MUST READ - eBikes are LEGAL in the USA - Since HR727 8-2001

[mwkeefer]

To all my ES Brothers,

I've been watching the back and forth, is it legal is it not... mostly US arguments, my state says no, NJ took my bike, I got a ticket for driving on a DUI suspended license and did 6 months jail time!!!!!

E N O U G H !!!!

Sorry I'm very frustrated, I've been explaining without quoting law or citing House Rule or Senate Votes on said Bills turning them into law nor the subsequent regulation which came from the new jurisdictional body - this is only the US, I didn't have the time to chase down the Federal Code, the lexus-nexus briefs relating to this law and pertaining to the US Department of Transportation in addition to the Consumer Protection Safety Act where in fact the jurisdiction now lay.

Since I'm not a lawyer I don't ask you to believe me, I actually will walk you through from the August, 2001 inspection and passage of original HR-707 and the subsequent addendum with links to official records (find your own if you don't trust mine) and in some cases a break down of what each passage means to keeping your eBike (commercial, which none do - or DIY legal in the USA).

BTW: There is non law against having an off-road mode, for true compliance even not written I'd have it locked out with a key switch off the side of the bike somewhere just to make it seem like an old 4wd you had to get out and lock the hubs it makes police and others think it's much more difficult to do and that you cant do it while riding

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Where does US Federal Law come from for Light Weight Electric Bicycles?

This comes from first HR727 which introduced and passed on the same day by 107th congress in August of 2001 the only exhibit provided was an accounting from all the needed bureaucratic penny counters but they produced a report "Report HR107-5" which submitted on that August 2001 day basically endorsed what the Congress wanted to do with the bill. (A very odd day) - To make the day odder it passed 301-1

That law was amended later to include rider must pedal above 20 mph requirements and one other but it's insignificant in this explanation and wont affect your legality or understanding of what is and isn't legal.

A cop telling you your riding a Motor Vehicle = NOT LEGAL
A Judge upholding a ticket = NOT LEGAL
A cop writing you Motor Vehicle Tickets = NOT LEGAL
A cop impounding or towing your eBike = NOT LEGAL

Basically everything they try to do to limit power below 750w, below 20mph on roadways (unless posted speed is lower, bicyclists still have to follow some basic rules right) is against the law and just because it has a motor doesn't make it Motor Vehicle thanks to the Congress (never thought I'd say that either).

So first they defined Light Weight Electric Bicycle, then turned over jurisdiction to Consumer Product Safety Act not National Transportation Organization in fact HR-707 law actually removes the very jurisdiction and puts it where normal bicycles are regulated because eBikes are not Motor Vehicles...

But wait it gets better... Here is the exact (excerpt but portrayed in context):

CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY ACT
* * * * * * *
low-speed electric bicycles
Sec. 38. (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-
speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the
meaning of section 3(a)(1) and shall be subject to the
Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and
part 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) For the purpose of this section, the term ``low-speed
electric bicycle'' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with
fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750
watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface,
when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator
who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.
(c) To further protect the safety of consumers who ride low-
speed electric bicycles, the Commission may promulgate new or
amended requirements applicable to such vehicles as necessary
and appropriate.
(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement
with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that
such State law or requirement is more stringent than the
Federal law or requirements referred to in subsection (a).

Let me break it down for you ladies and Gents:

A.) Read the sections they refer to, it means low speed electric bicycles (another definition for a 20mph lightweight electric bicycle, of note but not important) - Consumer Protection Safety Organization (ever hear of Specialized, Audi, Fugi going to a Consumer Protection Safety Organization testing facility, nope... they don't exist, there is no need)

B.) Here we define "low-speed electric bicycle" by it's amended constraints, and remember I told you there were a few surprises or loopholes? 2-3 Wheels, that's the same. Fully functional pedals, that's new but no big deal right?. Motor of less than 750 w, not rated at 750 w but just 750 w and 1 hp which means a 4 kw motor detuned to 750 is technically legal.

Ready for the one thing which escapes everyone?
"when powered solely by the motor while being ridden but not pedaled the speed can't exceed 20mph" - the gag is on a modern bike with low resistance tires even average riders can easily sustain 25-30 mph themselves on flats. Now those riders output 200-300w, for argument lets say 200 watts of power... According to the 20mph unless they are also putting in power (pedaling) which since 200-250w would cover 20 mph if you pedal a tad even without effort you can turn up the full 750w for 3x the power output and 5-8 mph faster speeds (lots of fun and legal).

D.) I think is my personal Favorite:

"This section shall supersede any State law or requirement
with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that
such State law or requirement is more stringent than the
Federal law or requirements referred to in subsection (a).
And that my ES Facebook Friends is why eBikes are actually legal at a federal level and any state laws which restrict, prohibit on roadways, etc, or attempt to pass inspection ordinances or such are in direct violation of this FEDERAL LAW and the body which has jurisdiction over it.

Once they write you a ticket, take your bike, etc... you have a FEDERAL CIVIL SUIT and those lawyers love this shit when your right and can prove it.

It will require a proper Legal Enforcement or Mode modification so you have on and off road but we can come up with that, faster than you think.

In that legal mode, you are 100% protected by Federal Laws.

I will obviously take any arguments as I can always be wrong, not a lawyer but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night...

Seriously a question for all of you, what country, state or province and town or city do you live in, what are you eBike "laws" what are speed limits? I know in the Germany you can have 350 but must always be pedaling and No Throttle allowed so pure low powered pedal assist and above the kph limit the motor must stop applying further power...

What are your locals like, just for all of our references?

But now my US eBike Friends know where they stand Legally if ever there is a problem, you can also print copies of the HR 727 law, I keep that a copy of the 401 to 1 vote to make it law and the addended law requiring pedals and having the 20mph without rider input or whatever the other change was.

Hey on the lighter side of things, did you see the "Lightweight" weight limit for the bike dry? 100 lbs?
Lets see Full Sus - 35 lbs (no carbon)
Recumpence dual stage Davinci drive with 3215 or 3220 - 6-7 lbs
Strong freewheeling Bottom Bracket Drive - 4 lbs
2000w Charger in Panier or Trunk or Bar Bag wherever - 6 lbs
----
Total weight without batteries: 52 lbs so 48 lbs left for packs...

Assuming 12S Lipo and 4T 3220 or 6T 3220 169 kV

Now the power pack - how does 50AH 12S 20C sound at just about 43 lbs, thats 2200 wh or 1000 miles range at 22wh per, 500 miles if your really pushing for 50wh per mile Better than any car out there

Okay, yes that's kinda absurd (unless your Justin Le and your planning a cross country trip with 3 stops from canada to california) but imagine what 100 lbs of bike would be capable of, guess the MotoPed offroad bikes are legal if they have pedals - should make quick disconnect - ive seen em somewhere.

That was my .50c Sorry to go on so long but I'm passionate about my convictions that Federal Law Protects us eBikers

Peace (-<)

-Mike

 

[gogo]

Did they 'confiscate' your bike as punishment, or did they tow and impound your bike with an option to pay fees and recover it?

HR727 settled the question of whether the NHTSA or the CPSC have responsibility for safety regulation of that definition of device. State and Local laws determine rules of use, including prohibition.

 

[mwkeefer]

Did they 'confiscate' your bike as punishment, or did they tow and impound your bike with an option to pay fees and recover it?

HR727 settled the question of whether the NHTSA or the CPSC have responsibility for safety regulation of that definition of device. State and Local laws determine rules of use, including prohibition.

Read it again - unless such rules restrictnt the federal, it's right there!

 

[teklektik]

Not this again....

Read it again - unless such rules restrictnt the federal, it's right there!

Exactly 100% correct.

No state can impose stiffer restrictions limiting the manufacturing classification of Light Weight Electric Bicycles. For instance, a State cannot say that an ebike can go no faster than 10mph max without pedaling to be able to be SOLD in a State. The state must allow bikes up to 20mph (w/o pedaling) to be SOLD or MANUFACTURED. This is the mandate of the CPSC - product safety, not road use enforcement.

No matter what angle or twist you try to put on this, there are are NO federal rules regarding USE.

Please see this commentary for a legal view:
Legal analysis: Confusion over electric bike regulations - in particular:

The other problem is that these federal regulations only affect the manufacture and first sale of these devices, not where, when, how, who and under what other conditions (age limits, licenses, insurance, registration etc.) they can be operated. The federal law has no “preemptive effect” over such state laws.

 

[gogo]

What teklektik said.

Ready for the one thing which escapes everyone?
"when powered solely by the motor while being ridden but not pedaled the speed can't exceed 20mph" - the gag is on a modern bike with low resistance tires even average riders can easily sustain 25-30 mph themselves on flats. Now those riders output 200-300w, for argument lets say 200 watts of power... According to the 20mph unless they are also putting in power (pedaling) which since 200-250w would cover 20 mph if you pedal a tad even without effort you can turn up the full 750w for 3x the power output and 5-8 mph faster speeds (lots of fun and legal).

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CRPT-107hrpt5/html/CRPT-107hrpt5.htm
Summary: This bill would assign to the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) jurisdiction for regulating the safety of low-power electric bicycles.
…
Since low-speed electric bicycles are designed not to exceed the maximum speed of a human-powered bicycle, and they are typically used in the same manner as human-powered bicycles, electric bicycles should be regulated in the same manner and under the same agency (the CPSC) as human-powered bicycles.

I used to like to interpret Iowa law as allowing me to apply the 750W at speeds over 20MPH as long as I'm pedaling. After reading the link I provided, I wouldn't want to test it in court. It seems a reasonable interpretation, in light of the 'equivalency' argument, that the motor can't be contributing above 20 MPH.

It seems NJ and NY are simply dragging their feet legislatively. Arizona's law is a bit repressive in that they want to penalize eBike riders even if they aren't using assist power when going above 20 MPH. I could easily get an LEO in Iowa interpreting our law the same way, and it could even be ruled that way by a judge. I'm actually fine with being allowed to use 750W for everything less than 20 MPH, because it implies a 'fudge factor' for going 20 MPH up hills and into the wind. A 30 MPH headwind is enough to make you want to dismount a pedal-only bike. :wink:

Just to muddy the waters further, check out this article about mopeds in Nebraska not being subject to DUI law:
http://journalstar.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/judge-mopeds-not-covered-under-state-dui-laws/article_0ef1b48e-c510-5d2e-bdd7-c640dea2e759.html

 

[arkmundi]

Hey, thanks for the post & discourse. I've posted in other threads on the topic at hand, because being street legal is a good thing to strive for any eBiker wanting to stay on the friendly side of those with authority to ticket and/or impound. While you may be technically correct, the practicality of your local laws is paramount. City ordinance trumps state statutes trumps federal consumer protection laws. Yes I did read what you said - your local police are still going to do what they think is right.

I have threatened to, and will, take the City to court to insure my free unencumbered passage on the roads, should that arise. Hasn't yet and hope it won't but better to be prepared. I'll take any argument I can, including this. But, most importantly, I went to my doctor for a Handicapped placard from my DMV and got one, which I carry visibly displayed. I have stared down many authorities, from the security guy at my library to the MBTA police at the train station and so far every one has backed down. I'll do the same with the police should they stop me, which they haven't. I have a lot of fun riding down the street right next to a police car, and keeping up, big grin on my face. They just wave and laugh. Its a do very little harm mode of transportation.

Sorry for your bad experience.

 

[Joe T.]

Reading this thread makes me think all these rules are for production vehicles. What about home made bikes that are built by the same guy who is riding it. The Consumer Product Safety Commission is not regulating what you are building for personal use. My bike is for fun and I ride it all over. As I interpret the law, I say it goes 18 MPH. This, in my mind, makes it fit under the rules of a simple bicycle. If I have it in low gear and max throttle it goes 15 MPH.

I have been riding my ebike on all types of trails and local streets and have yet to have any negative comment or dirty look. Most people who notice that it is something other than a conventional bike seem to love it.

 

[arkmundi]

Yea, exactly! I get nothing but thumbs up, grins and bemusement, so what's the problem? None. We're doing good. And for those going car-free (muh), its heroic, especially if undertaken in a self-regimen to achieve net-zero. Yes, about manufacturing bikes. But the roads are governed so everyone can safely share them and the police are given jurisdiction. I feel I'm on a bicycle, albeit electric-assist. No one should care. But someday, knowing the applicable laws is going to come in handy.

 

[Ykick]

We're pretty easy to spot, ya know? Actually stopping at stops, being gracious about right-of-ways, always a good line, no struggling and above all, that GRIN...

Law's a mess and I'm the last guy to attempt to figure it out. I've saved a decent war-chest and will just be ready to rock & roll if/when the situation arises.

 

[amberwolf]

Sorry, Mwkeefer, it's not a law, definition, or rule about anything other than what manufacturers can call an electric bicycle they intend to sell as such (vs other types of vehicles).

We've gone over this many many times here on ES, and there are other discussions of it elsewhere, though lots and lots and lots of people misinterpret it.

It seems pretty clear to me, being part of the CPSC regulations, not DOT, and from the wording in it, that even aside from the way transportation laws work in the USA, it isn't what you (and many others) think it is.

It has nothing to do with what individual states can do, as they can regulate their own transportation / vehicle rules as they see fit (although if they "decline" to meet some of the federal guidelines they may be denied federal funding for some things...this hasn't included any bicycle definition stuff that I've ever seen).


If your state / locality chooses to regulate things such that bicycles are defined so that yours doesn't meet them, that's their choice. If you want to change it, figure out what you'd like to see as the local/state definition of an electric bicycle, then start a local/state campaign to push that into local/state law.

But beware that others are going to want something different, and may either fight you, or may twist what you asked for into something different, especially once (if) it actually makes it into lawmakers' hands. :/

 

[dogman dan]

Ditto

But a cop might buy your argument, if so Muy Bueno! Municipal judges might be so ignorant they buy your argument too! Guys have pulled it off before, waving that federal consumer product law around.

Street use in any USA state is set by that states motor vehicle statutes. Period. So a state can enact an ebike law covering riding it or prohibiting it, on public roadways. On private property, ride anything you want.

Cities and towns, state parks, BLM, Forest service, etc can also enact any rule they want covering ebike use on multi use trails. They can and do post signs saying NO motors of any kind. They can also post signs saying no motor vehicles. If that is the case, your ebike may not be a motor vehicle, as defined by your state DMV.

In my town, I ignore all such prohibitions, and simply ride at a safe sub 20 mph speed, and act like a gentleman on those trails.

 

[2old]

Happy to live in CA where there are enough lycra clad roadies powering around at 25 mph that an ebike isn't noticed. However, I stay away from most recreational areas so as not to incite the hikers and equestrians, many of whom barely tolerate mtb's and would ban them if they could.

 

[arkmundi]

Ditto... In my town, I ignore all such prohibitions, and simply ride at a safe sub 20 mph speed, and act like a gentleman on those trails.

Sage advise. Our public parks don't allow dogs unleashed or doing their thing - an understandable & civil ordinance that's really common sense. Yet dog owners come with their dogs, unleash them and let them do their thing, and without even the courtesy of a pickup. I remember my frustration one summer as it had gotten out of hand and in a moment of lost control, confronted one dog owner. I came along, picked up the dog's left-behinds and with that in hand engaged with the dog owner. What I really wanted to do was rub it in his face, but I did show an modicum of restraint and merely pointed out that it was illegal, uncivil, there were lots of other people in the park and would he just simply stop. Yeah, I know. Why did I really expect an uncivil guy to not also be rude, even obnoxiously so, maybe even violently so. I was about 2 seconds from rubbing it in his face before disengaging. About 20 feet apart I unloosed my sh*t bomb at him and ran (no ebike at the time).

Point being is that everyone ignores the laws they want to - its common practice. The only question is how egregious, can you get away with it and what are the penalties if you don't. We could all draw up a list of laws we ignore. Riding my eBike is one of mine. Call it civil disobedience. I ride everywhere, the parks, trails, roads, sidewalks and yea, inside the Post Office, Library, grocery store, etc. My DMV handicap placard has made me bold, maybe even stupid.

But I am a gentleman, act so and whenever stopped, politely explain my circumstance, call my eBike a wheelchair and continue as if privileged. So far, so good. Attitude can be everything in these circumstances. I await the day the police stop me as I'm really curious how that's going to transpire.

 

[Joe T.]

In my town, I ignore all such prohibitions, and simply ride at a safe sub 20 mph speed, and act like a gentleman on those trails.

This is how I play the game too. I have been around a long time. Back in the day everybody had a dirt bike trail through their yard. It was OK. Then people started to abuse this and soon you can't ride a dirt bike anywhere. I built my ebike specifically because it is quiet and can go unnoticed by most people.

The demise of the ebike will be speed. When you can crash into a jogger with a 90# bike and cause serious damage, the law will take notice. I would just assume stay unnoticed.

 

[Ch00paKabrA]

In my town, I ignore all such prohibitions, and simply ride at a safe sub 20 mph speed, and act like a gentleman on those trails.

This is how I play the game too. I have been around a long time. Back in the day everybody had a dirt bike trail through their yard. It was OK. Then people started to abuse this and soon you can't ride a dirt bike anywhere. I built my ebike specifically because it is quiet and can go unnoticed by most people.

The demise of the ebike will be speed. When you can crash into a jogger with a 90# bike and cause serious damage, the law will take notice. I would just assume stay unnoticed.

Well said!

I think the 3 speed switch that I got for about $1.00 from EM3EV was one of my best purchases. I generally keep it at around 15 to 18 on the street and then off road I can have at it!

'Cal

 

[arkmundi]

I think the 3 speed switch that I got for about $1.00 from EM3EV was one of my best purchases. I generally keep it at around 15 to 18 on the street and then off road I can have at it! 'Cal

Have to admit I was initially skeptical of the 3-speed switch and almost did not install it. But I use it all the time now. The speeds are 1> sidewalk, indoors & slow mode, 2> normal operation as the motor & bike gearing are well matched, so I pedal a lot, 3> straight clear roadway and haul ass. That last means I'm on lowest (fastest) gearing for the Trek Shift 3. If I'm going on an incline I can pedal. If I'm on a slight decline, no use pedalling because I can't keep up. On the straights I pedal but its like not much effort. Running a MAC 10T at 2000 watts is awesome!

 

[mwkeefer]

Reading this thread makes me think all these rules are for production vehicles. What about home made bikes that are built by the same guy who is riding it. The Consumer Product Safety Commission is not regulating what you are building for personal use. My bike is for fun and I ride it all over. As I interpret the law, I say it goes 18 MPH. This, in my mind, makes it fit under the rules of a simple bicycle. If I have it in low gear and max throttle it goes 15 MPH.

The rules and definition for "Lightweight Electric Bicycles" could not be clearer if read in order and from a perspective of basic legal knowledge (again not a lawyer but I've checked with a federal attorney and two state/local attorneys - add an Unnamed US ADA (Prosecutor) for Eastern District of Pennsylvania to that list now who also agrees with my interpretation) not just production (ie: Major Manufacturers) but also home built bikes which comply with the Federal Laws. Additionally there is no mention of these LEBs for short being from a Manufacture, just the limits. Oddly enough there are also Zero compliance or inspection regulations set forth by the Consumer Protection Safety Department / Act, which I suppose isn't odd since they also don't have one in place for normal bicycles (ever seen the SHIT they sell as a bicycle on Alibaba or seen a good bike manufacturer snap a frame?)

Based on what you describe as your bicycle, it maxes out under motorized power at 15-18 mph on a full charged pack and produces no more than 750w of street power output (so if it's 80% efficient between motor and drive train losses, you can have wattage at approx 750w + 20% extra or 900 electrical watts at the motor for 1HP power output at the wheel... slightly grey area but all attorneys and prosecutor agree if it went to court the mere fact that you did ALL you could to comply even if you goofed by 150 watts they would still rule it in a pre-hearing motion as a "Lightweight Electric Bicycle" and the judge would simply direct you to correct the issue (but only if the CPSA decided that my basis of calculation isn't their intent, they now set the legal definitions after congress first set them).

Back to your bike, is it under 900w electrical power, does maximum of 18mph and weighs less than 100 lbs without you on it... oh and has working pedals then most certainly yes you are 100% compliant with Federal definition (which does override all state and local laws which would further restrict power or speed levels) of a "Lightweight Electric Bicycle" and thus not a Motor Vehicle and not subject to Motor Vehicle jurisdiction or Laws *(Except for DUI law, being above the state limit while operating a fully legal "Lightweight Electric Bicycle" will get you a DUI but... then again so will a skate board, a normal bicycle and even a segway - the only true method of drunk travel without concern for DUI is ... wait for it, a Horse because as living, sentient creatures your a passenger and they are in control). Given this, the DUI exception makes sense legally and there is ample precedence for it.

I have been riding my ebike on all types of trails and local streets and have yet to have any negative comment or dirty look. Most people who notice that it is something other than a conventional bike seem to love it.

By law it goes -> Pedestrians, Horse Riders (yes no shit), Horse Drawn Carriage or Buggy, Bicyclists, Motor Vehicle Drivers (not Automobile but that's a different legal argument - IE: Justice William Tolman 1838 Washington Supreme Court - Right to drive, look it up if your interested), commercial vehicles... I can't recall the remainder of pecking order but it's order of Right of Travel and Way.

I too ride on all types of Trails, Roads and even Highways (though if posted no Pedestrians or Bicycles I am breaking the law doing so and I know it) and I've had a few dirty looks and fewer complaints or run ins with law enforcement or my favorite Mall Cops who insist that I can't walk my bike through the mall to which I pull out my iPhone and show them there is a No Skating and a No Smoking Signage, even Shirt and Shoes required but no where is it posted no Bicycles - lol

You are correct that most who notice it are intrigued by it, even the police for the most part.

I hope this helps to clarify the situation a bit more and a 100% compatible (with any eBike) solution is coming soon

-Mike

 

[Chalo]

mwkeefer:

Your wishful thinking aside, no locality or state is required to allow electric bicycles. They're just not, and the CPSC standard doesn't address that issue at all. States and cities can allow e-bikes or ban them as they wish.

Most states have an e-bike statute that allows electric bicycles if there's not a more restrictive local ordinance, and most such statutes use the CPSC definition as the limit on what can be legally considered an e-bike.

 

[arkmundi]

Back to your bike, is it under 900w electrical power, does maximum of 18mph and weighs less than 100 lbs without you on it... oh and has working pedals then most certainly yes you are 100% compliant with Federal definition (which does override all state and local laws which would further restrict power or speed levels) of a "Lightweight Electric Bicycle" and thus not a Motor Vehicle and not subject to Motor Vehicle jurisdiction or Laws -Mike

Some of us are just saying you're wrong and that the local police, since they have jurisdiction can do what they think is right, or not, doesn't matter. The test would come after the fact, in court, if willing to challenge the ticket or worse. Because Judges can overrule the police. And that process can be appealed, all the way to US Supreme Court if the issue is worth fighting for. Then its still not over, because then its possible to enact new laws. But the federal consumer protection bureau DOES NOT have jurisdiction over the roads.

Most states have an e-bike statute that allows electric bicycles if there's not a more restrictive local ordinance, and most such statutes use the CPSC definition as the limit on what can be legally considered an e-bike.

Massachusetts does, and I read it, and its not in our favour, though its useful having the clarity. I'm hoping our local police are oblivious to what's actually on our state statutes regarding eBikes. If not, I pay. At least ignorance of the law is not my issue.

 

[mwkeefer]

Sorry, Mwkeefer, it's not a law, definition, or rule about anything other than what manufacturers can call an electric bicycle they intend to sell as such (vs other types of vehicles).

You know I respect you but I have to point out the flaw in your interpretations:

It indeed is a definition first set in 2001 by the 107th congress. It is also a law, has been since they passed the House Rule. It clearly defines what an Electric Bike is, or rather it's limitations and prevents any other governing body from setting the limits lower. Finally they transfer authority from DOT to CPSC but it is still a definition and a law just like cigarette and gun laws and definitions which are in the jurisdictional purvue of the ATF.

You are right that it defines what can be called an Electric Bicycle but no mention of manufacturers and even if there were, the interpretation or definition of Manufacturer based on the latest Blacks law Dictionary (the defacto standard) is: A person, collective or persons or a company who produces a tangible good by making it. Yes I paraphrased, too lazy to grab my copy but that's the truth... you make add ons for eBikes, torque arms, wire looms, you are a Manufacturer.

We've gone over this many many times here on ES, and there are other discussions of it elsewhere, though lots and lots and lots of people misinterpret it.

It seems pretty clear to me, being part of the CPSC regulations, not DOT, and from the wording in it, that even aside from the way transportation laws work in the USA, it isn't what you (and many others) think it is.

I know we've been over it, too many times so I did the research and legal verification by professionals to reach my earlier post and subsequent explainations.

On the other hand - it's not that it's part of the CPSA/CPSC regulations, but that congress removed the jurisdiction from DOT who govern motor vehicle requirements and road requirements, etc... and put the jurisdiction where it belonged with the Consumer Safety Protection people who already govern and enforce laws, safety requirements, etc for bicycles.

It has nothing to do with what individual states can do, as they can regulate their own transportation / vehicle rules as they see fit (although if they "decline" to meet some of the federal guidelines they may be denied federal funding for some things...this hasn't included any bicycle definition stuff that I've ever seen).

If your state / locality chooses to regulate things such that bicycles are defined so that yours doesn't meet them, that's their choice. If you want to change it, figure out what you'd like to see as the local/state definition of an electric bicycle, then start a local/state campaign to push that into local/state law.

Again I must disagree - it is very clear that no State or Local Government can only pass their own regulation on Lightweight Electric Bicycles aside from pedestrian path if those laws would be more restrictive than the Federal Rule / Law. So PA cannot pass a law saying an Electric Bicycle of 250w is okay but 500w and it's a Motor Vehicle. In fact a compliant Electric Bicycle CANNOT be (unless the FED laws change) diminished nor can a State define it as a Motor Vehicle! As you are aware some states allow 1000w output power and 30mph, perfectly legal as it does not diminish the federal restrictions it expands the power limits they set as the bare minimum legally allowable.

But beware that others are going to want something different, and may either fight you, or may twist what you asked for into something different, especially once (if) it actually makes it into lawmakers' hands. :/

Okay here I will not argue with you, lawmakers can and will do what they want but... based on the report 107-5 all federal entities concluded their would be Zero impact financial or in life losses over normal bicycles (which are not registered and never will require registration, not even in communist china or convenience tax heavy England).

Now it's not the federal lawmakers to be concerned with, it's the local idiots who know best as you put before Local Governments, Municipalities, etc. Once they begin infringing and then enforcing (the key, they must actually enforce) and if you make them aware of the Federal Rule and governing definitions and law (nicely without being a smart ass) then not only have they given you action to fight their law because it's caused you harm finally (the only way to file a lawsuit against government or laws really anyone) but in addition if you gave them notice - they then pierced the veil which if you know corporate law (UCC) then you realize makes them jointly and severally liable for any and all damages including emotional, etc... this means you get to sue the police involved, any MJD and anyone else not just civilly but you also would have grounds for malicious prosecution misconduct and harassment.

The problem is you have to be willing to fight the fight, most arent and take a plea or worse... the judge sees he's in a loosing position and if he hears the case and has to rule his chances of being overturned on appeal are near 100% (Still leaves harassment and perhaps civil suit against the police)

Personally I am an American, a real American (not to claim anyone is less patriotic or less American) and by definition and my convictions, I will do whatever I must and can to protect what little freedoms we still have in this country! My friends, family and countrymen gave life and limb and at best got the worst cases of PTSD I've ever seen. I was a medical rejection and I don't equate what I do with serving my country in the military but damn it I can stand up for what is right, take the inevitable harassment, inconvenience, anxiety and anything else they can throw my way and I NEVER SURRENDER.

In short, bring it on State, Local Government and police.... please stop me, issue me citations and give me not only my day in court to either set precedence or even better uphold the tickets, don't dismiss the case and give me actionable cause to really GO PITT BULL on you legally!

Come to think of it, we need another thread for EVERYONE to report any incidents of police Harrassment (video proof or not but honest reports only), tickets given, threats made, bicycles confiscated, costs incurred, outcome of court action, etc... Because again on this one Amberwolf you are right, and with all the eBikers out there (or even just here) surely 10-20% of us have had issues and likely more in NY and NJ on the east coast as they seem to think they are above the law (look at Fat Ass Governor) - I think we could be looking at (if not now, eventually) a fantastic class action civil suit!

Okay people, what do you think of documenting the abuse or violation of the federal rule and over reach of State and Local Government and Police?

-Mike

 

[slacker]

Mwkeefer,+1 priceless. Good day.

 

[aroundqube]

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2013&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=0573&pn=4170 Mike, good to have you posting on ES again. Perhaps while you were otherwise occupied , you did not get the news .

 

[arkmundi]

... documenting the abuse or violation of the federal rule and over reach of State and Local Government and Police?

Reminds me of Texas redneck days. Yeeeehaaa! Not really..haahaa :lol: We've got a very good local police force, at least compared with the likes of Ferguson or Detroit. Very little abuse and very friendly. So when that BlueBlood pulls me over, I'll do what I advise everyone to do when dealing with the police: 1> show respect, 2> say nothing, absolutely nothing, and 3> comply. Everything you say can be held against you -Miranda. Then take my case to Court, and I believe I've got a good case.

 

[mwkeefer]

Damn, is the DogMan.... All the experts and old school techs are coming out of the woodwork against me, thought you guys would be more supportive I spent nearly 2 days of my own research and consulted multiple attorneys (paid myself for them) to assess this and hopefully put it to bed once and for all.

Just kidding, your input is always welcome (even when wrong, lol)

Ditto
But a cop might buy your argument, if so Muy Bueno! Municipal judges might be so ignorant they buy your argument too! Guys have pulled it off before, waving that federal consumer product law around.

Most cops either don't buy the argument or they expect your either a lawyer or the son of a lawyer and figure you are not worth the paperwork, headache, court appearances, etc - it's why I'm always polite and respectful, I use courtroom demeanor and that scares em more because I'm not the guy you want to argue against in court... Judges and juries love me Some cops hate that the government makes them pursue such ridiculous shit when there are real issues to deal with and won't bother, those are my favorite. Some know the law because they have eBikes or have friends or family who ride them, those are the ones who seem most interested in how cool an eBike may be, love those too!

Ditto
Street use in any USA state is set by that states motor vehicle statutes. Period. So a state can enact an ebike law covering riding it or prohibiting it, on public roadways. On private property, ride anything you want.

Yes and No, in our case... No
A few quick examples of the Feds controlling State roadways (again Freeways, Turnpikes and the such are the exclusion and in many cases the Feds enacted the laws of no pedestrians on those roadways, the states are merely agreeing it - check it out, the federal highway act that prohibits came before and was enforced before the state laws were even on the books).

They also can't enact an "eBike law" - possession is a legal term which means many things but all the meanings are derived from higher courts setting their meaning or our legal system having inherited them from the UK legal system - thank god we don't have to wear wigs. If someone hands you a gun or better yet, something more believable a bowl of say Mary Jane and without thinking you take it and pass it on (not smoking mind you). Technically you possessed or were in possession of paraphernalia. These definitions are in Blacks Law Dictionary and also in legal opinions and rulings dating back likely 100 years.

By the same token - defining "legal" e bikes as Lightweight Electric Bicycles and precluding the States from classifying them as Motor Vehicles, any legislation they could create would not be able to single out Electric Bicycles but could in theory be passed against or effecting all Bicycles in general.

Ditto
Cities and towns, state parks, BLM, Forest service, etc can also enact any rule they want covering ebike use on multi use trails. They can and do post signs saying NO motors of any kind. They can also post signs saying no motor vehicles. If that is the case, your ebike may not be a motor vehicle, as defined by your state DMV.

State Parks Receive Federal Funding but I do believe you are right in that they have the authority to prevent you riding trails (odd since eBikes are Bicycles, maybe a good test case for getting an actionable situation, thanks) however they couldn't' stop you riding into the park like a normal bicycle and chaining your bike up. BLM is also federal and prohibits (had to check this one out) all bicycles, motorcycles, ATVs, un approved motor vehicles, farm equipment, and even livestock if the owner doesn't have an agreement in place to lease the land for the price of 1.00 too. So yes BLM is an exception but not just to eBikes, they are trying to preserve the land, no issues with that. Forest service, aside from Bicycle Trails - I agree they too are Federal and have the mandate and right to protect the forest - they also prevent the same vehicles as BLM and in addition no illegal hunting or timbering.

Not that I suggest this or would do it but I had a friend who used to ride this whacked out KX80 converted to electric in the BellPlain forest - protected land in NJ and they have cops who come (rangers) after tresspassers with ATVs and such... they are serious about this. This guy hops a hill out of the Bell Plain onto Route 55 and begins riding down the side of the road to the next exit where police NJ Troopers catch him. He wasn't cited for trespass or riding the bell plain but for riding a motor equipped vehicle on RT55 which is marked (though only at entrances in his defense, dumb ass he was).

Punchline: This dude (dumb as a stump but great researcher) actually found patents granted for 3 phase BLDC "motors" but the patent (approved) application defined it as a "3 phase electronic propulsion device". There were 4 more applications he found with similiar term, not one had the words motor or engine in them and the Judge had a great laugh while dismissing the case.

Moral is DEFINITION is everything when it comes to the law

Ditto
In my town, I ignore all such prohibitions, and simply ride at a safe sub 20 mph speed, and act like a gentleman on those trails.

I too ignore any local prohibitions and ride conservatively though not at 20 mph usually and I too act as a courteous gentleman on trails and even the road where applicable and I've only had 2 police run ins in the past 6-7 years and only one that resulted in a case, which of course I got dismissed (if only I knew now I should have pled not guilty and then gotten convicted just to have a case against them).

Thanks to all for the feedback, ideas and counter arguments...

 

[Joe T.]

Back to your bike, is it under 900w electrical power, does maximum of 18mph and weighs less than 100 lbs without you on it... oh and has working pedals then most certainly yes you are 100% compliant with Federal definition (which does override all state and local laws which would further restrict power or speed levels) of a "Lightweight Electric Bicycle" and thus not a Motor Vehicle and not subject to Motor Vehicle jurisdiction or Laws *(Except for DUI law, being above the state limit while operating a fully legal "Lightweight Electric Bicycle" will get you a DUI but... then again so will a skate board, a normal bicycle and even a segway - the only true method of drunk travel without concern for DUI is ... wait for it, a Horse because as living, sentient creatures your a passenger and they are in control). Given this, the DUI exception makes sense legally and there is ample precedence for it.

I'm going to say I have 450W as it is a bone stock GNG mid drive kit with 48V. I say 18 MPH but the truth is it can go 27 MPH in high hear on flat road. The bike is ~60# on the scale ready to ride..... and working pedals.