LightningRods mid drive kit

[Föppel]

yeah man, they look and feel much more beefy!

i knew from many others here on ES that the old axles will bend when give them to much hate.
With my relatively low reduction, the old axle still last about 2000Km on 2500-3000W.
Really happy now after done the upgrade. weakest link in my system now got Heavy-duty.


New weakest link may be the Freewheel-Hub. Its a vision hub with pawls, it still works great, but a DT-Swiss with the ratchet-system would give me more peace of mind.

also have to build a mudguard, the whole kit was filled with dirt





to Mike and Matt, very interesting "reduction meets overdrive" conversation. Its what i tought, and felt when riding our different LR-Bike-Setups.

im searching for a good way to make a robust Freewheel on a rearhub for my next project, a (frame)-build from scratch. wondering if the ultra HD-FW from SBP would be a good joice for 4000-5000W... not sure, maybe the DT Swiss would be the better joice for handling much torque.?

Arrivederci gentiluomo

 

[eMTBHunter]

I noticed you said you all are running SRAM X9 and X0 with good success. Are you using the standard 10 speed clusters with a 10 speed chain or have you modified to get to 9 speed for a beefier chain?

I'm interested in getting a clutched derailleur and X9 is on my list but I was worried about moving to a thinner chain.

 

[eTrailster]

Unfortunately no, the press fits are usually on nicer bikes. There is no real advantage to them and a number of disadvantages. I hope they die soon.

Torque, horsepower, watts, power, work. I've read the descriptions of all of them over and over. They're the same- but different.

power is completed work or Torque X speed. Torque is static pressure. Many watts can be applied through a given system while minimizing torque. Torque is static pressure specifically. Typically, torque is where the problems lie not watts.

Torque is not a "static pressure".

Angular momentum and angular velocity are static pressures (conserved) - unless acted on by an outside force providing torque (dis-equilibrium) in an otherwise static system

Torque is the rate of change in angular momentum. By definition, either or both angular momentum or angular velocity are in flux or torque is zero.

Torque is to angular velocity as acceleration is to linear velocity. It's a first order derivative.

 

[recumpence]

Unfortunately no, the press fits are usually on nicer bikes. There is no real advantage to them and a number of disadvantages. I hope they die soon.

Torque, horsepower, watts, power, work. I've read the descriptions of all of them over and over. They're the same- but different.

power is completed work or Torque X speed. Torque is static pressure. Many watts can be applied through a given system while minimizing torque. Torque is static pressure specifically. Typically, torque is where the problems lie not watts.

Torque is not a "static pressure".

Angular momentum and angular velocity are static pressures (conserved) - unless acted on by an outside force providing torque (dis-equilibrium) in an otherwise static system

Torque is the rate of change in angular momentum. By definition, either or both angular momentum or angular velocity are in flux or torque is zero.

Torque is to angular velocity as acceleration is to linear velocity. It's a first order derivative.

Yes, but no-one understands those terms. On the most basic level, torque is pressure applied to a mass. If pressure is place against a wall, force is being applied. This is similar to torque and easy for most people to easily comprehend. However, if no movement is occurring, than no work is accomplished. This is the best illustration I can give. Where my illustration breaks down is the fact that the wall is not changing velocity. Normally torque is applied to a moving object (or a stationary object that will begin moving with that application of torque). So, yes, you are correct in the purest sense of the word. However, for the average person, it is best to use the basic explanation that torque is pressure, while power is pressure (torque times velocity).

Also, most people do not understand angular momentum versus velocity. (angular momentum is rotation, whereas velocity is momentum in a linear [straight] direction).

Matt

 

[LightningRods]

Put another way, "Torque makes it go."

 

[recumpence]

Put another way, "Torque makes it go."

Ahh, yes, even easier to understand!

Matt

 

[eTrailster]

Mr. Edward Lyen hasn't answered my emails for two weeks now. So I wired my new motor to my old controller. When doing do, I realized that the 12awg motor phase wire leads from my old motor were aluminum or alum alloy rather than copper. The wires from the newer motor seem to be all aluminum and there are clearly less strands.

I'm no expert on wires, but this is what I found:

Aluminum has 60 percent less conductivity than copper. Therefore, a commonly used rule-of-thumb for converting the two conductor metals is to have aluminum two AWG sizes larger than copper for equivalency. Also, copper’s thermal conductivity is 92% versus that of aluminum which is nearly 49%. Aluminum expands and contracts with heat much more so than copper causing connection failures more frequently. And lastly, Aluminum oxidizes rapidly when exposed to air reducing it's conductivity and can cause a connection to overheat and fail.

Certainly there is an electrical engineer lurking about that can discuss this better than I. I am concerned that compared to the rest of the systems most of us run, the aluminum motor phase wires may be a performance bottleneck.

 

[ElectricGod]

Mr. Edward Lyen hasn't answered my emails for two weeks now. So I wired my new motor to my old controller. When doing do, I realized that the 12awg motor phase wire leads from my old motor were aluminum or alum alloy rather than copper. The wires from the newer motor seem to be all aluminum and there are clearly less strands.

I'm no expert on wires, but this is what I found:

Aluminum has 60 percent less conductivity than copper. Therefore, a commonly used rule-of-thumb for converting the two conductor metals is to have aluminum two AWG sizes larger than copper for equivalency. Also, copper’s thermal conductivity is 92% versus that of aluminum which is nearly 49%. Aluminum expands and contracts with heat much more so than copper causing connection failures more frequently. And lastly, Aluminum oxidizes rapidly when exposed to air reducing it's conductivity and can cause a connection to overheat and fail.

Certainly there is an electrical engineer lurking about that can discuss this better than I. I am concerned that compared to the rest of the systems most of us run, the aluminum motor phase wires may be a performance bottleneck.

Have you tried soldering to those wires? If you can solder to them, they are not aluminum. Maybe they are copper with a silver or tin cladding?

 

[eTrailster]

Have you tried soldering to those wires? If you can solder to them, they are not aluminum. Maybe they are copper with a silver or tin cladding?

Under magnification there is some copper in there, but nowhere near 50%. Silver coating is understandable, but tin or aluminum over copper would lead to faster corrosion, no?

 

[eTrailster]

Yes, but no-one understands those terms. On the most basic level, torque is pressure applied to a mass. If pressure is place against a wall, force is being applied. This is similar to torque and easy for most people to easily comprehend. However, if no movement is occurring, than no work is accomplished. This is the best illustration I can give. Where my illustration breaks down is the fact that the wall is not changing velocity. Normally torque is applied to a moving object (or a stationary object that will begin moving with that application of torque). So, yes, you are correct in the purest sense of the word. However, for the average person, it is best to use the basic explanation that torque is pressure, while power is pressure (torque times velocity).

Also, most people do not understand angular momentum versus velocity. (angular momentum is rotation, whereas velocity is momentum in a linear [straight] direction).

Matt

No Matt.
That is a gross, not a technical inaccuracy. No torque is applied by pressing on a wall. The fact that the wall does not change velocity means there is no torque. There isn't even an axis.

Perhaps turning a wrench or closing a door is a better simple analogy anyone can understand.

 

[recumpence]

Yes, but no-one understands those terms. On the most basic level, torque is pressure applied to a mass. If pressure is place against a wall, force is being applied. This is similar to torque and easy for most people to easily comprehend. However, if no movement is occurring, than no work is accomplished. This is the best illustration I can give. Where my illustration breaks down is the fact that the wall is not changing velocity. Normally torque is applied to a moving object (or a stationary object that will begin moving with that application of torque). So, yes, you are correct in the purest sense of the word. However, for the average person, it is best to use the basic explanation that torque is pressure, while power is pressure (torque times velocity).

Also, most people do not understand angular momentum versus velocity. (angular momentum is rotation, whereas velocity is momentum in a linear [straight] direction).

Matt

No Matt.
That is a gross, not a technical inaccuracy. No torque is applied by pressing on a wall. The fact that the wall does not change velocity means there is no torque. There isn't even an axis.

Perhaps turning a wrench or closing a door is a better simple analogy anyone can understand.

Whatever. Criticize my example all you want. Go ahead, keep speaking in terms no one understands.

Trust me, the average person has no clue what you are talking about. You have to give examples that illustrate what you are trying to convey in a manor people understand.

 

[LightningRods]

I've just started a new thread for my Qulbix builds. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=82938

 

[xnoitulos]

Many good topics going in this thread

im searching for a good way to make a robust Freewheel on a rearhub for my next project, a (frame)-build from scratch. wondering if the ultra HD-FW from SBP would be a good joice for 4000-5000W... not sure, maybe the DT Swiss would be the better joice for handling much torque.?

I'd say the DT Swiss star ratchet system is one of the best freehub ratchet designs. Unless you plan on running a multi-gear cassette system in back you would be best suited with the UHD freewheel. I'm currently running the UHD on the crank with over 4,000W. The only thing beyond the UHD freewheel in power handling for the rear wheel would be direct mount cog (6-bolt disc style), losing the freewheel action.

The LighningRods website states that the 3000w big block should be run "with a high power capacity derailleur". What make and model would that be?

There's some info on page 166, but basically you want a Shimano Shadow+ or SRAM Type 2. These models have a pulley cage that resists movement caused by the weight and action of the chain bouncing around. This helps keeps chain motion, slap, and derails to a minimum. Choose the brand that matches your shifter, not cross compatible.

Are you using the standard 10 speed clusters with a 10 speed chain or have you modified to get to 9 speed for a beefier chain?

I'm interested in getting a clutched derailleur and X9 is on my list but I was worried about moving to a thinner chain.

10 speed all the way. Getting the clutch derailleur is whats important, especially for off road application.

My question is, what's the smallest bicycle cog that can bolt onto the 5 bolt crank freewheel? I want to drop the primary reduction in exchange for continued reduction to the rear. I know I'll lose the ability to add my own pedal power (because the "cadence" will be too high), but it's irrelevant, and wouldn't mind if the gearing felt "granny" when not on the throttle.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Smallest 130-BCD 5-arm chainring I can find is 39T

Edit, he meant smallest sprocket that fits on the flanged freewheel (25T)

 

[LightningRods]

I'm currently making a 34t in stainless. I think that there is room around the flange on the 5 bolt freewheel to go down to about 25t in 1/2".

I'm really glad to hear that high power users don't care about pedaling with the motor. That makes this solvable. 2:1 overdrive to the rear wheel will give you a top pedaling speed of about 8-10 mph. So yes, just like a granny gear. I'm hoping that this will be low enough to keep from tearing things up. We can always go 1:1 on the final drive and cut the reduction to 8:1 for the motor.

 

[John Bozi]

My question is, what's the smallest bicycle cog that can bolt onto the 5 bolt crank freewheel?

24t exists from cyclone or sbp http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=65&osCsid=on1dd579u69416qbsf27g9di70

I've run it but must admit the teeth wear really quickly with Chinasteel and so little teeth. It's dam strong apart from the teeth.

EDIT: You may have trouble running this with 10sp chain. There is no info on what chain you are meant to use with it though. I just know 9sp chain was grabbing on and not wanting to let go. 1/2 obviously works with all their sprockets.

EDIT 2: If you go this small I ended up running into swingarm clearance / or a lot of slap at least for 24 to 20t.

 

[Föppel]

for a 1-speed setup i would take a 219 final + chain tensioner...
But if you go with bicycle-chain,take something bigger than 24T, like Bozi said.

i mostly use the 34T when riding offroad, but thats all a matter of taste (+ Reduction), i guess

to the chain-subject:
We use 9 speed SRAM, the cheapest ones, they are robust

to the dereilleur-subject:
SRAM X9 / X0, Shimano XT, all 9 speed, nothing modded from 10 to 9 speed, would not try that, a buddy tyed something similar with a 7 speed dereilleur + 9 speed shifter, (or was it the other way around) --> anyway, not so good

 

[LightningRods]

to the dereilleur-subject:
SRAM X9 / X0, Shimano XT, all 9 speed, nothing modded from 10 to 9 speed, would not try that, a buddy tyed something similar with a 7 speed dereilleur + 9 speed shifter, (or was it the other way around) --> anyway, not so good

The spacing between sprockets on a 7/8 speed is 5mm. The spacing between sprockets on a 9 speed is either 4.55mm or 4.34mm. You can't mix and match shifters between the two. 10 speeds are spaced even tighter than 9 speeds. I like the 7/8 speed layout because it allows more room for the thickest possible sprocket. We don't even need 7 speeds.

 

[izeman]

Same here. X9 with regular 9spd and kmc ebike chain. It's not a LR kit but a mid drive running 2.5kW, so you can compare it.

 

[eMTBHunter]

Thanks for all the feedback on the rear derailleurs. Seems like to get a clutched derailleur, plus the ability to run a 11-42T cassette, you have to use 10 or 11 speed setups. Otherwise I'd be perfectly content to stay at 8 speed.

Just swapped my chainring to a wolftooth 30T. So far it's an improvement in chain retention even without the clutched derailleur. They've also got a stainless steel version: http://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/products/104-bcd-stainless-steel-chainrings

 

[LightningRods]

The problem with 10/11 speeds is that the sprockets are even thinner than standard bicycle fare. They're prone to folding under load, even when it's just human power applied. If you can find a 9 speed with the spread you want those sprockets are thicker and stronger.

I'm working on my wide ratio seven speed right now. What do you guys think I should have for the tooth count for high gear? 20? 18? 16? I'm hoping to make a set of gears that are similar in overall range to a normal seven speed but with 2x the tooth count.

 

[Alan B]

Unfortunately no, the press fits are usually on nicer bikes. There is no real advantage to them and a number of disadvantages. I hope they die soon.

Torque, horsepower, watts, power, work. I've read the descriptions of all of them over and over. They're the same- but different.

power is completed work or Torque X speed. Torque is static pressure. Many watts can be applied through a given system while minimizing torque. Torque is static pressure specifically. Typically, torque is where the problems lie not watts.

Torque is not a "static pressure".

Angular momentum and angular velocity are static pressures (conserved) - unless acted on by an outside force providing torque (dis-equilibrium) in an otherwise static system

Torque is the rate of change in angular momentum. By definition, either or both angular momentum or angular velocity are in flux or torque is zero.

Torque is to angular velocity as acceleration is to linear velocity. It's a first order derivative.

Wrong.

Torque does not require motion or acceleration. It is force times radius. It is a twisting force. Think of your torque wrench.

 

[Alan B]

Mr. Edward Lyen hasn't answered my emails for two weeks now. So I wired my new motor to my old controller. When doing do, I realized that the 12awg motor phase wire leads from my old motor were aluminum or alum alloy rather than copper. The wires from the newer motor seem to be all aluminum and there are clearly less strands.

I'm no expert on wires, but this is what I found:

Aluminum has 60 percent less conductivity than copper. Therefore, a commonly used rule-of-thumb for converting the two conductor metals is to have aluminum two AWG sizes larger than copper for equivalency. Also, copper’s thermal conductivity is 92% versus that of aluminum which is nearly 49%. Aluminum expands and contracts with heat much more so than copper causing connection failures more frequently. And lastly, Aluminum oxidizes rapidly when exposed to air reducing it's conductivity and can cause a connection to overheat and fail.

Certainly there is an electrical engineer lurking about that can discuss this better than I. I am concerned that compared to the rest of the systems most of us run, the aluminum motor phase wires may be a performance bottleneck.

You are correct, aluminum wires are a poor choice for this application.

Copper wires are frequently tinned (or plated with a thin layer of tin) to reduce corrosion and promote good soldering and crimping connections.

As was previously pointed out, aluminum wires won't take solder normally, so this is one way to test them. Aluminum wires are also unsuitable for vibration environments as they work harden and crack. They would be a poor choice for a motor wire. They require special connectors and techniques to make reliable connections, and they tend to cold-flow so standard crimps and terminals don't work reliably over the long term.

These motor wires are more likely tin plated copper. When cutting the tin may smear and make it hard to assess the copper fraction.

 

[LightningRods]

The wires accept solder. They're tin plated copper.

Interesting insight about torque. If the resistance exceeds the the torque no motion happens. If the combination of resistance and torque exceeds the strength of the part caught in the middle of this conflict, the part will bend, twist or break. I'm trying to decrease torque and resistance at the problem points in addition to making the parts stronger.

 

[eMTBHunter]

The problem with 10/11 speeds is that the sprockets are even thinner than standard bicycle fare. They're prone to folding under load, even when it's just human power applied. If you can find a 9 speed with the spread you want those sprockets are thicker and stronger.

I'm working on my wide ratio seven speed right now. What do you guys think I should have for the tooth count for high gear? 20? 18? 16? I'm hoping to make a set of gears that are similar in overall range to a normal seven speed but with 2x the tooth count.

I'd think starting at 18 is reasonable given the elimination of some reduction on the chain secondary. I was out on mine today and for my particular purpose, 30 mph top end is plenty, and I spent most of my time in the 10-15 mph range on the trails.

What sort of derailleur are you contemplating? To be able to shift into 42+ tooth sprockets seems to require either something like the oneup radr cage or wolftooth goat link to modify a 10 speed derailleur, or an 11 speed mech designed for the wide range 11 speed cassettes.

I'm not any expert, but the only way I've seen folks be able to use those high tooth sprockets with a 9 speed cassette is by adapting a 10 speed mech with the correct movement ratio to a 9 speed shifter. And that still requires using something like the radr cage.

Another thought, what if we used a 10 or 11 speed, but beefed it up by having the largest diameter spacers that still allowed full chain engagement in the teeth of each sprocket? Maybe even weld it. Get it as close as possible to one solid block so the unsupported radius on each sprocket is minimized and that should significantly strengthen the sprockets as the highest bending force is going to be toward the center of each sprocket.