Multiple Cyclone Motors

[dumbass]

OK, please note that I am a new guy to this e-biking stuff but I am enthusiastically trying to absorb as much as possible and be a little self creative at the sametime. So please be kind........besides I'm not only fragile but I'm old and maybe a little senile (and this idea may prove it too :lol: ).

I currently have an $80 Walmart cheapy (Magna made in China). A few weeks ago I mounted a Cyclone 360w motor kit on it and for the most part I'm happily surprised how well it performs. Key point here is “most part”. There are times when the 360w just runs out of poop and can't get the job done. I know I can just replace it with a 500w motor (or larger) but that's not what I want to do because I love the power economy of the 360w motor. And I only need the extra power 10% to 20% of the time for added climbing power or higher speeds. So I what to install a second 360w for those times when I need a little extra kick of power. I know similar ideas have been talked about here and they were more or less shot down. But I think for my situation it would very well. Besides I'm only 60 years old and retired so I need something to tinker with. I've checked it out and it isn't no big deal mechanically to setup the 2 motors on my bike. But electrically maybe another story.

Here's my 2 question and please note that the Cyclone 360w motor has the controller built into it; 1) am I correct in assuming that the throttle control is only seeing control voltage and not the high current of the motor is seeing? And therefore, assuming I had enough battery power and wired each motor as normal to the batteries and then wired them to the throttle control (the 2nd. motor would first run through an on/off selector switch) it should work. Right? Or do I need to change the throttle control to a higher capacity or ultimate no/no and use 2 separate throttles? and 2) would the throttle act differently when running 1 motor then when running both motors? Like when I flip the 2nd. motor to cut in would the division of the throttle output be split between the 2 motors? Therefore, reducing the power from the 1st motor? Not much gain there!!

I am going to be setting up my wife's bike with a 360w kit in a week or 2 so I could temporarily borrow her motor and batteries for a test. That is if someone gives me good feedback information. And please don't worry about having enough battery power. I have been running on a set of SLA 12v 18ah batteries so far with no problem. In fact I have gotten as much as about 20 miles out of them and never got a cutout. So I could steel her motor and batteries for a short test first. If this works I would order us 2 more motors and change to LiFepo4 batteries to improve our range.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

 

[Pete]

Cyclone throttle is a hall sensor that just provides an analog voltage to the controller. No idea what the impedance of the controller sense circuitry is but I would guess that you should be ok feeing both controllers from the same variable voltage.

I still think you would be better off with a single larger motor, less weight, complexity and driveline losses. Remembering that the throttle signal just sets the desired RPM in the controller. The controller then supplies the required amps to achieve the requested RPM. So it is really up to you how quickly you get through your battery .

I personally think you would be better off with a 500w and using a Cycle Analyist to put a software adjustable hard limit on your max amps and to give you real time feedback so you can control your power usage.

 

[deardancer3]

another thing you might consider is running your cylone 360 at 30 volts. that might be enough power for youe. Just put a 6v SLA in series with what you have and test out the power and speed. I that will suffice, we can figure out how to do it correctly and charge it.

Are you running out of power to push the bike at the top end, or is the ccylone emotor just spinning out too fast for your rear cluster. How many teet on your rear cluster small ring.

putting better smoother tires will be like giving yourself another 25 watts or so at 15 mph

 

[Rassy]

Hi DA. Welcome to the forum. I currently run two brushed hub motors on a trailer. They get their juice from a common battery pack and a single common throttle, but each motor has its own controller. Even though this is a whole different setup than yours, I would expect it to work in a similar fashion. One thought, I wouldn't put a one motor/two motor switch in the circuit. The motors do not seem to fight each other, and unless you are accelerating harder or going faster the two motors should not use any more juice to do the job than one motor would require.

I'm an old duffer also (68) and have really enjoyed fooling around with my electric bikes. Good luck on your project.

Edit: I will be getting my Watts Up meter this week, and will be able to verify what one motor vs two motors uses at the same speed and weight. Shoud be interesting, and I will report back in a week or two.

 

[Dr. Shock]

I think you should do it for Science.

 

[dumbass]

Thanks guys for your input. Mr. Shock I think you hit the nail on the head "I should do it for science!!”. Hey Rassy please give me (us) an update on what you find on the 1 motor vsing 2 motors. I am using a Drain Brain now so I am planning to do the same test myself when I get eerythign done.

Because all the smaller version Cyclone motors (180w through 500w) have the controller built into the motor each motor would have it's own individual controller. I thought of another problem last night. The breaking system is safety wired to the motor. Like most or all off the shelf motor kits when you apply ether hand brake the motor power is interrupted. So this is another thing I will need to contend with. I think I can just cut the 2 motor into the same switches. I am assuming they are normally just interrupting the circuit from the throttle. Right??

My gearing is currently 14T on the motor, 14T though 28T on a 7 speed cassette and 44T on my crank.
I am considering changing the crank sprocket (many people have told me I am wrong) to a larger sprocket. My problem is I can not peddle as fast as the motor is running the chain in any one gear. So it is difficult for me to keep up to add the value of human power. I am also considering a new 11T/28 rear cassette. By doing these 2 things I will add to my top speed and be better suited to add human power to the system. This is not to say I'm not now but it is just easier for me to peddle harder then it is faster.

I thought about moving up to a 500w. In fact it was my original chose but Cyclone USA (Jim Olsen) was apposed to me using SLA batteries and they were in process of changing over to the LiFepo4 batteries and didn't have any in stock at the time I ordered. Beside that's to easy and not as much fun. And with the 500w I would always being using more power to do the same job. So is is an added power drain until I want the added power. Remember General Motors setup the Cadillac V8 to run on only 4 cylinder when the added power wasn't needed. I would think this is the same thing but better because there is no “dead” piston drag.

There are so many reasons I just want to do this I can't count them all. I guess the most siginicant are; 1) for glory of science. 2) sometimes I just want to tinker, 3) so I can show that 2o something year old that this old guy can stay with him at 25 MPH through empty trails. I stayed with him for almost 4 miles at over 24 MPH until my batteries started to wear down. Wish I could meet him again with fresh batteries. And had to break off the chase. But it was fun for a little while. Yeah, I know I'm cheating but so what, I'm old so I'm allowed!!

 

[rkosiorek]

only objection i can see is that each motor and controller has a low voltage regulator that feeds power to the hall throttle. i'm not sure if i would like to directly cross connect this low voltage from one to the other controller. especially since the controller is difficult to service to replace these low voltage regulators. you could solve this by isolating the voltage supply to the throttle with a couple of small diodes.

rick

 

[Drunkskunk]

1) for glory of science. 2) sometimes I just want to tinker, 3).... I'm old so I'm allowed!!

The best reasons of all to do it.

Just to point out, just having a 500watt motor doesn't mean it will use more power to do the same job. if it takes 150 watts to do 15 MPH for the small motor, it will take (roughly) the same for the larger. But having a bigger motor means you'll be more tempted to use it.

 

[fechter]

Welcome DA, (I can think of some other forum members that should have taken your name).

Anyway, you should have no problem running the throttle and brakes to both controllers as long as their negative battery wires are always connected to each other (like permanently soldered). The throttle and brake cutouts are very low current, 5 volt signals. If the negative battery wire on one motor came loose, then there would be a good chance of frying something.

Yes, do it for science! Two motors have twice the power...

 

[dumbass]

Well Jim Olsen 0f Cyclone USA advised me that he is shipping the motor kit tomorrow so I should have it for the weekend. If time allows I will start working on it. I just have to find a way to explain to my wife why I am installing a second motor on my bike and none on her's yet . I just hope I don't short out anything in the process. I think for now I will just set it up without worrying about the brake controls on the second motor. The big problem is I don't have any new batteries and I don't know when I willget them. I put a bid in on some Yesa LiFePo4s on Ebay but he rejected my offer. You have to wonder why a seller would offer something on a Buy now or best offer. And when you make an offer he rejects it and counters with his original price. So why put it up for Bet Offer then? I also emailed Ping for prices on his barreries but I haven't heard back from him. I emailed on Friday so I expected to hear from hime today but no luck. So there maybe a delay for testing. And if it takes to long my wise is going to be hot on my old butt. But I guess that's the price you have to pay to further science.

 

[TylerDurden]

You have to wonder why a seller would offer something on a Buy now or best offer. And when you make an offer he rejects it and counters with his original price. So why put it up for Bet Offer then?

Market research:

Kinda like "reserve" minimum... you can see the trends in the customers' bidding and get a better idea of what to expect. You can also contact the highest of the bidders if the item fails to sell.

:?

 

[hejo]

one more encouragement to try two small motors instead of one large...
Besides of all theoretical figures regarding efficiencies etc.
I did a lot of testing / measurements with my two recumbent trikes, operated individually and joined together as a tandem, being equipped with two small motors (408) and large motors (5303) , at different gearings / speeds, using only one motor pulling the whole tandem and operating two motors simultaneously :
results at 38V :
two small motors are best in efficiency = range : at low load one motor (5-9A), high load both motors are used (5-9A)
worst is one big motor operated at low load (2-5A)
second worst is one small motor operated at high load (current 20A)
third worst is one big motor operated at high load (20-30A)

Since the added sophistication / losses in the controllers etc. are neglegable as against the difference in total efficiency (215Wh in best case, 385 Wh in worst case for the same distance / performance)

 

[Pete]

I wonder if anybody has performance curves for hub motor's ?

I have a feeling the curves may be very different to Cyclone's

 

[Miles]

Depends how much faith you have in the Cyclone ones

 

[Pete]

Depends how much faith you have in the Cyclone ones

I will rephrase the question then, does anybody have independant curves for any motor's ?

 

[TylerDurden]

The closest to independent might be the Ebikes.ca hubsim.

Open-source dyno has been on our to-do list, but it hasn't been a high priority.

IIRC, the most recent thought was to use a cheap readily available motor (my1018) as a generator, to measure output.

 

[cerewa]

One of the things that the efficiency curves don't show is what kind of efficiency you get at below-full throttle.

My subjective impression is that the 500W cyclone motor (which i have) runs very efficiently if you avoid running it at full throttle. All that extra copper (compared to the 360W version) probably reduces electrical losses due to current in the windings, although there might extra losses from running the controller below full throttle.

 

[Rassy]

This is my promised answer on power requirements when using one Vs two motors at the same speed on the same bike. My test wasn't highly controlled, but good enough for what I wanted to find out. I found a fairly flat loop one mile long with no stops. I kept the speed as close as I could to 11 MPH. I only pedaled for the first 10 feet or so to help get things started. The battery is a Duct Tape from Anna, 48V 20AH. I used my trike, pushed by a two wheel trailer with two WE BD36 hub motors.

Test 1: 1 motor, with 2nd motor disconnected at the hub (controller left hooked up)

Starting Voltage: 53.24
Ending Voltage: 52.49
Minimum Voltage: 48.55
AH Used: 0.650
Peak Amps 28.24

Test 2: Both motors

Starting Voltage: 52.96 (Battery recovered a little)
Ending Voltage: 52.41
Minimum Voltage: 48.55
AH Used: 0.531
Peak Amps 28.24

Conclusion: Note the Minimum Voltage and Peak Amps are the same for both tests. I didn't reset the Watts Up, since I figured these numbers would be greater with both motors running. What I think occcured is that I pushed harder on the throttle with one motor during initial take off, or coming out of a corner, since with two motors the response to the throttle is quicker.

I was also suprised that the AH Used was less with two motors running. My motors do not freewheel, so there is a very small drag when coasting.

So, Mr. D. Bass, let us know what results you get when your ride is done.

 

[dumbass]

Ahhh, I regrate that my test has been delaid. Unfortunately all the parts were not shipped with my second kit plus as I had indicated I feared my wife would want the knew motor kit installed on her bike. So that's where it is for now. Sonner or later she will tire of riding and I will borrow her motor for my test. I was actually looking int othe possibility of buying a tandem and installing twin motors on it. But for now that too is on hold.

 

[GaryMedia]

another thing you might consider is running your cylone 360 at 30 volts. that might be enough power for youe. Just put a 6v SLA in series with what you have...

I installed a 6v 36Ah SLA battery in series with my 24v 20Ah NiMH pack to improve the performance of my 500W Cyclone kit. The combination now works much more to my liking. My guess is that the voltage from 24v 20Ah pack would sag because the M cells were a bit overtaxed by the amperage demand of the 500W motor. The additional 6v keeps the ampere demand down enough to make everything work well.

Moreover, the choice of a 36Ah SLA allows it to comfortably run below the range where Peukert effects would be much of an issue. I've read elsewhere in this forum that the Ah rating of an SLA should de-rated to about 60% of its nominal value to estimate its Ah capacity compared to LiFePO4 batteries. FWIW, that places the SLA's de-rated value right near 21Ah.

The charging of the two packs is accomplished via a pair of XLR connectors that I've wired into a plastic circuit box at the rear of the bike. The circuit has three 35-amp SPDT switches and a 30A circuit breaker. With all three switches in the 'up' position, the batteries are in series, and the bike runs on the the nominal 30v (actually 35v when fully charged) pair. When the three switches are in the 'down' position, the batteries are in parallel, and connected to their respective charging ports. The NiMH XLR port uses all three conductors; one for the thermal sense wire. Six other switch combinations of 'up' and 'down' are possible (no mechanical interlock) but these don't create any dangerous or destructive loops. I can append the circuit diagram if anyone is interested.