Mid-sized Motors = Pathetic Choices

hallkbrdz

hallkbrdz

100 W
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
239
Location
Edmond, OK USA
2023 is half over. I've been waiting for some lighter, more efficient motors for years to no avail. If you need e-bike motors, I guess you're set. If you need automobile EV motors, you're definitely set and at a great price (used anyway). But in-between, really nothing interesting.

DHX Machines - Had a nice Hawk range, and then from what they learned on that were supposed to have production ready improved automated built versions called Peregrine. Still in alpha testing, look to be still hand produced. Maybe that will change, but when?

Yamaha - Made a big press release about their new compact efficient motors, and yet still nothing. Maybe they have something custom if you're some big OEM, but otherwise, nothing.

Various custom made options apparently also exist but with no end user purchase ability, such as MGM Compro, or Avid Technologies, now Turntide, or Saietta VNA. External rotor motors like Emrax just don't make sense for my use. YASA, well they are now owned by Merceeds Benz for mostly internal use from what I can tell since all specs and other information has been removed.

So you're choices left are basically Zero motorcycle motors (decent choice if / when you can get them). The Motenergy, HPEVS options - just too heavy to reasonably compete with 2-stroke speeds on racing karts. QS motors, don't get me started on those...

Maybe 2024 will be better, that would be a nice surprise.
 
Why not a Mars 4201?
 
I should have stated the rated kW range I'm interested in. 17-23kW rated is the sweet spot. That's a Zero 75-7 on the low end and a Peregrine40 on the high end. The less weight the better, even if it costs much more. Water cooled so it can run in hot Texas or Arizona temperatures without issues. A motor cost of $3k-$5k is reasonable.

I'm looking for motors I can use for production electric sprint karts. Blue Shock Racing is using a HEAVY Motenergy ME1507/1905 @ 96v with a very conservative power application to try and keep it from cooking itself. Being air-cooled they don't recommend running that setup above 85F without pre-chilling the motor and battery (in Northern Europe that's generally not an issue).

Who knows, I may end up going vertical and building them in-house. Higher voltage for I2R efficiency with a SiC inverter. But I'm trying to avoid that cost to start with.

BTW, here's the target of the type of engine that this will replace. Gear reduced, single or multi-speed, lightweight 2-stroke with push button starting:

iameusawest.com

IAME X30 125cc TaG

iameusawest.com iameusawest.com
 
Last edited:
How about the new Sia155-64 with a selfmade watercooling ,
when they ever do a series production


SIA155-64 7000W rated 29kw peak PMSM Hairpin Motor CNC sample available.
96V 7500RPM 85N.mpeak
 
Last edited:
Dom thanks for the suggestion, but I'd rather buy a motor that will meet the requirements without modifications hoping it will still work out.
 
Hi! I'm working on a motor that might just suit your need.

NO20/Suralac9000 lasercut and bonded laminations
110mm dia , 120mm long stator
10 pole internal magents

Open to changing the housing to customer specific need.
I can machine the shaft with any output you may want.

Three motors should be running on the test bench mid September.

Here's some eye candy of the progress so far.

1690499115060.png

1690499038585.png
 
Last edited:
djsftree said:
Hi! I'm working on a motor that might just suit your need.

NO20/Suralac9000 lasercut and bonded laminations
110mm dia , 120mm long stator
10 pole internal magents

Open to changing the housing to customer specific need.
I can machine the shaft with any output you may want.

Three motors should be running on the test bench mid September.

Here's some eye candy of the progress so far.

View attachment 337163

View attachment 337162
Click to expand...
Thanks for the offer, keep me up to date on the dyno numbers.
I would however suggest working on cooling. You have a large area between to coil to leverage for a coolant channel that is much more effective at removing heat than doing it on the exterior of the stator. This is what DHX and Lucid do.
 
I've added a new candidate to the mix, and will talk with them on Tuesday. Saietta VNA with their AFT140i 96v. A little heavy, but the weight does include the controller:

Saietta VNA

saiettavna.com saiettavna.com
 
hallkbrdz said:
Thanks for the offer, keep me up to date on the dyno numbers.
I would however suggest working on cooling. You have a large area between to coil to leverage for a coolant channel that is much more effective at removing heat than doing it on the exterior of the stator. This is what DHX and Lucid do.
Click to expand...

Several options from the server industry. Celsia make some really slim 1mm vapor phase units that i've used on CPUs before. Another option is high thermal conductivity potting resin. Huntsman have a few alumnia filled resins to spread the heat out to ends a little better.

I'll have a think for v2.
 
Last edited:
QS has a couple options that fit those constraints. The QS138 V3 water cooled would probably do it. There are 70mm and 90mm rotor width options, and people have put 25kw peaks into the 70mm version.
 
I did find this not yet in full production Saietta AFT140i 96v motor which could fit the bill. Although a little heavier than I'd like, it does include the inverter in the liquid cooled motor unit, which is a nice touch packaging wise. I talked with one of their salesmen that used to race karts in the UK, so he understood the needs and what I am trying to do, which was quite refreshing. For now they are produced in the UK, so pretty pricey, but they plan to mass produce them in India next year to substantially lower costs and serve that huge domestic market.

Saietta Group

saietta.com saietta.com
 
I’m quite impressed with the new P40 specs. They cut 0.9 kg (2 lbs) of weight, down to 8.6 kg, lowered the cooling requirements, and cut the price quite a bit over the old Hawk motors (and this is the pre full-scale production price). No, not Chinesium Motenergy or QS prices, but very respectable for a Made in the USA product with solid specs.

Good enough to consider starting a business with I believe. One of my criteria was quality and dependability without excuses. Another was it has to be usable year round, including hot Oklahoma / Texas summer days in the 100’s without any dry ice cooling efforts required. I think between my new liquid cooled battery design and a solid water cooled motor, this is possible. Torture testing to follow soon…

Road trip to Georgia next month to acquire product and have in-person talks.
 
Plettenberg Nova 30 or Nova 50 maybe interesting. There are some mentions about these motors here somewhere.
 
djsftree said:
Hi! I'm working on a motor that might just suit your need.

NO20/Suralac9000 lasercut and bonded laminations
110mm dia , 120mm long stator
10 pole internal magents

Open to changing the housing to customer specific need.
I can machine the shaft with any output you may want.

Three motors should be running on the test bench mid September.

Here's some eye candy of the progress so far.
Click to expand...
Do you have a thread for more info and progress on these motors? Nice looking work so far.
 
hallkbrdz said:
I’m quite impressed with the new P40 specs. They cut 0.9 kg (2 lbs) of weight, down to 8.6 kg, lowered the cooling requirements, and cut the price quite a bit over the old Hawk motors (and this is the pre full-scale production price). No, not Chinesium Motenergy or QS prices, but very respectable for a Made in the USA product with solid specs.

Good enough to consider starting a business with I believe. One of my criteria was quality and dependability without excuses. Another was it has to be usable year round, including hot Oklahoma / Texas summer days in the 100’s without any dry ice cooling efforts required. I think between my new liquid cooled battery design and a solid water cooled motor, this is possible. Torture testing to follow soon…

Road trip to Georgia next month to acquire product and have in-person talks.
Click to expand...
How did you go with DHX? They look interesting.

I've been looking for a somewhat similar motor, 15kw peak and much lower duty cycle (observed trials bike). I keep coming back to the Plettenberg Nova 15 due to lack of alternatives.
I hunted out an old spec sheet on the Hawk 20 & it looks ballpark. I don't really need or want water cooling though. With the low duty cycle at high power and plenty of available metal in a gearbox/clutch housing I'm confident I can passively sink all the heat away.
 
DHX has high quality motors, but yes they are all water cooled. To get anything of that power density it will need to be water cooled as there isn't enough surface area without making the motor quite large to dissipate the heat with fins for even the continuous power rating. I think the P-20's are currently in the $3000 ballpark.
 
Some folks getting 50kw+ with the sotion mg138f water cooled. I think some guy is getting 60kw + with the QS180 80h.

I've been watching DHX for 3+ years and almost nothing on the peregrine line. I think the 40 or 60 was still $2500 USD or so.
 
TheRealJohnnyB said:
Some folks getting 50kw+ with the sotion mg138f water cooled. I think some guy is getting 60kw + with the QS180 80h.
Click to expand...
Do you have any examples of this? I am looking at the sotion/shinwin motors myself, trying to figure out what they are capable of and what kind of quality etc. I also have a qs180 90h, so it would be interesting to see it dyno over 60kw
 
Last edited:
j bjork said:
Do you have any examples of this? I am looking at the sotion/shinwin motors myself, trying to figure out what they are capable of and what kind of quality etc. I also have a qs180 90h, so it would be interesting to see it dyno over 60kw
Click to expand...

I've got a Sotion MG138F showing up in a few days... we'll find out. Haven't seen any dyno's of the QS180 90H...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top