Narrowed down my decision; buying eBike

[WolfStrong]

Been researching on purchasing an ebike for about 6 months now, and really have narrowed it down to a few options, though if anyone has any suggestions, feel free to put in your $0.02. What I am essentially looking for is something good enough to replace my car. Going back to school and working a low paying job doesn't give me much money to work with. The good news is being in sunny SoCal, living only about a mile away from the Sprinter (which runs from my work, to home, to school), and only about 5 miles away from work, I seriously see little to no use for a car right now.

What I'm looking for as far as features are disc brakes, enough power to move me up hills (nothing too steep, though the hills are long, and I weigh 300lb), fenders, comfort, range, front/rear lights driven by the battery or dyno, and reliability. The reliability and range are perhaps the most important things for me as I would need to count on this bike day in and and day out. I am very competent mechanically, so as long as a controller doesn't fail, battery catch on fire, spokes/fork snap or something catastrophic like that, I should be fine. Range is also a big concern, as I still would want to get places when need be, and being a big dude, needing the capability to carry me the distance is important. Generall, if I could get a realistic range of 35+ miles with low assist + hills, I would be happy (more the better!). This left me with 3 top picks:

The Pedego City Commuter, Stromer ST1 Platinum (with City Package), and the Haibike Xduro Trekking RX.

I like the Pedego for the price, reputation, and support with a local Pedego dealer. It seems like it would get the kind of range I demand if I do the 36v15ah or 48v10ah battery, and after a few test rides, seems like it has the range. Even though it is a cadence pedelec, it is smooth and seems to be easier to get off the line than the torque based ones. What I do not like about it though is the grip shifter (can this be changed?) as they seem to break all the time, the adjustable stem seems like it would be an annoyance, and the welded rear rack seems like it would be harder to get panniers for, mechanical disc brakes vs hydraulics on the others, and I would be worried about getting water in the battery compartment if I took the battery out to charge at work/school.

The next one is the Stromer which I like due to its use of really high quality components (Magura, Schwalbe, ect), regen braking, and seemingly great reviews. Really the only bad thing I can think about on this bike is that you sit more forward whereas you can sit more upright on the Pedego?

The Haibike is the last option. Unfortunately being in the US, it looks like we will only get the RX version with Tektro brakes instead of Magura, but still, it seems like a nice package with the Bosch drive. I did ride a few other Currie bikes, and while I did really like the iZip Peak and Dash, I could not stand the electronics on the Peak+. The Bosch system is mostly what interests me in this bike, and from everything I've read, it seems like it, and the Stromer are two favorites. I would have added Kalkhoff to the mix, but there is no dealer around my area for me to even look at them, much less buy and work on one.

Probably going to make my mind up here in a few weeks, just having a really hard time picking between them. I know they are all great bikes with great reviews, so there really is no bad choice. Hard one...

 

[Chalo]

What I'm looking for as far as features are disc brakes,

I think you mean good brakes. Disc brakes are not equal to good brakes, though some of them are good. Some rim brakes are good too. Rim brakes are a LOT cheaper to upgrade from "fair" to "good". I've been heavier than you since 2001, and I've been a working cycle mechanic starting in 1992. Please trust me when I tell you that disc brakes are no assurance of strong braking, nor are rim brakes ineffective. Also keep in mind that disc brake compatible wheels are weaker than rim brake only wheels, which matters to heavyweights like us.

fenders,

Fenders can be added to almost anything. Fenders are not a criterion to choose by, because they are such an easy retrofit.

Generall, if I could get a realistic range of 35+ miles with low assist + hills, I would be happy (more the better!). This left me with 3 top picks:

The Pedego City Commuter, Stromer ST1 Platinum (with City Package), and the Haibike Xduro Trekking RX.

That's a lot of battery for a big boy, and I reeeally doubt any of your candidates will do it in the world that exists outside of their spec sheets.

 

[mlt34]

I am very competent mechanically

So why not build your own. Trying to find a retail ebike with a 35+ mile range is tough. Some will claim up to 40 miles, but in the real world you'll only get 20 miles unless you're doing some serious pedaling.

Converting your own bike to electric means you can start by choosing any bike you want, so you know it fits you best, and then you can save more than half the cost of a retail ebike, so you can put a lot of that money back into bigger (or multiple) batteries.

Just for example, my bike uses nearly identical parts to the 48V pedego commuter, and it cost me about $700 to build instead of paying $2400 for the pedego...

 

[WolfStrong]

Well the main thing that turned me off from building one, was that it seemed like it wasn't going to be much cheaper than the Pedego. I am considering it though as well, though what has me turned off on the idea is that I do not want to have to worry about Lipo's catching on fire, balancing, and all that jazz. A good quality battery seems to cost around $700-1200. Then, factor in the kits, which usually cost $500-1000 (depending), I am already at $1600-2000, and I don't even have a bike to put it on yet. Put in another $500-700, and I am basically right there at what the Pedego costs after racks, lights, and fenders are installed. I'm getting those prices just based on shipping costs from places like BMS/eBike.ca, and a few LBS that sell conversion kits from Bafang/Mac/Bionx.

I mean if anyone has any suggestions as far as getting a quality battery + kit for cheaper shipped to SoCal, I am all ears. That's just been my experience so far, and why I didn't mention it, and went straight for something like the Pedego.

Oh, and I know that rim brakes can perform just as well, if not better than discs(and vise versa), which is why I am more or less indifferent on the discs with the Pedego as they aren't any better than my road bike with U-brakes (or the very crappy brakes on my beach cruiser). I will say that after riding a few bikes with good hydraulics, my God....what a difference.

That's why I posted here though, those are the 3 best options I was able to come up with so far. Seriously, if there is an option that is significantly cheaper that can get me going, than please, let me know!

 

[mlt34]

you are woefully misinformed about prices. Like I said, my bike is basically the exact same thing as a pedego commuter and cost a quarter of the price to build.

For example, combine this battery and this kit and you have a 1000 watt ebike for about $550, bike not included.
good quality battery: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-48v-10ah-LiFePO4-Battery-3A-Charger-BMS-For-Ebike-Kits-Powerful-Sea-8-Weeks-/141299664728#shpCntId
good quality kit: http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W26-Front-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Cycling-Hub-Conversion-/291053985553?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c42b5f11

Use a bike you already have and you've got your own pedego for $550. Buy a decent bike and you're still under $900.

Or upgrade to a larger 20AH battery like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-48v-20ah-LiFePO4-Battery-5A-Charger-BMS-For-Ebike-Powerful-Sea-8-Weeks-Gift-/141296286054

you'll get close to your 35 mile range like that, and your entire cost of all the components will still be less than $800.

I just don't understand why anyone would buy a retail ebike, unless they simply don't know how to turn a wrench...

 

[electr0n]

+1 for building your own. It's very straight forward and easy to do. You'll save a lot of money over buying an a turnkey bike and you'll have a lot more fun doing it too. You can easily get kits for under $500 and you can get a big lipo battery and a charger for $500 to $600 shipped that will give you your desired range. Lipo's are not that complicated or dangerous as long as you don't over charge, over discharge or puncture them. I've found that balancing them is rarely necessary.

If you're dead set against lipo you can get a big bulky ping battery or something similar for around the same price as the lipo. You can find a cheap used bike to throw the kit on if you want. I think it's better to start off with a cheap used bike or something you already own so you can see what you like then upgrade later.

I've been using lipo for over 3 years and commuting for 2+ of those years. I'm using a cheap department store bike I bought used with rim brakes and they are fine by me, specially with regen. I upgraded the suspension fork much later on. I have a battery capable of giving the range you mentioned.

 

[mlt34]

While I applaud your DIY enthusiasm, I wouldn't be so quick to recommend lipo.

I've found that balancing them is rarely necessary.

A statement like that to a beginner is just asking for a house fire or worse…

The fact that you've had great performance with lipos doesn't mean that any beginner should just pick up a set and start riding off into the sunset. Your experience is invaluable and too many people have had seriously bad experiences when they didn't know what they were getting into with lipos. Beginners should almost always start with LiFePO4 or NMC until they have a bit more experience and are ready to wade into the lipo pool, having first researched it carefully.

 

[wesnewell]

mlt34, the kit you linked to has a price of $999 on it. An obvious typo when entering the item, but everything being automatic, I'd bet that's what you'd end up paying for it. Here's a better example.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W-26-Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Cycling-Hub-Conversion-/231132763662
Or pick from here.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/26-Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Hub-Kit-Front-Rear-Wheel-Ebike36-48V250-500-800-1000W-/291119531800
it needs at least a 30A capable 48v lifepo4 battery though to meet the 30A controller draw requirement.

 

[Supertux1]

An ebike is always a compromise between speed, range, handling and price.
Money will always make the compromises less, to the point where a moped or motorcycle is a better option.

What I'm looking for as far as features are disc brakes, enough power to move me up hills (nothing too steep, though the hills are long, and I weigh 300lb), fenders, comfort, range, front/rear lights driven by the battery or dyno, and reliability. The reliability and range are perhaps the most important things for me as I would need to count on this bike day in and and day out.

The bike in my signature is my idea of the ultimate commuter and I use it for a 20 mile commute every day. It has BB7 brakes, MAC 10T torque geared hub motor for hills, fenders for rain/puddles, a nice seat and suspension seat post for comfort, front and rear light driven by dynamo, and a good wheel system for reliability. Range is about 45 miles @ 15-20mph with average pedaling from starts. (500W) Top speed is about 28mph on a fresh charge, starts to overheat (80 degrees) after about 30 minutes @ 25-30A draw, (1500W)

Going back to school and working a low paying job doesn't give me much money to work with.

You could probably build your own for close to $2000

I suggest you go with a similar Motor/Battery/Controller/CAv3 kit package from cell_man, E3ev: http://www.emissions-free.com/store/ You could go for a Mac 12T for your weight and hills if speed isn't a requirement. That'll cost about
$1500 USD shipped and is a good price for everything that makes it go. You could spend far more making part matching and connection
mistakes. Here's an example build from that website for torque and range:

- Battery Type 50V 16.5Ah Triangle, 5A Charger
- Max Speed ~32km/h (20mph)
- Controller Type 25A 6 Fet (36-52V, IRFB3077)
- Front/Rear Motor Rear
- Wheel Type 26" Alex DM24 Disc
- Spoke Type Sapim Upgrade (Black)
- Throttle Type Half Twist
- Ebrakes HWBS Sensor (1pc)
- Disc Spacer 1pc 2.5mm Disc Spacer
- Torque Arm Rear Rev4 (1pc)
- Freewheel 7sp DNP (11T)
- Display V3 CA-DPS

Put it in the cheapest bike you can find that has disc brake mounts on the frame. Number of gears doesn't matter, you'll never really use them much and most hub motors have spacing issues with 9 and 10 speed cassettes. Go with a 21 or 24 speed and avoid 27 and 30 speeds, bigger chains on the lower end bikes are a plus too. Expect to only have about 5 useable gears. I got my bike from bikesdirect.com, still $320 shipped. (The forks / shifters / derailers are crappy but functional.)

There's going to be clearance issues with disc brakes and any motor, so search here for solutions to that. It's probably worth it to immediately upgrade with BB7 brakes and larger rotors (180/200mm) for the front and rear -- it's safer for your weight and will help with clearance issues on the rear. http://www.amazon.com/SRAM-Avid-Front-Brake-180mm/dp/B00DPVDE68/ref=sr_1_9_m

You can then add things as you go, lights, racks, a nice seat, typical bike commuter stuff.

 

[wesnewell]

The first bike I converted cost under $500 total. $100 new bike. $229 for the 48V 500W conversion kit. $0 for 4 old ups batteries, which was replaced about a week later with lipo. My current bike was under $800. See sigline. Shop wisely. Buy from within your country where possible. You don't have to spend more than $1000 to get a reliable ebike. I've got close to 12K miles on mine now after a little over 3 years.

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[cal3thousand]

It could be also cheaper to order a kitted bike from local builder than a production bike.

But production bikes have their place. I actually like Currie bikes quite a bit due to the ease and cleanliness of the connections. But you will pay a premium for a product that might be just what you wanted.

On the other hand, a kit ebike takes more pride, careful selection, and patience. In return, you get a lower cost, the option to reuse and repurpose goods, and MUCH more customization. Also, bear in mind that production ebikes sometimes use proprietary hardware, locking you into their costs for repair and maintenance.

 

[slacker]

you mentioned pedego and good reputation in the same sentence ?

 

[mvly]

kLet's first be clear. 48V10Ah or 36V15Ah will not give you 35miles+ with little assistance and hills. If you are going less than 15mph and moderate assist, then yes maybe. But after a6months of riding, I can assure you that will not be the case if you do 35miles per day everyday for 6 months.

I would say you need 48V15Ah at least to be comfortable to do 35miles+ with low assistance.

That being said, most if not all the production Ebikes advertise 35mile+ range. But you cannot trust them! If they advertise 80+miles then sure maybe you can get 35+miles with low assist and hills.

But back to the point, I say just build your own. It siunds like you can handle yourself around a broken bike well enough. At this point the only way I would recommend getting a production ebike given your skill level would be you are too lazy and refuse to build one yourself. If so, fair enough, go for the production ebike. Otherwise get off your lazy ass and build one!

 

[WolfStrong]

you mentioned pedego and good reputation in the same sentence ?

Around here they carry a pretty good name among customers. The local bike shops are all independent and tend not to like them because they are exclusive.

The names that people tend to have the highest regard towards is this place called San Deigo Electric bike, and a guy called "Turbo bob". Sdrlectric is very into kits and DIY, and also sell their own ebike called the ELECycle that looks like a good deal too at $1500.

This thread is exactly what I needed though; you guys are kind of refueling my DIY ideas.

 

[PRW]

one bike you didn't mention as a possibility is the BH Emotion range - I think that they are great bikes, particularly on 48v. http://iselectricbikecenter.com/easy-motion

 

[DAND214]

If you wanna build your own ebike, you ned to consider the compatability of the kits.
Not many suppliers offer a matched set, Or a kit that is already connector MATCHED. If you buy from Paul EM3ev it is a plug and play setup. All connecors are pre MATCHED for you,. http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=45&product_id=186
The kit is great and the battery is one of the best from one of the best.

Dan

 

[mvly]

you mentioned pedego and good reputation in the same sentence ?

Around here they carry a pretty good name among customers. The local bike shops are all independent and tend not to like them because they are exclusive.

The names that people tend to have the highest regard towards is this place called San Deigo Electric bike, and a guy called "Turbo bob". Sdrlectric is very into kits and DIY, and also sell their own ebike called the ELECycle that looks like a good deal too at $1500.

This thread is exactly what I needed though; you guys are kind of refueling my DIY ideas.

Turbo bob! Hahah funny name. Never met the guy. But I have heard of him. Suppose to be the go to guy in terms of Ebikes in San Diego. Too bad he have never seen my bike. Wonder what he would say...

SD electric is a fine place to start. And $1500 is not a bad start. Go for it! Quit asking and starting riding!

 

[mlt34]

Turbo bob is a friend of mine. Cool guy. One of the biggest ebike disciples out there.

 

[WolfStrong]

One thing that has been bothering me a lot in my research, is charging honestly. Right now, I am under the impression that there are 2 ways to do it: buy the battery preassembled with a BMS already attached, that way you have 4 leads; 2 for charging, 2 for output. This means that you could essentially just unplug it from the bike, and plug it right into a wall without having to mess with anything. Then, the other way seems to be people buying batteries off of a place like Hobbyking, buying a balancer or something, unplugging the batteries from the output, connect all batteries individually to the balancer, and also connect all of them to a charging board. Then repeat after you want to go back the other way.

The reason I ask is that obviously it would be nice to save my money and buy some HK batteries, but I do NOT want to go through all that every time I plug them in. I want something I can just unplug from the bike, and plug right into a wall to charge. I even planned on putting the charger right in the bag for convenience. This convenience alone would make it worth paying double the price for a Ping or All-cell, but if I could save money the other way, then awesome...but how would I set that up? I can't seem to find info on that anywhere on how to do that.

 

[mlt34]

One thing that has been bothering me a lot in my research, is charging honestly. Right now, I am under the impression that there are 2 ways to do it: buy the battery preassembled with a BMS already attached, that way you have 4 leads; 2 for charging, 2 for output. This means that you could essentially just unplug it from the bike, and plug it right into a wall without having to mess with anything. Then, the other way seems to be people buying batteries off of a place like Hobbyking, buying a balancer or something, unplugging the batteries from the output, connect all batteries individually to the balancer, and also connect all of them to a charging board. Then repeat after you want to go back the other way.

The reason I ask is that obviously it would be nice to save my money and buy some HK batteries, but I do NOT want to go through all that every time I plug them in. I want something I can just unplug from the bike, and plug right into a wall to charge. I even planned on putting the charger right in the bag for convenience. This convenience alone would make it worth paying double the price for a Ping or All-cell, but if I could save money the other way, then awesome...but how would I set that up? I can't seem to find info on that anywhere on how to do that.

The problem is that you don't have a complete understanding of the different types of batteries. These "batteries" that you refer to aren't the same thing. The first group, which you talk about having two charging and two discharging leads, are "ebike-specific lithium batteries", for lack of a better term. These are usually LiFePO4 or LiNiMnCo. The point is, they are designed to be easy to use with ebikes. They come with a charger and you simply plug it in to charge, just like a phone or laptop. They also come with a BMS pre-installed so you never have to worry about balancing. It's just a magic, simple battery.

These second type of batteries that you talk about, the ones coming from HobbyKing are "RC LiPo" batteries. These are powerful little explosives that can also be used to power things like RC cars and airplanes, and less frequently, electric bikes. They work just fine for ebikes, however you have to know exactly what you are doing with how to charge them, otherwise you will burn your house down and kill your family. It's happened. Many times.

So basically, RC LiPo batteries are NOT for beginners. You want a battery that comes with a BMS and a charger, all together. It's that simple.

 

[electr0n]

Then, the other way seems to be people buying batteries off of a place like Hobbyking, buying a balancer or something, unplugging the batteries from the output, connect all batteries individually to the balancer, and also connect all of them to a charging board. Then repeat after you want to go back the other way.

The reason I ask is that obviously it would be nice to save my money and buy some HK batteries, but I do NOT want to go through all that every time I plug them in. I want something I can just unplug from the bike, and plug right into a wall to charge. I even planned on putting the charger right in the bag for convenience. This convenience alone would make it worth paying double the price for a Ping or All-cell, but if I could save money the other way, then awesome...but how would I set that up? I can't seem to find info on that anywhere on how to do that.

You could setup up the RC lipo to be almost plug and play if you want. For example, if you wanted to run 44.4v with 20 amp hours, that's 8 bricks 5 amp hours each. You could connect 4 bricks in parallel to make a 20 amp hour pack and do that twice. Then connect the two 20 amp hour packs in series for 44.4v 20 amp hours. This would be your permanent battery configuration. No breaking connections.

Then just use an intelligent balance charger capable of charging 12s or more and charge them directly. With this type of setup you could even balance charge by making only two additional connections from each 20 amp hour pack to the 12s balance charger, but in my experience this is unnecessary most of the time. The cells tend to stay mostly balanced.

If you store your batteries and charge in a safe place the risk of fire causing big damage is greatly reduced, even further so if you're using an intelligent charger which will not charge the batteries if the voltages are out of range, even without the balance taps connected.

The fires I've seen with lipo were using non intelligent bulk chargers, not dedicated balance chargers intended for these batteries. Also fires can happen with any battery chemistry.

 

[mvly]

forget the hobby king route. They are scammers so I would stay away from them.

But most people here are right in not recommending Lipo for some one like you. Lipo require a lot of care and IMO, is a headache to manage no matter what you do. Major inconvenience if you ask me. If you want a low maintenance plug and play system, go with something with BMS and be done with. In fact, if you are not so concern about price, get All-Cell and call it a day. If you are willing to work a bit to save a bit of cash, I recommend BMS with Nissan Leaf batteries if are building something that can handle the size of the Nissan Leaf Batteries.

3 packs will get your 12s if you hack it up to turn it from 2s2p to 4s1p and get a 12s Li-on BMS and a 12s charger and you are set. 3 packs weighs around 20lbs with wiring and all so it's totally doable. After a few hours of fussing around with the wiring, it should be pretty solid pack. Total cost should be around $400-$450 and you have a safe, low cost, reliable, simple plug and play solution once you set it up properly. Capacity will be around 25Ah so 44.4V25Ah pack is pretty decent for $400-$450. The All-cell equivalent can easily cost twice as much.

 

[wineboyrider]

I agree with MVLY first battery for anyone with little or no knowledge about RC lipo should be a battery pack that is plug and play. If however down the road you want to give it a try it can easily be added to your battery arsenal. That's how I did it, but others with more electronics background etc. could easily go RC no problem... Just my 2 cents.

 

[wesnewell]

One thing that has been bothering me a lot in my research, is charging honestly. Right now, I am under the impression that there are 2 ways to do it: buy the battery preassembled with a BMS already attached, that way you have 4 leads; 2 for charging, 2 for output. This means that you could essentially just unplug it from the bike, and plug it right into a wall without having to mess with anything. Then, the other way seems to be people buying batteries off of a place like Hobbyking, buying a balancer or something, unplugging the batteries from the output, connect all batteries individually to the balancer, and also connect all of them to a charging board. Then repeat after you want to go back the other way.

There's a lot more ways to charge than just 2, regardless of the battery chemistry. If fact the battery chemstry has nothing to do with the way you charge your pack. If you want the simplest charging method, then your battery pack needs a bms. Pretty much all lithium packs are sold with one, except rc lipo. With rc lipo you will have to add your own if you want to charge that way. Many people have gone that way with rc lipo since bms's have become available for them. Most common ways to charge a battery pack;
1 bulk charge without any balancing. This can be dangerous with any chemstry.
2 bulk charge witrh a bms. Reasonably safe with all chenstries.
3 bulk charge using external balancers. Reasonably safe with all chenstries.
4 charge using a balance charger. Reasonably safe with all chenstries. Requires hooking up balance leads to charge.
Most chargers are not designed to be mounted on the buke and will fail due to the frorces subjected to them while riding. Care must be taken to eliminate those forces.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion
http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/lipo.html

 

[cal3thousand]

I agree with MVLY first battery for anyone with little or no knowledge about RC lipo should be a battery pack that is plug and play. If however down the road you want to give it a try it can easily be added to your battery arsenal. That's how I did it, but others with more electronics background etc. could easily go RC no problem... Just my 2 cents.

That's how I began my noob journey years ago. I bought a 48V pack from Golden Motor and it made life easy. After I was ready to handle more, I just used it as an add-on pack until I eventually sold it.