Mid-sized Motors = Pathetic Choices

[hallkbrdz]

2023 is half over. I've been waiting for some lighter, more efficient motors for years to no avail. If you need e-bike motors, I guess you're set. If you need automobile EV motors, you're definitely set and at a great price (used anyway). But in-between, really nothing interesting.

DHX Machines - Had a nice Hawk range, and then from what they learned on that were supposed to have production ready improved automated built versions called Peregrine. Still in alpha testing, look to be still hand produced. Maybe that will change, but when?

Yamaha - Made a big press release about their new compact efficient motors, and yet still nothing. Maybe they have something custom if you're some big OEM, but otherwise, nothing.

Various custom made options apparently also exist but with no end user purchase ability, such as MGM Compro, or Avid Technologies, now Turntide, or Saietta VNA. External rotor motors like Emrax just don't make sense for my use. YASA, well they are now owned by Merceeds Benz for mostly internal use from what I can tell since all specs and other information has been removed.

So you're choices left are basically Zero motorcycle motors (decent choice if / when you can get them). The Motenergy, HPEVS options - just too heavy to reasonably compete with 2-stroke speeds on racing karts. QS motors, don't get me started on those...

Maybe 2024 will be better, that would be a nice surprise.

 

[Chalo]

Why not a Mars 4201?

 

[hallkbrdz]

I should have stated the rated kW range I'm interested in. 17-23kW rated is the sweet spot. That's a Zero 75-7 on the low end and a Peregrine40 on the high end. The less weight the better, even if it costs much more. Water cooled so it can run in hot Texas or Arizona temperatures without issues. A motor cost of $3k-$5k is reasonable.

I'm looking for motors I can use for production electric sprint karts. Blue Shock Racing is using a HEAVY Motenergy ME1507/1905 @ 96v with a very conservative power application to try and keep it from cooking itself. Being air-cooled they don't recommend running that setup above 85F without pre-chilling the motor and battery (in Northern Europe that's generally not an issue).

Who knows, I may end up going vertical and building them in-house. Higher voltage for I2R efficiency with a SiC inverter. But I'm trying to avoid that cost to start with.

BTW, here's the target of the type of engine that this will replace. Gear reduced, single or multi-speed, lightweight 2-stroke with push button starting:

IAME X30 125cc TaG

iameusawest.com

 

[dominik h]

How about the new Sia155-64 with a selfmade watercooling ,
when they ever do a series production


SIA155-64 7000W rated 29kw peak PMSM Hairpin Motor CNC sample available.
96V 7500RPM 85N.mpeak

 

[hallkbrdz]

Dom thanks for the suggestion, but I'd rather buy a motor that will meet the requirements without modifications hoping it will still work out.

 

[dominik h]

Emrax 188 15-35kw 7kg 100V
Datasheet

 

[djsftree]

Hi! I'm working on a motor that might just suit your need.

NO20/Suralac9000 lasercut and bonded laminations
110mm dia , 120mm long stator
10 pole internal magents

Open to changing the housing to customer specific need.
I can machine the shaft with any output you may want.

Three motors should be running on the test bench mid September.

Here's some eye candy of the progress so far.

 

[hallkbrdz]

Emrax 188 15-35kw 7kg 100V
Datasheet

Like I wrote, an external rotor motor won't work. Your seat is directly next to the motor and your arm could easily get caught on it.

 

[hallkbrdz]

Hi! I'm working on a motor that might just suit your need.

NO20/Suralac9000 lasercut and bonded laminations
110mm dia , 120mm long stator
10 pole internal magents

Open to changing the housing to customer specific need.
I can machine the shaft with any output you may want.

Three motors should be running on the test bench mid September.

Here's some eye candy of the progress so far.

View attachment 337163

View attachment 337162

Thanks for the offer, keep me up to date on the dyno numbers.
I would however suggest working on cooling. You have a large area between to coil to leverage for a coolant channel that is much more effective at removing heat than doing it on the exterior of the stator. This is what DHX and Lucid do.

 

[hallkbrdz]

I've added a new candidate to the mix, and will talk with them on Tuesday. Saietta VNA with their AFT140i 96v. A little heavy, but the weight does include the controller:

Saietta VNA

saiettavna.com

 

[djsftree]

Thanks for the offer, keep me up to date on the dyno numbers.
I would however suggest working on cooling. You have a large area between to coil to leverage for a coolant channel that is much more effective at removing heat than doing it on the exterior of the stator. This is what DHX and Lucid do.

Several options from the server industry. Celsia make some really slim 1mm vapor phase units that i've used on CPUs before. Another option is high thermal conductivity potting resin. Huntsman have a few alumnia filled resins to spread the heat out to ends a little better.

I'll have a think for v2.

 

[djsftree]

Enclosure update. First journey of the water cooling is from middle of stator out to periphery. Happy to start a thread with regular updates.

 

[TorgueRPM]

QS has a couple options that fit those constraints. The QS138 V3 water cooled would probably do it. There are 70mm and 90mm rotor width options, and people have put 25kw peaks into the 70mm version.

 

[hallkbrdz]

I did find this not yet in full production Saietta AFT140i 96v motor which could fit the bill. Although a little heavier than I'd like, it does include the inverter in the liquid cooled motor unit, which is a nice touch packaging wise. I talked with one of their salesmen that used to race karts in the UK, so he understood the needs and what I am trying to do, which was quite refreshing. For now they are produced in the UK, so pretty pricey, but they plan to mass produce them in India next year to substantially lower costs and serve that huge domestic market.

Saietta Group

saietta.com

 

[hallkbrdz]

Enclosure update. First journey of the water cooling is from middle of stator out to periphery. Happy to start a thread with regular updates.

View attachment 337351

I think you should start a thread - looks like a really neat build.

Fancy multi-axis CNC you have there! Jealous.

 

[hallkbrdz]

I’m quite impressed with the new P40 specs. They cut 0.9 kg (2 lbs) of weight, down to 8.6 kg, lowered the cooling requirements, and cut the price quite a bit over the old Hawk motors (and this is the pre full-scale production price). No, not Chinesium Motenergy or QS prices, but very respectable for a Made in the USA product with solid specs.

Good enough to consider starting a business with I believe. One of my criteria was quality and dependability without excuses. Another was it has to be usable year round, including hot Oklahoma / Texas summer days in the 100’s without any dry ice cooling efforts required. I think between my new liquid cooled battery design and a solid water cooled motor, this is possible. Torture testing to follow soon…

Road trip to Georgia next month to acquire product and have in-person talks.

 

[djrmml]

Plettenberg Nova 30 or Nova 50 maybe interesting. There are some mentions about these motors here somewhere.

 

[DanGT86]

Hi! I'm working on a motor that might just suit your need.

NO20/Suralac9000 lasercut and bonded laminations
110mm dia , 120mm long stator
10 pole internal magents

Open to changing the housing to customer specific need.
I can machine the shaft with any output you may want.

Three motors should be running on the test bench mid September.

Here's some eye candy of the progress so far.

Do you have a thread for more info and progress on these motors? Nice looking work so far.