Motor + controller advice >8kW (UK)

[Andy_L]

Hi, been reading lots of threads on here for the past week and learnt a lot but thought I would post up my problem for some help.

I am building some equipment for my home workshop and have been stuck by needing a 3 phase industrial motor up to 10kW but without 3 phase this is not going to happen. I realised I could run a 10kW single phase system so am planning a dedicated 45/50A supply for this project ad have a devised a way to power it.

I have been searching and reading until my head hurts and think I have a few options but am hoping to get some more suggestions.

My specs are:

Working RPM range: 2000-3200 (but am using a belt drive so this can be achieved through gearing)
Max torque at 3200 rpm: 25N.m (30 preferred)
Expected max. power 8kw with 9.6 available
Voltage: 48V
Current max: 200A

In-runner or out-runner type are both fine and a 12mm shaft would be the minimum but 12-20mm prefered. Ideally with a keyway or flat for the belt pulley. Sensored or sensorless - not sure which is best for me.

Water cooling would be desirable if possible but could go with forced air. It will be running for anything from 10 minutes up to several hours. (yes my electricity meter is going to be spinning but planning >12kW of solar on my new workshop).

Controller wise I need reliability over anything else. Some form of PC interface for RPM, power, temp, logging etc would be nice. Ability to have external RPM display, control and emergency stop would be good.

Budget wise I would like to hit the £300-400 mark for the motor and £200-350 for the controller. But I would also be willing to consider £700-1000 motors if it really was needed and would be from a very reliable source but that will blow my budget a bit.

I started out looking at the Rotomax 150 from Hobbyking but others have I been more recently looking at are:
Revolt 120 and 160 (look like a very good option, designed for paramotors so similar RPM and torque that I need, outrunner though so no water cooling)
Alien Power Systems (here in the UK) (ability to customise but only 12mm shaft, 1290s 80kv in currently £279 or sensorless for less. Outrunner style so should be good torque but unable to water cool)
Astro (looking at 3320 series, expensive at $695 + import and tax but look professional and seem highly regarded)
NeuMotors 4420/4425 (expensive at £900 but seem to be highly regarded)
Plettenberg (love the look of the Nova 15 with water cooling and have asked for a quite but expecting >£1000)
NT-power.EU (paramotor specific and looks awesome but no idea on price or availability, also have a good looking controller)
TP Power (same as Alien Power? but huge selection so got lost and would need to import)
Lehner Motoren (couldnt find anything suitable)

Controller wise I have not done much research but have looked at:
4QD (UK based and said to be reliable and have a 300A model that looks suitable)
Kelly controllers ( bit lost on what to select)

RC ones are tempting due to cost but I doubt they would be reliable enough.

Another option I have is to run 2 motors. My power supply would be capable of providing 2x 24V @ 200A or a single 48V @ 200A so could run them independently at 24V 200A or in parallel at 48V 100A if that would make a more reliable system but then I would need 2x controllers, belts, mounts and pulleys etc and I think I will get better power from one larger motor.

On a different note and will search for this in the other sections I am looking for poly-V belt pulleys. My usual suppliers in the UK have poly-V belts but no pulleys.

Any tips, advice and suggestions will be greatly received! I am having to learn all this as I used to race RC cars back in the days of brushed 540 motors and Sanyo 1700mAh SC-RC NiCd batteries! I remember trying to talk to people about the benefits of brushless but very few could see how much of a difference they would make back then.

 

[FluxZoom]

You and I are in very similar boats. I too seek out similar attributes. I empathize strongly with your feeling like your head will explode, I've been looking this subject and doing comparisons for months.

I have much to say on these subjects. The first is that I feel the creation of lists for motors (among other components) might be of considerable value to many. I suspect that having various categories of lists would make the lists a little easier to sort through. I am mentioning this as your research might make you an excellent candidate for aiding in entering such data if it might interest you. I do not mean to hijack your thread, but rather accentuate your efforts in a magnitudal way both to you, myself and others. Spread sheets or sortable tables is what I have in mind, you might not realize how useful this sort of idea might be but having the data of power to cost ratio or power to weight ratio on a sortable spreadsheet often makes things so much easier to gain perspective on. I am considering forming such lists on the ES wiki but the issue is the technical difficult of creating these lists may be daunting to more than a few, however the simplicity of google docs is appealing but lacks the universal ability to modify the data amongst all users who visit this forum, perhaps you or others can help find an ideal platform that might help yourself and others in doing comparisons of parts much as you are. In my quest for knowledge on this subject I found a similar google docs spreadsheet in he endless-sphere wiki concerning cells that may serve as an example to this notion, written by who I do not know. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10Z0SPN1abOO1tgVi9yEXF-hgUCV-x5Q16eiV1EKMz3M/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0

As to your motor, it is important to understand that while a motor may say it is rated for a continuous amount of power, it is done so with certain assumptions often relating to duty cycle, ambient temperature, air flow, RPM and so on. Many RC type motors are rated with the assumption that it will have insane degrees of air flow being blown over the motor by a propeller, so a 18kw rated motor might not do so well with negligible air flow for very long. You may already very well be aware of this as you desire water cooled motors, I assume you intend to hook any water cooled motor up to a large radiator with a very strong fan drawing air over it's fins.

I have sought out a motor combination much as you have, around 8kW for a trailer so what you find will interest me more than a little.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Electric-Car-Hub-Motor-Water-Cooling-273-8000W-Extra-Type-V3-Motor/1389549_32390103411.html This motor might interest you through, water cooled, 8kw rated though I am sure a larger radiator than the motor was rated for using would mean considerably more power. You can ask for a range of RPM (winding) and then tune things with gearing or so I imagine. I am sure you can figure out how to attach your pulleys to it, I hope, certainly doesn't look like there are a lacking of options for ways to attach stuff to that motor. Of course, this motor is on the high side of price, but I don't know of any other water cooled motors.

Sensored or sensorless is often a question that is important for electric vehicles as starts from a stop can be difficult or impossible from in some conditions (steep hills) on sensorless. The way I understand it is a sensorless controller reads the motor position on a signal called BEMF that is only generated while the motor is in motion, so starting the motor blind with no idea of it's position is sometimes not something that works out I guess. I don't really know if sensors would be essential for your motor starts in your situation, I assume that usually the answer would be no as I would guess your motor starts would be often unloaded. Efficiency might not be as good sensorless depending on the controller, this is more of a guess, hopefully someone has stronger input on the subject. Sensors main disadvantage is that hall sensors are sensitive to heat and sometimes break because they get too hot or too hot often, if you can manage to keep the motor cool enough then I imagine you'll probably have no issues with hall sensor failure.

Kelly controllers http://kellycontroller.com/kls6030s24v-60v350asinusoidal-brushless-motor-controller-p-1341.html taking this one as an example. Rating it at 60v and "Motor Current Limit, continuous: 150A", volts times amps equals watts, so 9000w. It's probably worth repeating that if it's in still air it'll probably get much hotter than expected and then badness from there. http://kellycontroller.com/kls-heat-sink-p-1363.html They sell a heatsink to go with it. I would create something of a hood or wind funnel that would hold the controller with extra heatsink on one end and something like a 20" box fan on the other for what would probably be an effectively and affordable way of cooling down the controller or maybe just a squirrel cage type blower fan might work without the hood, I don't know but you get the idea I am sure. The other option may be to remove the controller from it's case and attach the mosfet thermal interface to something to circulate water with over the mosfet thermal interface setting up something of another case for that setup.

 

[FluxZoom]

http://cngoldenmotor.en.alibaba.com/product/594515273-200115131/10KW_brushless_motor_HPM10KL.html#! Maybe? It has a liquid cooling option.

 

[Punx0r]

Along with motors, RC controllers are also massively over-rated compared to their capabilities. You'd also need a 10kW DC power supply to run this thing.

Why not use a single phase AC induction motor?

 

[Miles]

4QD (UK based and said to be reliable and have a 300A model that looks suitable)

4QD controllers are for brushed motors....

 

[Miles]

What sort of machinery are you wanting to operate?

I run a Wadkin industrial circular saw, with a 3 phase motor, using a Transwave coverter: http://www.powercapacitors.co.uk/products/transwave-converters/

 

[Miles]

Plettenberg (love the look of the Nova 15 with water cooling and have asked for a quite but expecting >£1000)

About 2500 euros.... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=755292#p755292

 

[marcexec]

...

I have much to say on these subjects. The first is that I feel the creation of lists for motors (among other components) might be of considerable value to many. I suspect that having various categories of lists would make the lists a little easier to sort through. I am mentioning this as your research might make you an excellent candidate for aiding in entering such data if it might interest you. I do not mean to hijack your thread, but rather accentuate your efforts in a magnitudal way both to you, myself and others. Spread sheets or sortable tables is what I have in mind, you might not realize how useful this sort of idea might be but having the data of power to cost ratio or power to weight ratio on a sortable spreadsheet often makes things so much easier to gain perspective on. I am considering forming such lists on the ES wiki but the issue is the technical difficult of creating these lists may be daunting to more than a few, however the simplicity of google docs is appealing but lacks the universal ability to modify the data amongst all users who visit this forum, perhaps you or others can help find an ideal platform that might help yourself and others in doing comparisons of parts much as you are. In my quest for knowledge on this subject I found a similar google docs spreadsheet in he endless-sphere wiki concerning cells that may serve as an example to this notion, written by who I do not know. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10Z0SPN1abOO1tgVi9yEXF-hgUCV-x5Q16eiV1EKMz3M/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0
...

I started Motor selection: sortable table in the Wiki and Electric Motor Selection when I had some time at work.
I'm happy to format raw data - just PM me if you have trouble in the Wiki. Note the detailed specsheets for each motor as well. Best discuss in the other thread not to push this one OT.

 

[blisspacket]

There's a variety of controllers and motors within your specs. at these two sites:
www.Heinzmann.com
www.evs-inmotion.com