New Bafang Crank-Drives

teslanv said:
Interesting that the TNA Website also lists in their index that the Max Amps on the BBS02 is only 15. - Perhaps this is the 500W Version of the drive, not the 750W, which is rated for 25A.

I also suspect this. What's interesting is that it is showing a similar top speed to the 750W verison. So if you're cheap and want a lower rated current output battery, you might be able to achieve the same top speed with both the 500W and 750W versions -- of course with increased pedalling.
 
m4s73r said:
Looks like another version of the Bafang is coming from a company called Greentrans

http://www.bike-eu.com/Sales-Trends/Product-trends/2014/2/GreenTrans-Presents-Mid-Motor-Power-Kit-1471962W/

It doesn't look like this can be retrofitted on to a "standard" frame. In fact, the image on their website shows it built in to special frame:

http://greentrans-eu.com/news_20140213.html
 
I agree that in the pic it LOOKS like its part of the bike. however its being called a "kit". Now in most parts of the world, a kit is something you DIY. I guess well see at the show
 
jateureka said:
I stumbled across product news of this switch that attaches to shift cable outer to detect inner cable movement and cut the throttle based on the shift.

More info on that gear sensor here
http://gearsensor.com/

Good to get some more information on this device. Interesting that they are relying on activating existing brake switch inputs, both Hall and straight switching to kill the throttle while shifting.

This works OK but after quite a bit of riding using a "hack" version of the theme, I have become increasingly less tolerant of the inherent delay in throttle recovery associated with brake switches. The delay is acceptable for general commuting, but with more spirited riding, the delay in throttle after shifting gear is simply too long.

So decided to rethink the concept and come up with a delay fee gearshift throttle kill hack.

As most are now aware, the throttle arrangement on BBS drives has the characteristic of killing the PAS as soon as throttle is applied. It then has quite a wide dead band before the thumb throttle starts to react.

The PAS kill is close to instantaneous when the throttle is applied and close to instantaneous recovery of PAS when the throttle is released. Just the conditions we are looking for when changing gears. Now with a bit of practice, you can use this throttle deadband as an area where you can safely change gears in. I personally suspect this deadband has been specifically engineered into the drive by the Bafang Engineers.

So with the above in mind, the solution for the perfect shifting system is to mimic this throttle action when change gears.

I use a button throttle rather then the standard thumb throttle and came up with the following simple circuit to kill just the PAS when shifting gears.

This arrangement sends a 1.5V signal to the controller when the gear selector is activated which in turn places the throttle in it's dead band / no PAS range. However, this arrangement has no effect on the button throttle which is OK, but not ideal.

button throttle2.jpg

This next schematic use both the normally open and normally closed contacts of the Micro switch and is designed to kill both PAS and the button throttle when the gear selector is activated. Basically the micro switch now switches between two voltage ranges.

button throttle3.jpg

This last schematic is similar to the above schematic but this time is designed to use the original thumb throttle.

button throttle4.jpg

Making the loom was quite straightforward with the voltage divider resistors just hidden under the heat shrink.

push button.jpg

The Mirco switch is mounted onto a flat plate with high strengh double sidded tape and the plate then screwed to the shifter mechanisum. Yo can see in the pictures how the micros sits in both at rest and gears activated.

microswitch activated.jpg

microswitch parked1.jpg

And the results.

Finally gear shifting is smooth and delay free. Only negative is that you can beat the derailleur shift with the drive reactivating if you shift too fast. However, it only takes a few shifts to figure out how fast you can shift and keep it smooth.
 
Cool hack. Seems like this would be easy to fix via programming. Im surprised that the programing tool hasn't been released/created to deal with these little things that bafang overlooked. Unless the motor controller is proprietary. (somehow i doubt this).
 
I've heard they are working on a torque-sensor model, but even with the current speed sensors, they have two-sets of magnets in the BB to tell the computer which way the BB is spinning and how fast...they could easily and cheaply triple the magnets and re-program the computer to work with more input signals. Either way, thanks for posting this...
 
can someone please let me know what the distance between the bb and the motor. I need to find out what the max out side dia for the bb shell can be.

thanks for your effort.
mark
 

Attachments

  • bafang.PNG
    bafang.PNG
    105.9 KB · Views: 3,151
Performed some more road tests today.

Here is what I am coming up with on my Unit.

Battery Starting Voltage was at 48.6V and eventually drained it down towards 46.5V throughout testing. (HK LiPo 12S10Ah)

With 9 levels of PAS I get the following matrix of assist Amperage (Maximum amps going up a 10% grade in 3-5th gear):

PAS 1/9: 5.11A
PAS 2/9: 5.11A (No Difference from 1/9)
PAS 3/9: 9.3A (This is the PAS level I usually ride with)
PAS 4/9: 16.66A
PAS 5/9: 25.22A
PAS 7/9: 25.28A
PAS 8/9: 25.28A
PAS 9/9: 25.28A (No appreciable difference between levels 5-9 on the high end of the Current demands.)

For Speed & Crank RPM's on flat road, Wide Open Throttle (25A), I get the following results:

Gear 1 (48T-32T): 13.9 MPH & 119.8 RPM
Gear 2 (48T-26T): 16.7 MPH & 116.9 RPM
Gear 3 (48T-21T): 20.4 MPH & 115.4 RPM
Gear 4 (48T-18T): 23.0 MPH & 111.5 RPM
Gear 5 (48T-16T): 25.3 MPH & 109 RPM
Gear 6 (48T-14T): 26.5 MPH & 99.9 RPM
Gear 7 (48T-12T): 30 MPH & 97 RPM
Gear 8 (48T-11T): 32.7 MPH & 97 MPH (Note Gear 8 was inferred, since I am limited to 31 MPH by software. - I just matched the RPM from Gear 7)

So with my gearing I would say that if my Motor were NOT limited by software, I would have a maximum Speed in high gear of 32.7 MPH on the flat.
 
PAS 1/9: 5.11A
PAS 2/9: 5.11A (No Difference from 1/9)
PAS 3/9: 9.3A (This is the PAS level I usually ride with)
PAS 4/9: 16.66A
PAS 5/9: 25.22A
PAS 7/9: 25.28A
PAS 8/9: 25.28A
PAS 9/9: 25.28A (No appreciable difference between levels 5-9 on the high end of the Current demands.)

That's interesting. I get no where near 25A when using PAS only. I get a max of 15A. From PAS 5 to PAS 9 the power output is quite similar however the max speed increases incrementally from 5 to 9

Full throttle override takes me to a max 25A on settings 5 to 9 however again the speed limit increases incrementally so the Amps vary depending on the speed and load.

I find That PAS setting 5 gives me 35kph to 40kph on reasonably flat road then I just hit the boost button (full throttle) holds speed as I hit inclines. Also I use the boost button to overtake or to boost my cruise speed up an extra 5kph. I like this setup and am quite satisfied not having 100% throttle and speed override in all assist settings.
 
Kepler said:
PAS 1/9: 5.11A
PAS 2/9: 5.11A (No Difference from 1/9)
PAS 3/9: 9.3A (This is the PAS level I usually ride with)
PAS 4/9: 16.66A
PAS 5/9: 25.22A
PAS 7/9: 25.28A
PAS 8/9: 25.28A
PAS 9/9: 25.28A (No appreciable difference between levels 5-9 on the high end of the Current demands.)

That's interesting. I get no where near 25A when using PAS only. I get a max of 15A. From PAS 5 to PAS 9 the power output is quite similar however the max speed increases incrementally from 5 to 9

Full throttle override takes me to a max 25A on settings 5 to 9 however again the speed limit increases incrementally so the Amps vary depending on the speed and load.

I find That PAS setting 5 gives me 35kph to 40kph on reasonably flat road then I just hit the boost button (full throttle) holds speed as I hit inclines. Also I use the boost button to overtake or to boost my cruise speed up an extra 5kph. I like this setup and am quite satisfied not having 100% throttle and speed override in all assist settings.

lcrewse programmed mine for "increased throttle response" - not sure what that means exactly, but I get the full 25A of current with the throttle regardless of PAS setting.
 
Coincidentally, I just got an email from Legrand today on this topic - I had asked him a question about programming.

He told me two things I didn't know before: 1) since my unit was programmed for 5 PAS increments, level 6-9 are programmed the same (max current and RPM), and 2) PAS levels are programmed for both current and RPM.

Not sure what the settings are - I asked him to elaborate on that a bit more.
 
Well, I suppose that validates my results then.
Not sure why you wouldn't just program for 9 equal increments of PAS, though. It would be nice to have a finer control of assist current.
I can definitely feel the assist top out at a certain cadence though. It actually provides a small dead zone I can use to shift up (which took some getting used to) so I suppose its useful.
 
teslanv said:
Well, I suppose that validates my results then.
Not sure why you wouldn't just program for 9 equal increments of PAS, though. It would be nice to have a finer control of assist current.
I can definitely feel the assist top out at a certain cadence though. It actually provides a small dead zone I can use to shift up (which took some getting used to) so I suppose its useful.

I think he has the ability to program 9 discrete PAS settings, but you have to request that, since his default configuration is 5 settings.
 
LEGrand sets PAS level "0" to just the throttle, the PAS does not kick in. This is very useful for control modulation - means don't get a "double dose" of power, just when you don't want it...
 
It's so nice that the people who have the ability to program these units are sharing the software and knowledge with the rest of the community :roll:
 
Well I wouldnt go so far as "sharing". I havent seen a link to a downloadable program tool for the bafang yet. Looks like the that is being kept close to the chest. Sadly.
 
No doubt it's because Bafang doesn't want us "laymen" tinkering with their product, programming it to perform beyond its limits, breaking it, and then demanding they replace the charred remains with a shiny new unit, only to reprogram it and break it again.
If it were my design, I wouldn't want just anybody to have this ability. I would work with a few trusted vendors (like lcrewse) and limit my risk by stating clearly that any custom programming would void the warranty.

Which is exactly what they have done.

And even if they do reject warranty claims due to custom programming, when a drive fails because some NOOB pumps 2500W through it, it doesn't make the user look bad, it makes Bafang look bad.

It's a No-win for Bafang.

I guarantee you, if a software hack becomes available, you will soon see a new thread titled, "Help repairing my blackened Bafang Crank Drive"

The solution: - Allow for downloading of a program, which Bafang or lcrewse can produce and the user can install. This would allow those of us who didn't know all of our options when we ordered (or as new programming is made available) to "update" our units without having to send them back to the vendor. - Much like a firmware update on your Blu-ray player. - This would be an acceptable solution to me.
 
teslanv said:
No doubt it's because Bafang doesn't want us "laymen" tinkering with their product, programming it to perform beyond its limits, breaking it, and then demanding they replace the charred remains with a shiny new unit, only to reprogram it and break it again.
If it were my design, I wouldn't want just anybody to have this ability. I would work with a few trusted vendors (like lcrewse) and limit my risk by stating clearly that any custom programming would void the warranty.

Which is exactly what they have done.

And even if they do reject warranty claims due to custom programming, when a drive fails because some NOOB pumps 2500W through it, it doesn't make the user look bad, it makes Bafang look bad.

It's a No-win for Bafang.

I guarantee you, if a software hack becomes available, you will soon see a new thread titled, "Help repairing my blackened Bafang Crank Drive"

The solution: - Allow for downloading of a program, which Bafang or lcrewse can produce and the user can install. This would allow those of us who didn't know all of our options when we ordered (or as new programming is made available) to "update" our units without having to send them back to the vendor. - Much like a firmware update on your Blu-ray player. - This would be an acceptable solution to me.

Lol. Youre right on with the blackend drives. A firmware style update would be cool. All of this will proly become redundant as Bafang updates it over time. User testing will always show the weakness in a drive. Sounds like Bafang is already making a improved version with torque sensor. Hopefully they work on the software as much as they do the hardware. Even better would be to make it all customizable via the lcd unit and kept with in the range of specs from bafang. Like customizable assist levels, cadence settings, amp limiting, things like that.
 
teslanv said:
No doubt it's because Bafang doesn't want us "laymen" tinkering with their product, programming it to perform beyond its limits, breaking it, and then demanding they replace the charred remains with a shiny new unit, only to reprogram it and break it again.
If it were my design, I wouldn't want just anybody to have this ability. I would work with a few trusted vendors (like lcrewse) and limit my risk by stating clearly that any custom programming would void the warranty.

Which is exactly what they have done.

And even if they do reject warranty claims due to custom programming, when a drive fails because some NOOB pumps 2500W through it, it doesn't make the user look bad, it makes Bafang look bad.

It's a No-win for Bafang.

I guarantee you, if a software hack becomes available, you will soon see a new thread titled, "Help repairing my blackened Bafang Crank Drive"

The solution: - Allow for downloading of a program, which Bafang or lcrewse can produce and the user can install. This would allow those of us who didn't know all of our options when we ordered (or as new programming is made available) to "update" our units without having to send them back to the vendor. - Much like a firmware update on your Blu-ray player. - This would be an acceptable solution to me.

If the BBS is designed correctly, and the software would not allow settings that are outside of spec, I don't see why it should be a problem. Even a BionX is user configurable through the console to adjust it's behavior. Altering the top speed on the other end is not officially possible by the user. I'm pretty sure that this is because of legal reasons (with the bafang as well), If the user could set it to an illegal speed, maybe the device would not be permitted in several countries.

I will not buy a BBS until I know that I can configure it by myself. And I'm sure that I'm not the only one.

Regards, Nico
 
To some extend Bafang DOES allow for user programming - it's just not to the extent that we would all like. -you can adjust the max speed (but not make it unlimited) and the number of PAS levels. - and actually, you COULD trick the speed limited by changing your wheel diameter to a smaller number - this would basically give you "unlimited" speed, except that your speedo would be off. (Note to self - program for 20" DIAM wheel and see how fast this thing goes with my phone gps)
I'm not saying it's perfect, but it is a very nice set-up even just plain vanilla out of the box for a daily commuter set-up.
 
nioko said:
If the BBS is designed correctly, and the software would not allow settings that are outside of spec, I don't see why it should be a problem. Even a BionX is user configurable through the console to adjust it's behavior. Altering the top speed on the other end is not officially possible by the user. I'm pretty sure that this is because of legal reasons (with the bafang as well), If the user could set it to an illegal speed, maybe the device would not be permitted in several countries.

I will not buy a BBS until I know that I can configure it by myself. And I'm sure that I'm not the only one.

Regards, Nico

A lot of places have been using the "offroad only" for legal reason. (aft comes to mind) Dont know why that wouldnt apply here. And I agree on not buying one till I can configure it. Of course that will proly make lectriccyles lose sales. Right now that is why he can charge 300 bucks more for the unit then if you just bought a normal one from BMS or Aliexpress. (and some users have been getting units with the speed limiter removed from alixpress anyway).
 
Add the shipping costs from China, and lectriccycles is not that bad of a deal, and I got my unit in a couple days, as opposed to waiting several weeks. - And apparently he is selling them well, because he now has a 3-4 week backlog again.
I am curious what lcrewse's sales figures are for these units.
 
Back
Top