MXUS 3000 Hub Motor - V1 V2 V3

[Doctorbass]

It use 100v fet and can give really high phase amp! however to achieve these rating, it must be used under 90V and best is using 20s or 84-86Vdc max from what Oleg from Adaptto drive lab said to me to allow max phase current without danger fo rthe controller. it is also a question of motor inductance. The higher it is the less overvoltage spike the mosfet will see.
The thumb rule is to say that for each 100A phase current, you get 10v above the batt voltage.

I think that since 100v rated mosfet are capable generally to take 110 or 115v absolute max, When using 20s, average volt of 74V leave you 115V - 74V = 41V of overvoltage above the battery voltage so this is about 410A phase current...

That is the best understanding I have found.

Doc

Doc, you were provided some faulty information. The MOSFET is not suitable for any use without margin for error being taken into account. You can find out the actual voltage of MOSFET by causing an avalanche event. I've accidentally done this on IRFP4568 (150V rated) and saw the avalanche event at ~155V on my scope. So there is a tiny margin above 150V for the devices I tested at ~25C. I haven't tested a IRFP4110, but devices should never be run at their maximum rating. All it takes is an environmental change to shift the failure point.

What is this thumb rule? I have not seen this before and it doesn't make sense to me.

The thumb rule is to say that for each 100A phase current, you get 10v above the batt voltage.

The inductive "kick back" has the following relationship
V(t) = -L di/dt

As can be seen from the math the rate of current change multiplied by the inductance = the voltage out of the inductor. If the rate of current change is held constant (di/dt) then the inductor value (L) determines the voltage generated and the higher the L the higher the voltage.

I'm leaving lots of detail out here and trying to keep it high level so people eyes don't glaze over.

Thanks Zombiess

Well the margin of about 10-15% more is from many user of the 4110 infineon in the past that reported being able to drive up to 110 or even 115V on their 4110.. I know this is serching for trouble as well.. but i wanted just to give a reference point of how far these can be pushed as from experience of many 4110 user on E-S back to 5-6 years ago.

I agree that it is required to keep a safety margin too!

The thumb rule is from the russian ebike forum and from Jeka or Andreym, i dont remember whitch has said that to me. Jeka is the creator of the Adaptto.

The 10V per 100A is probably from experience and by estimating the average motor inductance. But i find it to work well from now.

Thanks for the additional math!

As for the adaptto the clear statement is to use 20s for being able to get the max POWER from the adaptto.

In my case, i might have pushed a bit too far the discovery and test when i used my adaptto to my 5302 ( 2 turn !!) and very low inductance with 22s NMC cells... It blown exactly in the same circunstance as all my blown lyon controllers...

One thing for sure to remember: the fast motor are more controller killer than slow motor!.. I never blown any controlelr with my 5304 or 5305.. but it hapenned many times with my 5302 and 5303!.

 

[madin88]

Im no expert in this but i do not understand why adaptto do not use better caps (with lower ESR) and additional ceramic types or different ones for similar purpose.
the electrolytic caps i have used for modifying my Max-E have 4 times the ripple current rating, much higher lifetime and more µF. to make them fit was no problem - even aside from larger wires.

 

[Allex]

Could it be the price?

 

[ecross]

probably the 96V sabvoton is a good choice, but im not sure if it can do over 150A battery..

btw: afaik kelly will offer soon FOC controllers

@madin88: maybe it is better to change to 20S16P and go to max-e like you, or? How is your new setup, you changed from 22S VTC4 to 20S R25 right?
(with 4503 motor, 3Turns)

 

[teslanv]

The Sabvoton 72V controller can handle up to 95V max, and output 150A Battery/350A Phase, with FOC. It is considerably less $ than an Adaptto system, but of course doesn't come with a BMS or read-out. It is programmable, though.



View attachment 1

 

[Ohbse]

The Sabvoton 72V controller can handle up to 95V max, and output 150A Battery/350A Phase, with FOC. It is considerably less $ than an Adaptto system, but of course doesn't come with a BMS or read-out. It is programmable, though

Note that there's also a new model with very similar specifications that's a bit more dense in terms of volume, though a little wider. Appears to have much the same specifications. You might find that version difficult to locate soon if they're phasing it out.

 

[ohzee]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VAE-E-BIKE-BRUSHLESS-MOTOR-HUB-72V-3000W-E-BIKE-E-MOTO-/191459547049?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c93e0d7a9

Thought that looked interesting since I thought these were getting harder to find. If the wrong thread let me know and Ill remove my post.

 

[Hugechainring]

Well, I was playing around with it. And if you move the wheel diameter smaller, you get longer range, less speed of course. It was interesting to see that with my own eyes on the motor simulator.

If you experiment with certain motor/wheel combos, you'll find a smaller wheel will give you both more speed and more range.

Also, there's more than one variable at work. A smaller wheel allows the motor to spin at a higher RPM for a given speed, moving it up the efficiency curve. Everything being the same, as the speed drops eventually due specifying a smaller and smaller wheel, the load due to aerodynamic drag drops as well, also extending your range.
For not-so-aerodynamic vehicles, drag goes up as the square of speed. So to go twice as fast takes four times the power. Generally, efficiency rules at slower speeds, but going aero at higher speeds takes over as far as power/range goes. I ran a full throttle simulation on the MXUS45V02 using the "Mountain" vs the "Race bike" tabs around 40MPH. I got 33% more range by tucking, plus an increase of 3mph.

 

[teslanv]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VAE-E-BIKE-BRUSHLESS-MOTOR-HUB-72V-3000W-E-BIKE-E-MOTO-/191459547049?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c93e0d7a9

Thought that looked interesting since I thought these were getting harder to find. If the wrong thread let me know and Ill remove my post.

Not hard to find at all. :wink:

 

[diggler]

I've been looking at those sabvoton controllers a lot lately.
I like how the slip regen is programmable. You can set the rpm it engages and how many amps it regens.
So the 72v one can do 95 that's good info there.
I wonder what the 96v one is good up to?
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-96V6000W-programable-sine-wave-controller-dc-motor-controller-electric-bike-controller/32287521967.html

 

[Hugechainring]

The Sabvoton 72V controller can handle up to 95V max, and output 150A Battery/350A Phase, with FOC. It is considerably less $ than an Adaptto system, but of course doesn't come with a BMS or read-out. It is programmable, though.

That's very much a conditional statement. If that controller, and its replacement are still using IRFB4110s, going for full battery power and max phase amps at 95V is an opportunity for failure. Reference this review here for real world performance and suggested operation.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=62240

In addition, if you look at the spec sheet posted above, the performance listed for the 72150 is at approx 70V, well below than the breakdown voltage of the FETS. This leaves enough headroom for those nasty voltage spikes that occur.

The 96V controllers madin88 mentioned are 96V nominal (vs 72V), with headroom up to 125V or so. Different FETS and caps.

 

[teslanv]

My Inspection database.



You can really start to understand the fine details of how these motors work, once you see hard data organized in a logical fashion.

You will notice that the second batch of motors (first batch serial numbers begin with "1502" and second batch are "1503") have lower phase resistance measurements for each turn-count. I suspect this is due to my request that MXUS shorten up the phase wire bundle from 1 meter to 0.7 Meters. -A good reason to either shorten your phase wires or replace them with larger ones. And there is one anomaly on the 3T set, where the phase resistance is 0.060 Ohms. This one is very low because I cut the wire super short. Further evidence that shorter wires significantly affect the phase resistance.

The other observation I have made is that there is a clear differentiation of No Load Current/watts for each winding, with the higher turn-count motors consuming much less power than the low-turn count motors.

 

[Doctorbass]

Excellent info! :wink:

Doc

 

[ebikedelight]

Tesla..great info ..

Maybe you should try and outline the benefits of each type motor you are selling , on your website...

for example...

for your average rider, I would think they would be interested in no more then a top speed of 30-35 mph with the best torque/ efficency possible, using a 48 volt battery setup and a controller in the 20 -60 amp ranges.....so tell us what motor would best achieve that ...


then maybe suggest what motor would be best for people who want higher speeds { 40 + mph} ...running at 60 volts or higher..

etc..etc...

I think it would greatly help most people, who are not technical with this stuff...and need solid advice from someone as informed as you.

 

[madin88]

thanks for sharing your measurements teslanv. seems like the lower inductance of 3T motor causes a little bit higher losses per RPM. however, it will be better to have a higher kV motor than squeeze out more speed with flux weakening of a lower a kV motor.

what controller have you used?

 

[teslanv]

thanks for sharing your measurements teslanv. seems like the lower inductance of 3T motor causes a little bit higher losses per RPM. however, it will be better to have a higher kV motor than squeeze out more speed with flux weakening of a lower a kV motor.

what controller have you used?

My 60 MPH Run was done with a Lyen (Infineon/Xie Chang) controller. 18FET IRFB4110. 80A Battery & 180A Phase on 100V of 6S 16AH Multistars, in 1P. Controller was programmed for "Speed" set to 120%

I have to note, however, that running these motors at this high of battery & phase current is not enjoyable at anything other than Straight ahead and WOT. Trying to ride around town with these settings is brutal. I much prefer 50A Battery & 100A Phase for a more gentle cruise.

These motors really need a current throttle for higher power.

 

[zombiess]

I have to note, however, that running these motors at this high of battery & phase current is not enjoyable at anything other than Straight ahead and WOT. Trying to ride around town with these settings is brutal. I much prefer 50A Battery & 100A Phase for a more gentle cruise.

These motors really need a current throttle for higher power.

If only someone would design, build and sell a device for just above his cost that made the Xie Chang throttle easier to control with high power settings

 

[teslanv]

If only someone would design, build and sell a device for just above his cost that made the Xie Chang throttle easier to control with high power settings

http://greyborgusa.com/product/throttle-tamer

When will you have more in stock, Zombiess?

 

[zombiess]

I need to talk to my web guy about that, I have around 30 left. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Samd]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VAE-E-BIKE-BRUSHLESS-MOTOR-HUB-72V-3000W-E-BIKE-E-MOTO-/191459547049?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c93e0d7a9

Thought that looked interesting since I thought these were getting harder to find. If the wrong thread let me know and Ill remove my post.

Not hard to find at all. :wink:

That's just a v1.

 

[Allex]

I have to note, however, that running these motors at this high of battery & phase current is not enjoyable at anything other than Straight ahead and WOT. Trying to ride around town with these settings is brutal. I much prefer 50A Battery & 100A Phase for a more gentle cruise.

These motors really need a current throttle for higher power.

If only someone would design, build and sell a device for just above his cost that made the Xie Chang throttle easier to control with high power settings

http://www.szktdz.com/en/news.php?type=344

SineWave and should be just as cheap as Xie Chang, they have current control instead of speed. To bad they don't have 18FET, maybe they just don't show them...

 

[teslanv]

I have to note, however, that running these motors at this high of battery & phase current is not enjoyable at anything other than Straight ahead and WOT. Trying to ride around town with these settings is brutal. I much prefer 50A Battery & 100A Phase for a more gentle cruise.

These motors really need a current throttle for higher power.

If only someone would design, build and sell a device for just above his cost that made the Xie Chang throttle easier to control with high power settings

http://www.szktdz.com/en/news.php?type=344

SineWave and should be just as cheap as Xie Chang, they have current control instead of speed. To bad they don't have 18FET, maybe they just don't show them...

Tested & Reviewed Here:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=66559

 

[ecologymagnet]

How I must connect the sensor wires for 24 Fets greentime controllers (Leo)?

And what are the cables of the temperature sensor and where can I buy a screen for them?

Thank you.

 

[diggler]

The 96V controllers madin88 mentioned are 96V nominal (vs 72V), with headroom up to 125V or so. Different FETS and caps.

So 28s lipo should be no problem with moderate ~50 amps. Right?

 

[Rix]

The 96V controllers madin88 mentioned are 96V nominal (vs 72V), with headroom up to 125V or so. Different FETS and caps.

So 28s lipo should be no problem with moderate ~50 amps. Right?

Damn!!! how fast you want to go?