Motortrend article with tons of info about Tesla’s Cybertruck

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

And that $399 Tesla fix ...is only an option to a few who can ship their dead car to one of those few shops who can fix it.. but to the rest of the world, that is not an option !..Tesla service centre only !

Or you watch Rich Rebuilds showing how to do it with a butter knife and some screwdrivers on youtube :wink:. If you don't want to do it yourself, his garage bills for 30-minutes of time for the job. Think that's bad? There's a long history of Chrysler FCA (with the 500e) and some Nissan dealers (Leaf) refusing to work on the cars. Like Ohbse said, the current automotive industry is heavily dependent on consumables to maintain itself, and with the takeoff of leasing (thanks to economic factors we won't go into) OEMs are engineering parts around the times spent on lease too. If you don't believe me, look up when FCA Chrysler (now Peugot-Chrysler) will have problems with their automatic transmissions in the Chargers.

The eMMC fault is something Tesla should have known better- and there's plenty more, plenty WORSE issues than that (specifically with the X) which is it's own discussion. The real point is however, you're not posting real hard evidence against us- you're just saying "things break" and crossing your arms. Of course things break. EVs break. They just break less, and we have data to prove it.

As an example, a common move industry wide in 'modern' engines is to go to a low tension piston ring to further reduce frictional losses. While this does work to improve economy, the reason it wasn't done earlier is that it results in unacceptable rates of oil consumption. A VW or Audi under warranty isn't eligible for inspection until you're putting in more than 1 litre of oil per 2000km travelled! I have seen some vehicles whos owners spend 50% of their fuel bill on oil topups and this is considered 'normal'.

Another is the first generation of direct fuel injection. This often results in some dramatic carbon buildup issues on vehicles that are not frequently driven hard, the end result of which is very expensive to resolve and in the medium term actually increases total fuel consumption due to poor combustion.

Other internal components have degraded, even over the course of a model run. Cam chain tensioners moved from teflon lined, aluminium investment cast and post machined to simple fiber refinced plastic. One lasts for a lifetime, one lasts for the warranty period. Hoses use proprietary plastic clips, operating in hot environments they become brittle and are almost guaranteed to break if ever touched.

While oil and lubrication has improved substantially, those same improvements can result in greater sensitivity to neglect or adverse operating conditions.

None of these things apply to EV's!

Ah, I knew you knew your stuff ! My stepfather works in the Transmission industry and the Nissan CVTs have been his BANE, and that's not even getting to the growing tire-fire that is the Ford Fiesta "automatics". Did you know more than 20% of "new" factory parts that arrive for assembly just don't work? His horror stories coupled with the last mechanic making me have to replace my oil pan due to his fiery love of the Ugga-Duggas mean I'm the only person who touches my car anymore.

My subie is my last newly-bought gas car. I'll still have project vehicles (overboosted all to hell) but my next machine is either gonna be a Tesla 3 or the Cybertruck here. I don't like working on my subie even though it's mechanically somewhat simple just because there's so many areas (ABS, coolant system) that require dealer-specific tools to service. They have vacuums for the coolant system now! Even the FSM says you can't burp it like a normal car!

 

[Punx0r]

DSG gearboxes are great but I suspect will be expensive timebombs when a lot of these cars get to 10 years old. It'll probably end up being the case that if it goes wrong most people will scrap the car.

I've also observed that approx 1990-2005 or so was a good period for cars in terms of refinement, reliability, efficiency and servicability. Improvements in refinement and efficiency have been made since then but IMO are often outweighed by decreases in the other two factors.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

DSG gearboxes are great but I suspect will be expensive timebombs when a lot of these cars get to 10 years old. It'll probably end up being the case that if it goes wrong most people will scrap the car.

I've also observed that approx 1990-2005 or so was a good period for cars in terms of refinement, reliability, efficiency and servicability. Improvements in refinement and efficiency have been made since then but IMO are often outweighed by decreases in the other two factors.

Volvo actually used the same class-action-lawsuit Ford gearbox, but pulled a DSG and oil-cooled the clutch instead of Ford having it dry. Volvo boxes have no problems and are perfectly reliable.

You're not the only person i've heard echo that about the 90s- it does have a lot of merit, especially with how complicated current CANBUS systems can be versus cars made only 10 years ago. The upgrade has been pretty staggering.

 

[Hillhater]

And that $399 Tesla fix ...is only an option to a few who can ship their dead car to one of those few shops who can fix it.. but to the rest of the world, that is not an option !..Tesla service centre only !

Or you watch Rich Rebuilds showing how to do it with a butter knife and some screwdrivers on youtube :wink:. If you don't want to do it yourself, his garage bills for 30-minutes of time for the job. ....

How long have cars had ECMs ? .....30-40 years ?
It is still practically impossible to find any autoshop, specialist or otherwise, and certainly not a Main Dealer/Service center,..that will do any repairs on an. ECM.
All anyone does is ECM replacement... why ?, because the skill set to diagnose and repair internally is non existent in the auto industry. Anyone with those skills is involved in much higher paying electronics roles.
So the chances of any DIY, or Specialist, repair fixes for those kinds of issues are many years down the track ..if at all. The answer will be for authorities to enforce consumer laws for this type of terminal fault, in the same way they have done for VWs DSG problems and Airbags etc.

Volvo actually used the same class-action-lawsuit Ford gearbox, but pulled a DSG and oil-cooled the clutch instead of Ford having it dry. Volvo boxes have no problems and are perfectly reliable.

Ford always had/still has, the “wet” clutch version of the DSG, fitted to the Diesel engined cars.
They have also be totally reliable and long lived...there are many of those units with 250k + on them and still running strong.

 

[Ohbse]

DSG gearboxes are great but I suspect will be expensive timebombs when a lot of these cars get to 10 years old. It'll probably end up being the case that if it goes wrong most people will scrap the car.

I've also observed that approx 1990-2005 or so was a good period for cars in terms of refinement, reliability, efficiency and servicability. Improvements in refinement and efficiency have been made since then but IMO are often outweighed by decreases in the other two factors.

That is very much already the case. It's possible to pick up an Mk5 golf/scirroco/touran/ from ~2005 to 2008 for peanuts, the DSG repair for most of their common failure modes, or even just 'routine' clutch replacement exceeds value of the car by some margin.
After diagnosing serious DSG or catatrophic engine damage, the customers often walk away from the vehicles as even the cost of diagnostics can equate to their residual value :| On the (minor) plus side, outside of drivetrain components there are plenty of spares around!

There are so many less components in EVs, most of which are solid state. I think repairs and maintenance is going to be a much smaller piece of the pie in future - yet another major barrier to incumbent manufacturers doing it properly. Too many of their own staff have a vested interest in their own continued relevance and are unlikely to embrace optimal solutions that render them redundant.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Hey; you guys wanna watch a murder?

How long have cars had ECMs ? .....30-40 years ?
It is still practically impossible to find any autoshop, specialist or otherwise, and certainly not a Main Dealer/Service center,..that will do any repairs on an. ECM.

Here's ECM tuning; They specialize in ECU repair and modifications for 90s turbo DSMs.
http://www.ecmtuning.com/

ECU repair isn't rare because of poaching or whatever; it's rare because it's easier and cheaper to buy/junkyard a different one instead of repairing it. Only until the 90s with GM LS ECUs did you get computers that would take modifications, and thanks to the rise of Megasquirt, ECMLink and other custom ECU systems you don't need to piggyback or modify your stock system any longer. IT has never been easier to make a VERY powerful car and people now do fuel maps and tunes in their garage working off stock Delta and AFM sensors instead of dyno time.

You don't know anything about cars, do you?

Ford always had/still has, the “wet” clutch version of the DSG, fitted to the Diesel engined cars.
They have also be totally reliable and long lived...there are many of those units with 250k + on them and still running strong.

I'm not talking about that clutch, I'm talking about the dry one "made" into an automatic used in the Fiesta. Also, you stopped talking about Tesla somehow being less reliable all of the sudden.

 

[Hillhater]

..your mail order ECU tune shop is not relavent to 90% of owners !
The average driver is not going to pull the ECU out of his car and send it away for repairs, nor is he going to buy a used one to DIY refit.....he is going to get the local dealer or tame mechanic to replace it, and any sane mechanic wont fit a junkyard part,..he will fit a reputable spare most likely a manufactures OE part.
.....especially if the car is a $100 k EV.
Are you seriously suggesting the average Tesla/Merc/Leaf etc , owner is going to resort to back street tune shops , or DIY mail order parts to fix the electronics on their EVs ?...dream on !.
...you dont know much about average car owners do you ?
You were talking about Fords DSG dry clutch Gbox issues....there always was a wet clutch version of that same DSG Gbox that never suffered the same issues as the dry version .
[quoteAlso, you stopped talking about Tesla somehow being less reliable all of the sudden.][/quote]
Please show where i have said. “Tesla is less reliable”
What i have said is... EVs are unlikely to be more reliable than modern ICEs

 

[Punx0r]

..your mail order ECU tune shop is not relavent to 90% of owners !
The average driver is not going to pull the ECU out of his car and send it away for repairs, nor is he going to buy a used one to DIY refit.....
.....especially if the car is a $100 k EV.

Err, a EV worth $100K is more or less brand new and the ECU would be covered under warranty.

Are you seriously suggesting the average Tesla/Merc/Leaf etc , owner is going to resort to back street tune shops , or DIY mail order parts to fix the electronics on their EVs ?...dream on !.

They will when the cars are old enough to be out of warranty (you were talking about 7 year warranties being common earlier), just like they do when electronics fail on old ICE cars.

...you dont know much about average car owners do you ?

Apparently neither do you if you think they all roll around in cars worth $100K and would only ever go to the Merc main dealer...

You were talking about Fords DSG dry clutch Gbox issues....there always was a wet clutch version of that same DSG Gbox that never suffered the same issues as the dry version .

So what you're saying is that just because one car manufacturer has reliability problems with one version of a drivetrain component doesn't invalidate the concept of such a component? Great! Then maybe you can pipe down about the transmission problems that were specific only to the Model S, but you frequently tout as supposed evidence that EVs are fundamentally unreliable 8)

 

[Hillhater]

Err, a EV worth $100K is more or less brand new and the ECU would be covered under warranty.

Tesla has a 4 year warranty, and a $160-$175k price tag down here.. (S & X models)
2015/16 versions were over $200k new, and are currently fetching $85-$100+k
So, no i still dont see those owners risking back street fix ups ( and it will be some time before those skills are readily available anyway. Remember , even Leaf owners still have to search between the big city dealers to even find one that can run diagnostics on a fault.

Hillhater wrote: ↑Feb 10 2020 10:44am
...you dont know much about average car owners do you ?

Apparently neither do you if you think they all roll around in cars worth $100K and would only ever go to the Merc main dealer...

Well, most current Tesla drivers here do !
..and i doubt a $100k Merc EV owner would wander much beyond the local dealers service center either..not that he is likely to have many options !
EVs are still very much a top end of the market product, and those buyers do not bother with DIY repairs.

o what you're saying is that just because one car manufacturer has reliability problems with one version of a drivetrain component doesn't invalidate the concept of such a component? Great! Then maybe you can pipe down about the transmission problems that were specific only to the Model S, but you frequently tout as supposed evidence that EVs are fundamentally unreliable

I think you must have read a different post to mine..or you are imagining things !
I never mentioned “validation” of anything, concept or reality.
I simply pointed out to “Shouty” man that it was not Volvo that developed the wet dual clutch DSG box,
And,...i do not “frequently tout as supposed evidence that EVs are fundamentally unreliable ”....Teslas transmission failures.....
......i only use it as an example when some dik rattles on about how reliable an EV will be .!
.......as with the Tesla logger failures
.......and door handles
.......and Leaf batteries

 

[Punx0r]

Fault door handles?! Did you know they have those on ICE vehicles as well?

$100k is Aus dollars, OK. I just had a look on Australian Autotrader and there four Model S's for sale in the whole of Australia?!

Your views and experiences are not representative of most of the Western world.

 

[Hillhater]

You are obviously not aware of the scale of Teslas door handle issue.
And your research on Au tesla used cars confirms your limitations...
Just one site alone lists 62 used Teslas..
https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/tesla
..your opinion and comments are suitably ignored !

 

[Punx0r]

Wow, a whole 62 vehicles?! :lol:

Yes, because I point out door handles are not a fundamental flaw unique to EVs I must be an idiot...

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

It's always fun to watch HH go in circles 'cause he doesn't want to admit he don't know shit. Of course, there are no statue of limitations with shit like this, and people will hold things against you literally forever if it brings them validation so... show me on the dolly where the electric car touched you, Hill Hater. You're in a safe space, you can tell me!

But back to the future Syd Mead wanted. Have they said if they're going to do any sort of coating over the stainless at all? Even just a good layer of clearcoat? Also, if the body is folded into shape is the battery tray bolted underneath or slipped "in" through the rear/front then bolted in?

 

[Punx0r]

I'd bet you'll be able to get it vinyl wrapped in any colour/design you want for a fee...

 

[billvon]

You are obviously not aware of the scale of Teslas door handle issue.
And your research on Au tesla used cars confirms your limitations...
Just one site alone lists 62 used Teslas..

WOW! 62 used Teslas being sold out of 921,446! Why, that's almost .007% of sales, and indicates that, at best, 99.93% of customers are happy. That is a HUGE problem! Tesla is DOOMED! Too bad more people don't recognize your brilliance and immediately sell their Teslas.

 

[Hillhater]

You are obviously not aware of the scale of Teslas door handle issue.
And your research on Au tesla used cars confirms your limitations...
Just one site alone lists 62 used Teslas..

WOW! 62 used Teslas being sold out of 921,446! Why, that's almost .007% of sales, and indicates that, at best, 99.93% of customers are happy. That is a HUGE problem! Tesla is DOOMED! Too bad more people don't recognize your brilliance and immediately sell their Teslas.

If you could follow a discussion , even for a short time, you woould not make such an arse of yourself !
The point about used Teslas, was PRICING, not quantity.
AND .. we were only considering AUSTRALIA. !
..BUT since you want to make an issue of it, three are LESS THAN 4000 S & X TESLAS IN AUSTRALIA ! ..total since sales began
In Australia, Tesla sold under 400 S & X models in 2019
So those 62 .( and that is NOT a total either, just ONE Online sales site !)..represents 10%+ of last years sales.
Not such a glowing picture now ..is it ?

 

[boars]

If you could follow a discussion , even for a short time, you woould not make such an arse of yourself !
The point about used Teslas, was PRICING, not quantity.
AND .. we were only considering AUSTRALIA. !
..BUT since you want to make an issue of it, three are LESS THAN 4000 S & X TESLAS IN AUSTRALIA ! ..total since sales began
In Australia, Tesla sold under 400 S & X models in 2019
So those 62 .( and that is NOT a total either, just ONE Online sales site !)..represents 10%+ of last years sales.
Not such a glowing picture now ..is it ?

In all fairness, carsales is pretty much 99% of our market - there's really not much in the way of serious competition for that site.
Same goes with bikesales.com.au.

Yes there are other things like gumtree, ebay, specialty forums and dealers but by and large expensive/modern vehicles will more than likely be on carsales, even the dealer cars.

Not glowing? 62 vehicles? Some of them are probably upgrading to newer models (of Tesla or other EV's), people who buy cutting edge tech are often frequently changing to the next thing and Tesla's have been available in Au since what? 2012-2014 or somewhere around there? Some of the cars for sale are 6 years old, hardly something anyone would be shocked about - if they're so unreliable or annoying, waiting 6 years to sell it seems... well a bit odd.

10% of last years sales numbers of the worst selling models, whilst having to compete against the newest most popular model.... and also not counting the sales of those new cars while calculating the 10%? Priceless.
There's at least 1 model 3 for sale, huge unhappy times but considering there were around a total of 2,414 Tesla Model 3s in Australia by ~1st October last year... well, you make your own conclusions on that one.

 

[John in CR]

Hopefully they break and crash in ever increasing numbers for continuously increasing availability of cheap batteries as I will continue to build my own EVs. No dealerships, mechanics, warranty claims, etc and I get vehicle to exactly meet my needs. Don't trust any very large institutions whether they're companies, utilities, governments, etc. They're all corrupt and lie. They simply want all of whatever money you make.

 

[boars]

Just because I got curious what the competition was like, in case there's any doubt that carsales aren't the predominate site in Au... (I started to doubt myself!) :wink:

• Carsales lists a total of 38 USED Tesla's for sale ***
• https://www.autotrader.com.au/for-sale/tesla lists a total of 7 Tesla's for sale, all of which are ALSO listed on Carsales.com.au
• Gumtree lists a total of 3 Tesla's for sale all of which are ALSO listed on Carsales.com.au
• Ebay lists 0 Tesla's
• Drive.com.au lists 0 Tesla's
• Tradingpost lists 0 Tesla's
• And finally carsales.com.au annual report lists them as having >90% of dealerships listing in Australia.
  http://shareholder.carsales.com.au/FormBuilder/_Resource/_module/NwbnH0pKFk-uPGxM7cmTrw/docs/reports/annual/Annual_Report_2019.pdf

Carsales really doesn't have much competition carsales gobbled up carpoint and bikesales gobbled up bikepoint - one way or another.

Just noticed that one of the Tesla's for sale is actually the old 2011 roadster, boy that hasn't got too cheap!

*** The USED vehicle listings isn't the same as the normal search in carsales, search defaults to new and used.
There are 20 listings of NEW vehicles in the default search? Tesla sells via carsales adverts???? Colour me confused, someone listing/selling via commission or something odd?

The USED listing is only 38 vehicles, which includes a single model 3 and 2 roadsters, which makes the "62" figure used by Hillhater a little "off". For his comparison to hold water in sales, the vehicles available should have been ~35. Which is still comparing old cars of up to 6 years old vs 1 year of sales on the least selling models of the year.

Cannot find reliable figures to confirm/deny the 400 vehicle sales but the 62 was off by quite a bit so not holding much faith in the 10%+ or 400 figures right now. It'd be somewhere around 8.75% if the 400 proves accurate. Driven has an estimated total of 400, so that's about as good as we're going to get I guess. Compared to the 3300 estimated 3's sold!!

https://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/tesla-takes-70-per-cent-of-market-as-australia-electric-car-sales-reach-5000-in-2019/

Edit: comparatively there are 72 USED Nissan leafs for sale on carsales, which sold 408 last year, nearly double the Teslas.

 

[Hillhater]

....
Cannot find reliable figures to confirm/deny the 400 vehicle sales but the 62 was off by quite a bit so not holding much faith in the 10%+ or 400 figures right now.

Someone else not following the discussion (or deliberately taking the thread off topic ?) ,and completely missing the point..
...the point was the price of used S & X models...

. ......2015/16 versions were over $200k new, and are currently fetching $85-$100+k
So, no i still dont see those owners risking back street fix ups

I didnt waste time verifying the exact numbers, i simply chose the first sales site and read the figure quoted for sale (63 actually at the time !)...because some other dik suggested there were only 4 for sale..
Then some other TOOL chipped in with his dumb % calculation against WORLDWIDE sales
And now you are pi55ing around the bush debating exact used car numbers !! FFS ! ..dont you have something better to worry about.
Back to the original point ..
If anyone of those 4000 Teslas in Australia cracks the sh1ts and fries it memory/ ECU, (or any one of the other critical custom Tesla electronic devices........who is going to repair it in Australia ??

 

[boars]

Someone else not following the discussion (or deliberately taking the thread off topic ?) ,and completely missing the point..
...the point was the price of used S & X models...

. ......2015/16 versions were over $200k new, and are currently fetching $85-$100+k
So, no i still dont see those owners risking back street fix ups

I didnt waste time verifying the exact numbers, i simply chose the first sales site and read the figure quoted for sale (63 actually at the time !)...because some other dik suggested there were only 4 for sale..

You're calling out a guy over figures, that could in theory be backed up by looking at one website, say gumtree where there is only 3 listed.
You then proceeded to only check 1 website to get a figure, which you incorrectly read and used it to support an argument where you produced a random % that's incorrect (only ~45% wrong, which is still an improvement over 4 I'm willing to admit!).
Then you get antsy at me for going off topic? What? I'm just trying to get everyone on the same page with correct info if you're going to argue over numbers.

I didn't dispute the prices of cars, in fact I mentioned that the 2011 roadster STILL isn't cheap, now adding it is/was listed at 150k FYI.

Then some other TOOL chipped in with his dumb % calculation against WORLDWIDE sales
And now you are pi55ing around the bush debating exact used car numbers !! FFS ! ..dont you have something better to worry about.

Just calling a spade a spade, I'm just trying to make everyone use the right figures if you're going to argue over them.

Back to the original point ..
If anyone of those 4000 Teslas in Australia cracks the sh1ts and fries it memory/ ECU, (or any one of the other critical custom Tesla electronic devices........who is going to repair it in Australia ??

I honestly don't disagree with this point, the cars are maintaining value more than I thought they would.
The people buying them at these prices points will probably continue to get them serviced at a Tesla dealer/center/whatever they are called if they need to.
There will of course be the over enthusiastic enthusiasts that will try to do as much as they can themselves as with everything else but largely I think most won't.

There's no critical mass of cars on the road to have an upswing in specialised auto/elec mechanics to service said vehicles... but that's a problem you'll have with any new car company that doesn't have enough cars on the road I guess.

It's a problem with more than just Teslas though and reminds me of vendor lock in with repairs in many other things.

Having to fly a mechanic out to your farm to diagnose a tractor for instance or not being able to service a motorbike where you want as your favorite mechanic cannot afford the manufacturer specific diagnostic tools to check error codes and the like or cannot order parts. You can forget DIY in these instances or you'll void your warranty and other fun things.

Or on the other edge of the scale where skilled mechanics in classic cars and bikes are dieing off and no one is replacing them. Dealers will no longer touch their vehicles and you have to chase down someone who will

 

[Hillhater]

....The people buying them at these prices points will probably continue to get them serviced at a Tesla dealer/center/whatever they are called if they need to.
There will of course be the over enthusiastic enthusiasts that will try to do as much as they can themselves as with everything else but largely I think most won't.

Its not just a matter of vehicle value or risk of invalidating warranty etc, even owners of 10 year old Leafs have problems finding even an official Nissan dealer that is qualified trained, and tooled up to deal with drive train issues. It a completely new skillset that does not exist in the established auto repair network.
Tesla and other new EV manufacturere are on the cutting edge of electrical/electronic dvelopment, and people with those skills and competancy to fault find and fix issues are few and far between, with abilities that gets them employment way up the earnings tree beyond a car repair shop.
It will be a long time before those services are readily available outside a main dealership.

 

[Punx0r]

Tesla and other new EV manufacturere are on the cutting edge of electrical/electronic dvelopment, and people with those skills and competancy to fault find and fix issues are few and far between, with abilities that gets them employment way up the earnings tree beyond a car repair shop.
It will be a long time before those services are readily available outside a main dealership.

"AT THE MOMENT"

Tesla is a relatively low volume luxury foreign car manufacturer who sells a few hundred cars a year into the whole of a big country like Australia and you think it's outrageous that there isn't currently an independent repairer on every street corner? :lol:

How did you get on when you took your early Mercedes mechanically fuel injected engine to your local carb shop? Do you think Bob's lube-n-tune made of the first EFI models in Oz? If you had one of the first Porsche sports cars with a DSG box how do you think you'd get on in your local transmission shop when it shit itself?

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Please, HillHater doesn't realize there's populations of people who will buy a $40,000 BMW with millions in development sunk into the chassis, and then think a $400 set of eBay coilovers will be an improvement. In a way, I kind of envy him; it's takes work to be this dumb.

HH, you're reposting my argument AGAINST YOU now with that whole:

Its not just a matter of vehicle value or risk of invalidating warranty etc, even owners of 10 year old Leafs have problems finding even an official Nissan dealer that is qualified trained,

... bit- ask a Chevy owner after the last strike. And what do they need to know to be "qualified"? A volt is a volt, they need to follow the same safety standards with 12 volts as 400 or your mechanic is back to Carburation and magneto's/reluctor flywheels if he doesn't want to learn it.

You're talking in circles son, and it's funny to watch. Come to think of it... do you even own a car? I genuinely don't think you do, since you seem to think a parts store only having 2 spark plugs out of 4 in stock means the whole car is worthless.

 

[Punx0r]

...not just that car being worthless but the entire concept of an ICE being worthless and forever unworkable :wink:

Or maybe just that those idiot politicians and crooked scientists stitched us all right up by forcing us away from air-cooled twins...

Some people just live to be contrarian