LightningRods mid drive kit

[John Bozi]

Etrailster,

You need two bikes. Get yourself a cheap hub motor hard tail, for the downtime days.

 

[spinningmagnets]

...I rode the motor to lock up at full throttle dozens of times, had thousands of carelessly hard starts, towed people up hills...So, my motor has been losing power. It just doesn't pull nearly as hard anymore and torque loss seems to be accelerating

If you overheat the motor, the magnets will lose strength, and...the weaker they are, the more sensitive they are to heat. With a mid-drive, you are supposed to shift down to the gear that the system can maintain speed and still keep the RPMs up without getting hot. If it's getting hot, you didn't shift down to a low enough gear.

If you didn't program a cycle analyst to limit amps when it gets warm, consider getting a $12 remote thermometer with a digital read-out.

http://electric-fatbike.com/2015/06/07/installing-a-temperature-sensor-in-the-bbs02-unit/

 

[John Bozi]

Anyone know if this sprocket would work with stock freewheel on LR?

Instead of joining it to the LR adapter, putting it on the opposite side of the freewheel...

http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=66

I checked my measurements but I am not sure how they were measured and the LR adapter blocks one of each pair of holes.

I like this sprocket because it has that bend away which maybe maybe might not need so much of bushing or spacer....

or is this a bad idea?

I am trying to find a solution to chainring nut clearance.... (the wider bb in square taper will probably open up its own kettle of problems.)

 

[cheekybloke]

Anyone know if this sprocket would work with stock freewheel on LR?

Instead of joining it to the LR adapter, putting it on the opposite side of the freewheel...

http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=66

I checked my measurements but I am not sure how they were measured and the LR adapter blocks one of each pair of holes.

I like this sprocket because it has that bend away which maybe maybe might not need so much of bushing or spacer....

or is this a bad idea?

I am trying to find a solution to chainring nut clearance.... (the wider bb in square taper will probably open up its own kettle of problems.)

I chopped out the middle of this sbp motor drive ring to use as final drive on my big block.
then drilled and countersunk it to take m8 bolts.
No snapping bolts anymore.
Darren

 

[BoomerChomsi]

Any news about mounting brackets for Qulbix 76R?

Thank you! 8)

 

[Föppel]

hey guys, im back from a ride with my Smallblock at 3500W. It was awesome.

I have made a detailed list in my photo+Video-tread (klick in my signature below) about the Parts we use at 3000W and what you have to consider when going twice the rated power of a LR-Kit :wink:

please write me when i have missed some points and i will edit it.

 

[John Bozi]

Since Foppel is doing bike porn...

Mine's off duty but the 64 does look sexier...

 

[Föppel]

looks nice!

 

[LightningRods]

Every so often I realize that I haven't gotten a post notification in a couple of weeks. I don't know what causes this. By the time I wake up there are usually several pages of posts. There are enough of these L-R mid drives out in the world now (around 200) that there should be something to talk about without my help.

As usual I've been head down trying to get work done. I'm completely caught up on regular mid drive orders with no backlog at all. I'm currently finishing up the last of the mid bike drives that will fit the Luna Cycle frame. I've been working for nearly a year to get that drive sorted and in production. I don't know if there will be more Luna drives in the future but fortunately this drive design also fits cargo bikes, cruisers, recumbents and kustoms perfectly. I'm nearly finished with drives for the Utah Trikes "Fat Tad" fat tire tadpole, the Ruff Cycles "Tango", the Xtracycle "Edgerunner", and the Madsen cargo bike. The Surly "Big Dummy" mid bike drive is already in production.

Another project that I'm really excited about is a Foes "Mutz" full suspension fat bike. If you've never seen a Foes you are missing something. They are spectacular. I've had this Foes in my design room for two months, looking at it and dreaming about reinventing the front mount mid drive. I plan to start a build thread very soon showing how I plan to put the power to this awesome fat bike.

Jason S. is sending me his brand new Qulbix 76r for a mid drive. The 140r drive is finished and just waiting for parts for my new 15mm diameter chrome moly jackshaft axles and the new stainless steel driver chainrings. The Qulbix kits will be equipped with White Industries freewheels on the chainwheels. As the power keeps climbing, the driveline parts keep getting stronger and better.

David Ayers has already received the first production big block kit for the Sonders Storm. It's been fashionable to make fun of this hugely successful crowdfunded bike, but I I was very impressed with the frame that I worked with. It's going to be an awesome bike with more than 10x the power it was delivered with. These are not Walmart Dolomites.

In addition to all of these other projects I'll be working on getting the power from my drives reliably to the rear wheel. When I started this project three years ago the mid drive was the weak point. Now the weak point is the final drive sprockets/chain and the rear hub. I'll be working on that this summer. If we have to machine motorcycle strength hubs from blocks of 6061 aluminum or stainless steel, we will.

Thanks again to all of my friends and supporters who have kept me going over the last three years. This has been a great adventure.

Mike

 

[John Bozi]

Mike sent me a replacement solid shaft that was about to try to install.

You guys helped me with the heat on chainring nuts idea, but have tried heat and wd40 on this cracked bent shaft with jammed keys, not budging.

I wish I had a smaller bearing puller.

Am I missing something simple? Is the bore adapter thing softer alu that could be drilled out and replaced or should I go shell out for a bearing puller?

thanks for any tips.

Edit

maybe just saw the whole lot off? since they are probably mangled beyond repair....

 

[LightningRods]

I've removed stuck pulleys and sprockets by threading a short bolt (M6 in this case) into the end of the shaft. I hold the sprocket with two fingers behind the teeth and beat the shaft out of the sprocket. This definite works best if you can remove the complete jackshaft assembly from the mid drive first.

The center adapter is mild steel.

 

[John Bozi]

Thanks Mike,

I rummaged through old emails and got this where you explained how to remove the shaft:

The jackshaft axle is held in by a larger diameter center shoulder on the axle. The bearings press fit into the aluminum housing and hold that shoulder in place. In order to remove the old axle you need to use the axle to drive one of the bearings out. You can do this by striking the end of the axle with a plastic or wood shop mallet while holding the housing in your hand. You can also hold the housing and strike the axle onto a solid but padded surface like a carpeted floor or a block of wood with some shop cloths over it. It may take some work but there is nothing but a press fit holding the bearings in place. I have the luxury of using a 20 ton shop press with special jigs I’ve built for doing this.

To reinstall the axle, slide the new axle through the bearing that remains in the housing and then slide the new bearing into place. You will need to support the bottom end of the housing in a way that keeps the bearing in place but allows the axle to pass through. I use a 30mm thick steel plate with a 12mm hole drilled in it. You then need to use a deep socket or a length of pipe that is the diameter of the outer steel race of the bearing to drive the bearing back into the housing. Make certain that the socket or pipe has sufficient length that you’re not hitting the end of the axle on the inside. Drive the upper bearing in flush with the housing. If the axle turns hard after installation give the axle a few taps on the end until one of the bearings moves out enough to allow free rotation.

If the axle doesn’t want to slide through the bearings take a piece of emery cloth and polish the machined end of the axle. My machinist is obsessive about tight clearances. The shaft is machined to the correct diameter and then the 4mm keyway and spring clip grooves are cut in. Those cuts often create shoulders and sharp edges that hang up until they are polished down a bit.

I am still a noob to understanding this sorry.

Step 1 do I undo the collars or the tensioning bar screws out? or does everything stay on the bike as is. So I just remove primary freewheel, hit on that side...

I just imagine that hitting the axle with the kit on the bike might bend brackets or something.

Finally is the adapter and key your custom job or can I obtain these off the shelf somewhere with a specific name to google up.... same with the sprocket name = I'd like to be able to buy these myself if you move to a tropical island one day.

Thanks again.

 

[LightningRods]

As I said above, remove the jackshaft assembly from the drive before wanging on it.

The adapter is 3/4" steel round stock that comes with a 4mm keyway cut in it. I bandsaw off lengths of it and then have a 12mm hole lathe bored into the center. It's very basic stuff.

It's funny that you should mention a desert island. I find myself thinking about that more and more.

 

[John Bozi]

Out of our Epic ride the part I enjoyed the most was getting to overtake my hub motor mate again.

Under 3kw, my lighter bike with larger wheels, saw me get to the top of this rough steep section at under 50 degrees, as opposed to his bogged in a rut 110 degrees.

[youtube]F1-DcwzNVTo[/youtube]
[youtube]pmpEaaK4YeI[/youtube]

 

[Leebolectric]

haha, take that Hubbie! \m/ \m/

 

[John Bozi]

We're on final approach for the first production run of mid bike drives for the Luna Cycle. All of the parts are pouring in.

On the right is the original aluminum hub with ACS freewheel and 12mm axle. On the left is the new stainless steel hub with deep keyway, White Industries HD freewheel and 15mm hardened 4140 chrome moly axle. Both have my laser cut 40T #219 secondary sprocket. These are some pretty trick parts and totally necessary to stand up to the brutal power of the big block motor. More photos soon as I put the first four drives together.

When I looked at these a while back I thought they were tough bling for your luna pursuits. I now came across them with different eyes.

My first question is (since you would need new bearing widths) does the housing need to be different? (housing for lack of better words the part that holds the bearings and gets collars screwed to the sheets.

If it is a different dimension is it still the same (I guess) alu?

Can you make me a shaft that is about a centimetre longer on one side so that the bb freewheeling mechanisms can be spaced out away from the wider big block motor?

And finally way out there, what about just going that bit extra to a 19mm shaft if all else may have been redesigned so that we can do away with thin shaft to sprocket adapters? We wouldnt need free floating keys. Since the sprockets you use are broached....

thanks. I may have to put away or send back the new solid shaft I have if u can get me one longer on one side...

 

[LightningRods]

Yes I designed a completely different housing for the White Industries to allow for the different flange offset and the internal shoulder on the threads. I've been having them machined from billet T303 stainless steel. The sprocket offset ends up exactly where it was with the ACS and the previous hub.

I'm not following why you would need a longer jackshaft axle. But yes I can have a longer one made along with a batch of production shafts.

19mm axle diameter is too large to fit my current alloy housings. There isn't enough difference in the bearing I.D. and O.D. The bore in the standard 219 driver is .750", just slightly larger than 19mm. The largest shaft diameter that will fit my current housings is 15mm. Changing the housing diameter throws off just about every part on the top end of the drive.

So yes I can provide you with a hub for the White Industries freewheel and yes I can have a longer jackshaft axle made if you need it. You shouldn't need it because of the revised offset of the hub.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Bozi,

Under 3kw, my lighter bike with larger wheels, saw me get to the top of this rough steep section at under 50 degrees, as opposed to his bogged in a rut 110 degrees.

Gadgets: I see you measure temp with a Fluke? temp sensor. You could tell a more accurate story if you would acquire and use a digital level to measure hill steepness.


How about under 30% grade? I measure my slopes with a digital level using % grade as RO. You know the giveaway as to the real steepness in your GoPro video is that trees usually grow close to plumb.

 

[John Bozi]

Bozi,

Under 3kw, my lighter bike with larger wheels, saw me get to the top of this rough steep section at under 50 degrees, as opposed to his bogged in a rut 110 degrees.

Gadgets: I see you measure temp with a Fluke? temp sensor. You could tell a more accurate story if you would acquire and use a digital level to measure hill steepness.


How about under 30% grade? I measure my slopes with a digital level using % grade as RO. You know the giveaway as to the real steepness in your GoPro video is that trees usually grow close to plumb.

50 degrees celcius vs 119 degrees celcius is the crucial information here. We rode the same terrain. I waited for him for about a minute not sure what he was doing down there while I stopped pulled out a cold beer and measure my temperatures.

I also have the CA on my bike (he doesnt have one) my temperatures are always 5 degrees cooler on the CA. So there is a discrepancy but.....

As for grades there is no ebiker I have seen push there bike on video for steepness. And to prove that I know what I am talking about when it comes to estimations I rode out to 31% the steepest on record in my city. My bafang could do it. The LR would do it 3 times faster without blinking.

Traction is the limiting factor.

[youtube]duR-vGb6HCE[/youtube]
Gower Street has a slope of 31% or an angle of 17.4 degrees.

 

[John Bozi]

Yes I designed a completely different housing for the White Industries to allow for the different flange offset and the internal shoulder on the threads. I've been having them machined from billet T303 stainless steel. The sprocket offset ends up exactly where it was with the ACS and the previous hub.

I'm not following why you would need a longer jackshaft axle. But yes I can have a longer one made along with a batch of production shafts.

19mm axle diameter is too large to fit my current alloy housings. There isn't enough difference in the bearing I.D. and O.D. The bore in the standard 219 driver is .750", just slightly larger than 19mm. The largest shaft diameter that will fit my current housings is 15mm. Changing the housing diameter throws off just about every part on the top end of the drive.

So yes I can provide you with a hub for the White Industries freewheel and yes I can have a longer jackshaft axle made if you need it. You shouldn't need it because of the revised offset of the hub.

I am not that interested in the WI for the primary, more interested the thicker shaft and

I need to space the bb outwards because the chainring / chain hitting the kit. If I space this area outwards the chain line to jack shaft is wrong (so does to the rear but can probably deal with that)

the silver line is the 104 bcd nuts, if they don't hit first, the chain will hit. At the start of a ride without spacers they clear, after a bit of riding and more load there's enough play to start hitting again. Only solution I see is to space it outwards by at least 4mm (more than that and the cranks could fall off.

Actually the new solid jackshaft is just that correct bit longer than the old hollow one, but because now it uses clips, the usable length is the same.

Small block users would not face any of these issues with my BB width.

thanks for your previous answers.

EDIT

Never mind the longer shaft (for now), I played around with all the bits and pieces again and once again realized that the sprocket is not retained by a screw or clip (only the adapter is).

The adapter and sprocket are the same length and that's what keeps getting me. Ideally they should be 100% supporting / overlapping each other.

I am now hoping that if the sprocket overhangs outwards by a few mm (the exact part where the teeth are taking most the force) without the adapter under that bit, things won't warp....

 

[DingusMcGee]

WTF? No gates belts anywhere for the LRSB? The LR Parts store is out -- has none to ship to me? Other belt dealers are out of stock for at least 3 weeks until their supplier does a run.

I wonder is the belt the safety weak [too weak?] link in the drive train? Or does most every LR Small Block buyer get many belts and create an artificial shortage?

This out-of-stock situation means no riding my LRSB bike for what is looking to be 5 weeks. If I wanted to putt around town I see there are some 15mm wide Gates belts for purchase but the OEM is 25mm wide. The 15mm wide would be a tender safety link.

Hospitals use statistical methods applied to demand history and purchasing lead times to have a 96% assurance level of having an item. No such monitoring like this anywhere with these belts to get even a 66% assurance level -- one standard deviation.

And so much for American Made -- and apparently NO JIT inventory control going here either.

 

[r3volved]

I bought an extra belt shortly after 1000km but I still haven't changed it at over 2000. The stock belt still looks pretty new! The belt was my biggest fear coming from a gng...it's a no-contest comparison.

 

[LightningRods]

WTF? No gates belts anywhere for the LRSB? The LR Parts store is out -- has none to ship to me? Other belt dealers are out of stock for at least 3 weeks until their supplier does a run.

WTF indeed. I have no idea what you're going on about. I received 25 belts from my supplier yesterday. They're holding another 75 belts in stock for me at their warehouse. Because of the volume I buy from them they make 100 at a time and ship in batches of 25.

These belts last a very long time. Especially on small blocks.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Mike,

here is the paper trail:

10 days ago:

Hi Mike,

please send a PayPal invoice for:

2- 5MR535-100 gates belts at $40.00 each = $80.00

1- 25mm wide GT Pulley set 18T and 90T $60.00

shipped to my Paypal address.

Thanks,

Dennis

8 days ago:

Hi Dennis,

I just rec’d your E-S message. I did get this email. I’m low on belts. I placed an order for more on Monday and was waiting for a reply from the vendor before responding to you. They still have not responded. I’ll gladly fill your order as soon as they restock me.

Thanks,
Mike

8 days ago:

Good enough!

You now say you have 25 in stock as of yesterday. Please then, invoice me [dennishorning@gmail.com ]for one belt. I took some dial measurements and do not need the pulleys.

These belts last a very long time. Especially on small blocks.

178 miles since I put the new Small Block on the Fat Bike. I guess serious hill climbing may be hard on the belts. Mine is torn inward on each side and slips when on the small pulley and trying to accelerate.

Thanks,

Dennis

 

[DingusMcGee]

Latest email from Mike,

This does not belong on the E-S thread. Please take it down and I'll send you a PayPal invoice.

Yes Mike it does belong on here. It represents customer feedback to the public & you.

It is time we be open about what we buy and the service we get.