My attempt at a lightweight EMTB with torque based PAS

[HrKlev]

BTW, have you checked if you can use one of the KT controllers with OSF (there are a huge thread in here that is still active). I think they can use a torque sensor, and then you have the option to configure all parameters yourself. If you are used to the osf on the tsdz2, it should be a walk in the park

 

[andrea_104kg]

Thanks for the answer, yes, I use osf on the tsdz2, but using it on a kt control unit is not so immediate, it takes many hours and attempts (the tread is hundreds of pages!) You have to open the control unit, weld some wires and from what little I have read there are still many problems. Last but not least, a step-down must be used to power the torque sensor. It is not at all plug and play, just for the correct timing of the hall sensors I see problems. It is not like in the tsdz2 where there is only one motor, in the case of the control units for hub motors the software must adapt to all the control units and all the motors, in theory it works, in practice you risk getting lost in a thousand problems just to do it work, to which are added the problems with the torque sensor ...
Thanks for the pdf, I'm going to read it!

 

[andrea_104kg]

I quickly read the pdf and it appears to be the same as the link I posted yesterday so there is a reasonable chance the cyc sensor will work with the aliexpress controller. Probably the control unit will not be programmable, or it works or it does not work, but it is cheap.
Another question does the 68-83mm sensor, it fit all intermediate lengths? Currently not available, I sent an email to cyc but they are still waiting for an answer ... if they will answer

 

[andrea_104kg]

Another question...
the torque sensor cyc has 6 wires, do you use them all with the cycle analist? I understand what are the red, the black, the green thread of the pas and the white of the torque but the other two ...

 

[HrKlev]

I quickly read the pdf and it appears to be the same as the link I posted yesterday so there is a reasonable chance the cyc sensor will work with the aliexpress controller. Probably the control unit will not be programmable, or it works or it does not work, but it is cheap.
Another question does the 68-83mm sensor, it fit all intermediate lengths? Currently not available, I sent an email to cyc but they are still waiting for an answer ... if they will answer

Yes, I think it is the same unit for all lengths, it probably came with some spacers, I dont remember exactly

 

[HrKlev]

Another question...
the torque sensor cyc has 6 wires, do you use them all with the cycle analist? I understand what are the red, the black, the green thread of the pas and the white of the torque but the other two ...

I tried to find out what the other wires was, but could not find any answers. There are an input on the cycle analyst that says durection, but since the torque sensor only gives pulses in one direction anyway, I dont know what more info it could use. I think I tried to wire up one of the wires to it, but there were no difference. So I only use power, 0v, torque and cadence.

 

[Vbruun]

Thanks for the answer, yes, I use osf on the tsdz2, but using it on a kt control unit is not so immediate, it takes many hours and attempts (the tread is hundreds of pages!) You have to open the control unit, weld some wires and from what little I have read there are still many problems. Last but not least, a step-down must be used to power the torque sensor. It is not at all plug and play, just for the correct timing of the hall sensors I see problems. It is not like in the tsdz2 where there is only one motor, in the case of the control units for hub motors the software must adapt to all the control units and all the motors, in theory it works, in practice you risk getting lost in a thousand problems just to do it work, to which are added the problems with the torque sensor ...
Thanks for the pdf, I'm going to read it!

I came here to write to you that the KT open source firmware is actually pretty good. I use it in my torque sensor bike and it works really well.
Most of the people in the thread having problems are simply not researching well enough, although the dokumentation is also pretty bad.
I use the torque from x4 branch it is less buggy (I have experienced 0 bugs)

 

[HrKlev]

I came here to write to you that the KT open source firmware is actually pretty good. I use it in my torque sensor bike and it works really well.
Most of the people in the thread having problems are simply not researching well enough, although the dokumentation is also pretty bad.
I use the torque from x4 branch it is less buggy (I have experienced 0 bugs)

Very interesting! Do you mind posting a screenshot of the configurator of the version you used? I am curious which parameters there are to play with

 

[andrea_104kg]

Please a courtesy. The 83mm cyc torsiometer is back in stock and I wanted to order it. Is the correct freewheel that of x1 - pro or that of x1 stealth? what is the difference?

 

[HrKlev]

Not sure whats the difference. The stealth was not available when I made my first order, so I ordered a spare x1 pro a few days ago.
2nd gen if I remember correctly.

 

[Vbruun]

Very interesting! Do you mind posting a screenshot of the configurator of the version you used? I am curious which parameters there are to play with

The parameters are the same as in the main branch, so the ones you see here
https://github.com/stancecoke/BMSBatter ... -Java-Tool

The difference is that in this branch, the torque value is put into x4 and the parameters for that are hardcoded.
I use it because it was the one Stancecoke used personally and it seems to be pretty bug free (as opposed to the main I am afraid).

I have mainly been dialing my current target and torque sensor gain in via the tool - I find it runs pretty well if the values are good.

IMO the main downside to this firmware is that you are locked into the KT controllers, which are not that powerful and pretty bulky. But all in all I like it pretty well and it is really cheap compared to the CA route

 

[andrea_104kg]

use google translator....
http://www.jobike.it/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=80959

 

[HrKlev]

Nice! Looks like some interesting builds on that forum as well. Trying to make a user there to be able to search, but its not so easy with translator Think I just need to wait for admin to let me in, now.

On another note, I was out with the fatbike the other day when the rear hub started making lots if weird sounds....



I am not very impressed to find out that the ring inside the hub is cracked and not replaceable. Did some searching, and a new hub and spokes + postage was about the same price as a new wheel with a dt swiss hub. So I ordered that. What a mess for this tiny little piece that should have been easily replaceable.

 

[andrea_104kg]

I can confirm that the torque sensor cyc works with the lishui control unit sold on aliexpres, only I have problems the engine continues to turn for 3-4 seconds after I stop pedaling and this is very dangerous. It also starts immediately at the slightest pressure on the pedals

 

[Ham]

Brilliant build and thread..inspired! Thank you.

I am thinking about my next build and have some experience with the cyc x1 pro but am not overly impressed with the BAC controllers they come with.

I have a spare castle creations hvc160 controller that I would like to try and use on this motor along with the CA3...keeping the torque sensor for power pedalling is a must for me though.

I see you and others have had success using the cyc torque sensor with the CAnalyst.

It looks like you cut the wiring to match connectors between the torque sensor and the CA plug?

How have you found the pas working like this?

Any input is much appreciated.

 

[HrKlev]

Brilliant build and thread..inspired! Thank you.

I am thinking about my next build and have some experience with the cyc x1 pro but am not overly impressed with the BAC controllers they come with.

I have a spare castle creations hvc160 controller that I would like to try and use on this motor along with the CA3...keeping the torque sensor for power pedalling is a must for me though.

I see you and others have had success using the cyc torque sensor with the CAnalyst.

It looks like you cut the wiring to match connectors between the torque sensor and the CA plug?

How have you found the pas working like this?

Any input is much appreciated.

Thanks! The PAS is working a lot better than I was hoping for, actually. I have it setup so the response is very fast (fast throttle ramps and only one or 2 poles averaging if I remember correctly, and zero ramp in the controller). This works great up to around 2.5x human input. Anything above that, and I think I would have to tame it a bit, but should not be a huge problem.
Some of the best feature with the setup is the baserunners "electric freewheel" which allows a little bit of phase amps go to the motor when I am coasting. This keeps the drivetrain spinning, and the motor is ready for immidiate assist whenever needed, dont have to wait for the motor to spin up. Does the CC have this feature?

I attached a screenshot of the datasheet. There are 2 versions available afaik, one with 18 and one with 32 poles. If you have 32 poles you will have update the CA to beta version 3.15b. I connected red, black white and green wires, to the CA, and isolated the 2 others, as I never found out what they do.

I bought a 6 pin higo connector with pigtails so I just could swap out the torque sensor if needed later. The cables were of course a different color, so it was a pita to figure out, but its worth it whenever I need to disassemble.

 

[HrKlev]

I can confirm that the torque sensor cyc works with the lishui control unit sold on aliexpres, only I have problems the engine continues to turn for 3-4 seconds after I stop pedaling and this is very dangerous. It also starts immediately at the slightest pressure on the pedals

Ouch, 3-4 seconds overrund doesnt sound that good. Any way to program it?

And how is the motor you converted running? Its a very interesting thread, but google translate makes it a bit hard to get all the details

 

[HrKlev]

BTW, fatty is up and running again with DT Swiss rear wheel and some new rubber for the winter that is coming.

I also printed a thing from nylon for the derailleur. The SRAM derailleur has always had an insane appetite for absolute every kind if bushes that gets close, and I grew tired of stopping every time I got a little off trail. Doesnt look pretty (especially with the white nylon), but works suprisingly well. I did a very scientifically test before and after on the same path, and I only had to stop 10% of the times with the "bush deflector" installed

 

[Ham]

Thank you,

I have no idea if the CC can do this, I thought I had read that the CA can be set up with the same function irrespective on controller?

How is the PAS from a standstill?

Thanks for your time btw

 

[HrKlev]

Thank you,

I have no idea if the CC can do this, I thought I had read that the CA can be set up with the same function irrespective on controller?

How is the PAS from a standstill?

Thanks for your time btw

No, the CA cant do that, its a function in the controller. Justin explained it in details, I think it was because you need a constant phase current for it to work properly. The CA can only adjust battery current.

You need to make it past 2 poles in the torque before it will start assist. You can have a throttle setup in addition if you need assist from 100% standstill.

 

[Ham]

Thanks for your help

 

[andrea_104kg]

I can confirm that the torque sensor cyc works with the lishui control unit sold on aliexpres, only I have problems the engine continues to turn for 3-4 seconds after I stop pedaling and this is very dangerous. It also starts immediately at the slightest pressure on the pedals

Ouch, 3-4 seconds overrund doesnt sound that good. Any way to program it?

And how is the motor you converted running? Its a very interesting thread, but google translate makes it a bit hard to get all the details

ok, I'll try to explain but for now I can't try the bike, I have to get the sprocket, it's all very experimental, maybe it will only last a few meters
The motor is a front q100h at 36v, 201rpm, however my battery is at 48v, so it will do about 330rpm at no load.
I opened it by making myself a special tool

inside you know him well ...
I disassembled the plate with the pin and I filed the 3 protrusions below with the iron file


Then I adapted the holes to put some screws and screwed the freewheel into the 3 holes. By a lucky coincidence the 3 holes coincide with the original holes
I put a sheet of Teflon on the engine cover so that the freewheel did not make friction, then I reassembled everything, before closing I put a shim so that the plate remains raised from its original position and does not scratch
In this way the axis rotates when the motor is operated
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhUpHW5zvXw[/youtube]
then i bought the lishui controller on aliexpress and the torsometer on cyc motor. I bet they worked together, and in fact they work.
I then built the attachments for the motor with a 4mm steel sheet
however the control unit does not seem to manage the torsometer well. There is a great delay in stopping the engine.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnhNmtlJRl8[/youtube]
The ECU options seem to have no effect, there is no difference when adjusting the sensitivity or force on the pedals.
For now I can't test it on the road because the pinion turns on the axis is not strong enough.
Sorry, i use google translator, i hope it's possible to understand :-(

 

[HrKlev]

Ah, I see now. Thanks for explaining! I am curious to see how long it will last. Interesting project, I hope you figure out the controller. The overrun might be better when you put load on the motor. It looks like some of it is just the motor winding down, which takes some time when you have no load?

 

[andrea_104kg]

I'm more than curious too, unfortunately the sprocket that I have now sled under stress and I can't try it, I have to wait for it to arrive from china ... always hoping it will work! However I will keep you updated. The engine in the original configuration is certainly more reliable, at least I think. If it works the modification is very very simple, there are only 3 holes to fix. One thing I wanted to ask you, I had problems in the freewheel, the ring nut does not tighten it well and there is still a bad play in the crankset. For now I have put a copper washer, in your case there is no play?

 

[HrKlev]

Only play I have is the freewheel itself, so there are some slight play in the chainrings. Like the tsdz2, but way less. No play in the crankset.

Im logging in to your thread in the italian forum once in a while to check for progress