait!

*edits

 

[LightningRods]

The guys at Grin are one of the cornerstones of the ebike industry. None of us would be where we are today without their devotion.

The performance of the small motor has been explored more extensively than the big block. The big block requires controllers and battery packs outside of the normal envelope to push it's limits. The small motor has been run extensively at 40 amps 100V and holds up very well. It's also been pushed over 50 amps but it's efficiency really starts dropping off fast. Since the big block is essentially two small blocks siamesed together in one case I think we can expect close to twice the wattage or in the range of 8,000 to 10,000 watts peak. It would be fun to know for certain.

 

[dekes1]

I like Paco a lot. Many of his products are very good quality, especially for the price. The brackets on the 1800-3000 kit are simply terrible. I could tell by looking at them that they wouldn't work.

I've had a run of 20 sets of my upgraded brackets made. I am also going to offer other upgrade parts. I'm sure that there will be a lot of people playing with this motor. It's so much more powerful and much quieter than the original Cyclone planetary motor.

I have some finishing and countersinking to do and then this run of brackets is off to the plating shop to be hard black anodized.

That's great news! Cash in hand ready to order as soon as you say the word! Actually, i really don't care about the anodizing so i'd be willing to purchase the bracket kit without. Will this show up on your website once it's ready for ordering?

 

[Mammalian04]

EDIT: I wrote "Jason" instead of "Justin". I caught my mistake and corrected it but this Jason had already quoted it.

Fixed - sorry, I thought I recalled someone named Jason there when you mention it. I must have been thinking of another shop.

Since the big block is essentially two small blocks siamesed together in one case I think we can expect close to twice the wattage or in the range of 8,000 to 10,000 watts peak. It would be fun to know for certain.

Yes, that would be good info on limits but the other info Justin gathers for his simulator is also useful (e.g. X,000 watts for yy minutes on 4% grade before heat saturation).

My deeper interest is to have the manufacturer of a sine wave controller (e.g. Grin FOC) "properly" tune the controller for the motor at a couple common setups. For Justin's controller, it is then just a matter of saving a .xml file in a wiki database that he is already working on setting up. Fany at Kelly Controllers is another option but I'd rather check in with Justin first if he has interest. I think the Grin is MUCH more configurable (maybe to a detriment) and that may enable some advantages for tailoring to a specific application but cost is a bit higher. A tier of sorts would be good to have:
1) $$$ Grin - FOC, quiet, highly configurable, upgradeable firmware
2) $$ Kelly - FOC, quiet, but not firmware upgradable
3) $$ Lyen Infineon - Square Wave - plug and play, thoroughly tested by end users

***the above thoughts are are just my own brainstorming and should not be considered accurate***

 

[Marin]

I'll talk to Justin and the guys at Grin about sending motors up to them for testing. I trust them. They're already working on a couple of types of torque sensing that I'm eager to incorporate into my kits.

A couple of people bought Adaptto controllers and didn't have any luck getting them set up. The Adaptto people are 0.0% helpful. I also have difficulty getting specific tech information out of the motor factory. Some of the terms probably don't translate well.

Good to know I've been wondering about adaptto, I'm glad I don't need to spend to find out.

I've been wondering if it would be an idea to send my motor to Grin on it's way to me to see if they can set up a amber phasrunner for it, can you believe how cool that would look on the Luna, I'm also interested in the torque sensing options,

Seems like there are a few of us who would be part of the experiment if you need it,