My ebike caught on fire.

Ebike92119

1 mW
Joined
Jun 21, 2022
Messages
18
I have a 52v battery and I’d like to get to more volts. Im thinking about getting a 36v battery. So, 52+36=88v. My controller is rated for 72v. I’m curious if the battery BMS will conflict with wiring different voltage batteries in series and do the batteries need to be the same amp hours?

Thank you.
 
The first question is, *why* do you want more volts? What specifically do you need to do that requires a higher voltage (vs some other property)?

If you really do need more volts, then regarding seriesing batteries:

There's a number of threads that cover the various problems with doing this; some of them are in this list; they should be obvious by title:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=series*+batt*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

This is another similar list:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=series*+pack*&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Aside from those problems, you need to consider actual voltages of the packs, and actual voltage ratings of controllers/etc:

a 52v pack is not just 52v. It's about 58v fully charged (assuming 14s lithium). A 36v pack is not just 36v, its' about 42v fully charged (assuming 10s lithium). A 72v pack (and thus controller) isn't 72v, it's 84v (assuming 20s lithium). 58+42=100v, quite a bit over the controller's expected 84v. It *might* have parts that are rated for 100v, it might not. If they are rated *at* 100v, pushing them right to that limit means that there isn't any margin, and failures can occur when right at specification limits.

Another complication based on another thread of yours: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=116861&p=1723415#p1723377
the DC-DC converter would also need to handle 100V+ on it's input, or it will fail.

Ebike92119 said:
I have a 52v battery and I’d like to get to more volts. Im thinking about getting a 36v battery. So, 52+36=88v. My controller is rated for 72v. I’m curious if the battery BMS will conflict with wiring different voltage batteries in series and do the batteries need to be the same amp hours?
 
From what I have read, you need to look at 2 different items:

1. Battery BMS - look at the fets on the battery bms and check the MAX volt rating on them

2. Bike Controller capacitor volts

if you peek that threads here, you will find buried on some builds where users have done what you are seeking,
 
Changing system voltage that much very likely requires a new controller.

And no BMS generally don't work in series, atomise the packs and build one big one.

Or do what it takes to go without a BMS.

And yes the cells best be identical in series, not just capacity but resistance, thus same model, age, ideally production run.

Sent from my moto g power (2022) using Tapatalk

 
Ebike92119 said:
I have a 52v battery and I’d like to get to more volts. Im thinking about getting a 36v battery. So, 52+36=88v. My controller is rated for 72v. I’m curious if the battery BMS will conflict with wiring different voltage batteries in series and do the batteries need to be the same amp hours?

Thank you.

You'll need to monitor each battery separately since they will discharge at different rates, unless you trust the BMSs to shut down the packs when they hit their LVC. You can't charge in bulk unless all the cells in both packs are matched, so not advised unless you are starting out with both packs and matched cells and capacities.
 
Last night I woke up to loud explosions coming from my garage, it sounded like fireworks. I went into my garage and my electric bike was on fire. Sparks were flying and the smell of burning plastic was unbearable. I managed to put the fire out with a garden hose. My neighbor called the fire department. According to the fire department electric bike fires are not uncommon. If I wasn’t home to put the fire out, it certainly woulda caught the rest of my home on fire.

Why did it catch on fire? I’m hesitant to build another bike without figuring out what went wrong. Only one battery caught fire. The other battery is still functioning, which is surprising after it had been soaked with water. I had two unit power pack batteries, one battery was 54v and the other 58v. I had these batteries wired in series making 112v. The battery that caught fire kept turning off, this also happened when the battery was not wired in series. I figured the BMS was turning the battery off. Charging the battery for a few days fixed the issue. While riding around with both batteries in series I noticed the battery that caught fire was getting noticeable hot, but the other battery had a normal temperature. After leaving the bike charging for a few days that’s when the fire started. I’m unsure why the fire started.
Your thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated.
 

Attachments

  • F7A2B653-01FB-4B4B-98A4-F710DDB8A610.jpeg
    F7A2B653-01FB-4B4B-98A4-F710DDB8A610.jpeg
    4 MB · Views: 1,573
  • F0F41645-A73F-41D0-9EE0-BFED7FF1797F.jpeg
    F0F41645-A73F-41D0-9EE0-BFED7FF1797F.jpeg
    3.1 MB · Views: 1,573
Ebike92119 said:
After leaving the bike charging for a few days that’s when the fire started. I’m unsure why the fire started.

Your thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated.

I'm speechless. :shock:

Glad you didn't burn your house down. It might be a sign to switch to a gas powered bike.
 
Almost any electrical fire is the result of one of two problems:
1) a short circuit (that is why power circuits have fuses/circuit breakers ahead of the loads).
2) a component that gets more current that it can handle and over heats

Certain lithium battery chemistries are safer than others (i.e. LiFePO4 for example) but they have lower power densities and are more expensive. However any lithium battery that actually ignites is "self oxidizing" and you can not put out the fire with water. All water can do is cool the container down.

People that understand the risks do not charge or discharge lithium batteries near their maximum rates. They also monitor the temperature of the batteries during charge and discharge cycles (either manually or electronically). They do not construct unusual power packs that might possibly exceed the capacity of individual components.

Even the experts sometimes screw up. See these news stories:
https://www.bestmag.co.uk/teslas-lithium-ion-megapack-causes-three-day-fire-during-test-australian-300mw-ess/
https://www.energy-storage.news/investigation-confirms-cause-of-fire-at-teslas-victorian-big-battery-in-australia/
 
I’m so glad that you are safe and your house didn’t burn down.

Thank you for sharing your story with others, as a warning of ever-present dangers that come with every lithium battery we own and use.

I share my opinion good heartedly, for learning’s sake. It sounds like you noticed and then chose to ignore some warning signs from your battery. The BMS turning the pack off and/or the battery getting hot ought to have prompted further investigation.

Clearly, something was out of bounds and your BMS was trying to prevent an accident. Maybe you had some weak cell groups? Maybe it was giving a high-temp cutoff? Maybe the battery has degraded with time and was now stressed while trying to keep up with your demands? A better response to this would have been to grab the screwdriver and multimeter, rather than throw it on to charge a few days and hope the BMS sorts things out.

In the future, and to anyone else reading this, the first time a battery does something unexpected should prompt a battery health check.

High-quality components and careful use can help mitigate risks, but they’ll never go away entirely. I also wouldn’t personally charge my battery, unattended, while I slept. I do charge in my house, though I try to be around and attentive should something go terribly wrong.

I’m sorry about your battery, and am glad you’re safe.
 
This wouldn't have anything to do with that charger laying on the ground under the bike would it? And the burnt off lead going to the battery that didn't catch fire?

I would add to that thought, the insulation between the individual cells, and between the cells and a mounting bracket for instance, can wear out, causing something just like this.

So can inexperienced users messing with big batteries and/or charging combinations that aren't quite kosher.....

You are lucky! I don't blame you one bit for not proceeding until you figure out what went wrong....
 
Ebike92119 said:
...The battery that caught fire kept turning off, this also happened when the battery was not wired in series. I figured the BMS was turning the battery off. Charging the battery for a few days fixed the issue. While riding around with both batteries in series I noticed the battery that caught fire was getting noticeable hot, but the other battery had a normal temperature. After leaving the bike charging for a few days that’s when the fire started.

Wow. Thanks for sharing. Glad to hear you're OK and not too much damage.

I think some of the 'why' is covered in your quote above. 'Battery kept turning off' is probably the BMS catching a low volt situation and cutting off. Charging 'for a few days' fixed it. Likely this was enough time to 'sort of' balance a bad cell group back up to some sort of reasonable voltage. 'Battery getting hot' another warning sign that something is amiss.

So overall, sounds like you either had a bad cell group(s) or the BMS wasn't effectively charging a cell group(s). This out of balance group got hot and likely lit off during an extended charging period.
 
Just to make sure you've heard of Louis Rossmann's UPP fire: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=108518

I think pictured here it looks like there is no electrical insulation between cell groups other than the heat shrink wrappers on each cell. If those adjacent cells rub or melt through the wrappers, there will be a short circuit. Maybe a small contact at first was enough to unbalance the cell groups at first (battery shutting off on you) and heat up those cells.

I will say that I only trust ebike batteries with a smart BMS, so that I can manually verify cell group voltages periodically are still balanced. If they aren't, then there's a problem.
 
I am glad you and yours and your home are safe. I have been thru a house fire (not battery- or EV-related) and lost those I cared about, so I am very glad this didn't happen to you.

There are a few possible causes, but the most likely is the battery itself, internally, since you said it was heating up during charge (which should not happen in a correctly-functioning battery, assuming typical low-current charge rates--it might be warmer than when just sitting there doing nothing, but it should never get "hot".) that also kept turning off. The specific reasons for it to be heating or turning off might be the reason for the fire, or just indirectly have lead to it.

There are other possible contributors: A battery whose BMS is not designed for a voltage higher than the battery charges to may not survive being seriesed with another battery. At the moment when the BMS tries to protect the cells inside against overcharge or overdischarge, the voltage across the FETs (charge and/or discharge) becomes higher than they can handle, and they can fail, often shorted "on", so that the BMS can no longer protect the cells inside against overcharge or overdischarge, even when it is no longer in series with the other battery.

If that happened, then the cells can overcharge, which can cause them to heat up. If they heat enough, they can internally fail and self-discharge very rapidly, which generates enough heat ot cause adjacent cells to fail, which causes a chain reaction that can lead to a fire.

If the discharge port was damaged from overvoltage, and the pack was imbalanced enough, the BMS would not have been able to turn it off (and shut the system down) in the event of cell-group-level LVC, and such a cell group could have been driven negative in voltage and been damaged by that, and failed on a subsequent recharge. (the BMS charge port would *also* have to be unable to shut off for this to happen, because otherwise it would have prevented charge in the first place, if the cell was below it's safety cutoff, unless it is so poorly designed it doesn't have one or can't respond correctly to a voltage at or less than 0V).


The controller doesn't appear to be damaged enough for this (though it may be damaged enough to not work and possibly not be testable for this failure), but another thing that could contribute is that the FETs and capacitors (and LVPS input components) in it also can only handle a certain amount of voltage. If they are not designed for the voltage of the seriesed packs, or the full charger voltage (if still connected to the pack during charge), they can fail, again often shorted (for both caps and FETs), and generate heat, which can lead to a fire if left in that condition, especially if the BMS has already failed from overvoltage so that it can't turn off it's output



Another possible contributor (which may or may not apply to your event) to battery failures is non-balancing BMSs, which many battery sellers use in their cheaper packs, especially in combination with the cheap and non-matched cells they also will typically use in them. The cells grow in imbalance, which the BMS cannot correct as it doesn't have the hardware. The pack capacity will appear to drop, and it won't fully charge, growing worse every usage cycle. It can reach a point where the cells in some groups are nearly empty and others are nearly full, and if the BMS has any form of problem that prevents it from shutting off charge or discharge in the event of cell-level HVC or LVC, cells can be dramatically overcharged or overdischarged (even to the point of going negative in voltage, which is even worse for them than other conditions), and that can lead to a fire.



Cells can also just fail internally, from manufacturing defects. This shouldn't happen (at least, very very rarely) from properly QC'd cells being used well within their specifications, but many cheap packs are probably made from cells that didn't pass QC in some way, and many (perhaps most) packs regardless of price are setup to use their cells right to the edge of their capabilities (which means that even with perfect cells to start with, as they age they'll become incapable of handling the usage they're put to, and be stressed more and more, with greater risk of failure).

We know from troubleshooting disassembly inspections in various threads that some cheap packs are made from recycled garbage cells from discarded packs from assorted sources. Some places may sort those and use only verified good ones, but QC takes time and money, so cheap packs probably don't do that, and we've seen packs that show signs that cells get used regardless of condition (even when obviously physically damaged before or during assembly).





Ebike92119 said:
Last night I woke up to loud explosions coming from my garage, it sounded like fireworks. I went into my garage and my electric bike was on fire. Sparks were flying and the smell of burning plastic was unbearable. I managed to put the fire out with a garden hose. My neighbor called the fire department. According to the fire department electric bike fires are not uncommon. If I wasn’t home to put the fire out, it certainly woulda caught the rest of my home on fire.

Why did it catch on fire? I’m hesitant to build another bike without figuring out what went wrong. Only one battery caught fire. The other battery is still functioning, which is surprising after it had been soaked with water. I had two unit power pack batteries, one battery was 54v and the other 58v. I had these batteries wired in series making 112v. The battery that caught fire kept turning off, this also happened when the battery was not wired in series. I figured the BMS was turning the battery off. Charging the battery for a few days fixed the issue. While riding around with both batteries in series I noticed the battery that caught fire was getting noticeable hot, but the other battery had a normal temperature. After leaving the bike charging for a few days that’s when the fire started. I’m unsure why the fire started.
Your thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated.
 
Scary stuff :shock:
Thank goodness it was caught in time.
Is it possible two different battery pack voltages might be a contributor ?
One pack is 54V the other 58V ?

https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgyd3n/new-york-has-an-e-bike-fire-problem-but-not-a-solution
 
Without a diode between the two packs the 58 volt pack would rush in to the 54 volt pack as fast as it could
So UPP battery ?
What controller ?
What amps were you running ?
What motor ?
 
The OP needs to give more detail as others have referred to.
Were the batteries being charged ?
If so how ? In parllel , in series or individually ?
 
I’m glad you are ok and that you still have shelter.

My 2 big takeaways from your story are, don’t use differing voltages in series and not to leave your bike charging for a few days.

Hopefully, other fires will be prevented from you sharing your story.
 
Ebike92119 said:
I had two unit power pack batteries, one battery was 54v and the other 58v. I had these batteries wired in series making 112v. The battery that caught fire kept turning off, this also happened when the battery was not wired in series. I figured the BMS was turning the battery off. Charging the battery for a few days fixed the issue.
Here is a very common scenario:

1) The battery gets out of balance for one of a dozen reasons (poor cell matching, construction, poor BMS design etc)
2) One cell gets significantly higher than the rest.
3) During a charge, the cell regularly gets charged to 4.5 volts or so and the BMS does not notice.
4) Dendrites form inside that cell.
5) One day a dendrite gets long enough to bridge both electrodes. That causes a short and it heats up that area of the cell. The electrolyte decomposes and begins providing oxygen. Oxidation of the lithium metal, and then the electrodes, starts.

After that the thermal runaway has begun and cannot be stopped.

The fact that it kept cutting out suggests that that is the problem. The BMS limits may have been set "generously" (i.e. 4.5 volts) or they may simply not be very accurate. So it charges to 4.5 and cuts out, 4.5 and cuts out, finally the balancer works and now you are only charging it to 4.4 volts - which is still enough to, over time, plate out lithium and cause dendrite formation.
 
slaphappygamer said:
My 2 big takeaways from your story are, don’t use differing voltages in series
<snip>

Different voltages in series don't cause a problem (not this kind, anyway).

Different voltages in *parallel* can, assuming no diode-like device to prevent the lower from dragging down the higher (with various possible problems depending on circumstances).
 
When you have two packs in series, the voltage is not the issue. It's whether the BMS on either pack can hold off the combined voltages of both batteries, if it shuts off. YOu have 112V at peak charge, and I doubt the transistors in a a 13S BMS can hold off more than 100V.

If you put packs in series, you have to look at your BMS, get the MOSFET part numbers and look them up. The MOSFET's on this Annpower 13BMS are Infineon BSC030N08N only rated for 80V . For sure, they would eventually blow at 112V. and maybe fail short circuited. I believe Amberwolf describes this scenario. Now I would have no protection during charging or discharge.

P9121101.JPG

I think you had a low voltage cell group in the burned battery that should have been isolated, but a short circuited BMS allowed them to get recharged and they became heaters.
 
docw009 said:
When you have two packs in series, the voltage is not the issue. It's whether the BMS on either pack can hold off the combined voltages of both batteries, if it shuts off. YOu have 112V at peak charge, and I doubt the transistors in a a 13S BMS can hold off more than 100V.

If you put packs in series, you have to look at your BMS, get the MOSFET part numbers and look them up. The MOSFET's on this Annpower 13BMS are Infineon BSC030N08N only rated for 80V . For sure, they would eventually blow at 112V. and maybe fail short circuited. I believe Amberwolf describes this scenario. Now I would have no protection during charging or discharge.

I think you had a low voltage cell group in the burned battery that should have been isolated, but a short circuited BMS allowed them to get recharged and they became heaters.

So ... regarding the BMS and trying to understand your your theory.
Were the two battery packs set up with in such a way to use only one BMS which then sees full pack voltage ?
Or was there two BMS's one for each battery pack which then sees individual pack voltage ?

Either way ... an individual cell shorting out causing a runaway fire episode makes sense.
 
PaPaSteve said:
Or was there two BMS's one for each battery pack which then sees individual pack voltage ?
I was just going to say, the high voltage is a rare variable to think about, but each pack should have had it's own BMS and neither should have seen the full series voltage. Hopefully both chargers had floating/isolated DC output voltage...
 
Too bad OP did not engage with the knowledgeable members here more

educate themselves further

before pulling the trigger on dangerous ideas.
 
john61ct said:
Too bad OP did not engage with the knowledgeable members here more

educate themselves further

before pulling the trigger on dangerous ideas.

Who would have thought that poor charging practices would be far more dangerous than the idea itself. Even if you ignore all of the warning signs, simply following the single cardinal rule of not charging unattended would avoid most disasters. :shock:
 
Back
Top