New build suggestions

[jc4291]

I've been riding an electrified 48V hub-drive Hybrid-style commuter bike to work everyday for the past two years and I'm starting to seriously think about converting a mountain bike to make trail riding a blast.


For motors I was hoping to reuse something I already have, but can be swayed to try something new. Right now I have:

A spare gng 650W mid-drive kit I played around with for awhile but never was too happy with (http://www.gngebike.com/60v650w-brushless)

Or an older ebikekit.com 500-1000W direct drive rear hub motor (link to new kit http://www.ebikekit.com/electric-bike-conversion-kits/rear-500w-1000w-direct-drive-conversion-kit/)


For a bike I have a 2003 Klein Palomino full suspension bike with disk brakes (http://www.bikepedia.com/quickbike/BikeSpecs.aspx?year=2003&brand=Klein&model=Palomino)

The controllers I have right now are a 9 FET 4110 72V Infineon brushless controller from Ed Lyen and a junky one that came with the GNG kit.

While I have many questions about the setup and welcome any suggestions my main questions arise with the battery. I have rode around on a 48V '12ah' Lipo from aliexpress.com that is showing signs of age after a year and a half of use, and even toyed around on a 48V lead acid pack that was heavy and ended up leaking. However, for this build, I was hoping to go to 72V to make the bike a little more exciting on the trails.

Right now I am deciding if I want to play it safe and buy a ready made LiPo4 cell from a reputable supplier. Right now I am looking at:

Ping battery's 60V 10AH (http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-18/60v-10ah-lifepo4-lithium/Detail)
BMS Battery's 72V 10AH (http://www.bmsbattery.com/packs/427-48v-10ah-38120-lifepo4-battery-16-cells-ebike-battery-pack.html)
Em3ev's 50V FrameBattery (http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=158)

Right now my budget for the battery is $600 max. Goal for distance is 10-15 miles, and ideally fit in the frame of the bike. Each of these batteries isn't without its drawbacks. Only BMS supplies a battery with my 72V requirement in the price range I want it, but it doesn't look like it will fit well in/on the frame I have.

I could always go down the path of the homemade RC lipo pack, but this route is new to me, so suggestions are always welcome. If I did go this route I would build the pack out of 6S 5000 mah packs from hobbyking.com, although I'm not sure what C rating to shoot for.

A big question in my mind about building my own pack is how to utilize a 'safe and effective' BMS circuit. Anyone with experience in homemade packs suggest a BMS or a balancing charge scheme that would work? I am also worried about the RC pack's longevity, I want the pack to last a year. Ideally the pack would also not burst into white-hot purple colored flames.

 

[jc4291]

To add more information:

Right now I am worried the full suspension frame won't fit the GNG motor too well since it requires a clamp to the frame while the drive pedals are on the moving suspension.

If I do go hub motor, I was thinking about buying a new motor because I haven't been super satisfied with ebikekit's motor so suggestions are welcomed there as well.

The controller I have can only handle about 2200W, which is convenient, because that is all the ebikekit or the gng motor can take before letting the smoke out according to the simulator (http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html). So I was thinking 72V at 30A.

What is the forum's informed opinion?

 

[999zip999]

A ping 10ah is for a 600watt motor 10 amp or maybe 15 amp controller. Bms battery is a roll of the dice with an extra shipping fee after ordering plus zero support. Em3ev should work. But what motor and controller ? Can you bike work with your middrive ? It can't be maybe.
Do some more reading and find a build and copy it. Lipo ??? How much money do you have to spend ?
The dd and em3ev triangle battery and controller and torque arm.

 

[dogman dan]

If I was building a new trail bike right now, I'd try the 48v bb motor from bafang. And likely a battery too from EM3ev.

But if you can find somebody stupid enough to part with a 10 or 12 turn 9c or muxus motor, then that makes a fine trail ride. But EM3ev isn't selling them anymore I think.

My stash of slow motors isn't for sale, that's for sure.

 

[motomech]

I've been riding an electrified 48V hub-drive Hybrid-style commuter bike to work everyday for the past two years and I'm starting to seriously think about converting a mountain bike to make trail riding a blast.


For motors I was hoping to reuse something I already have, but can be swayed to try something new. Right now I have:

A spare gng 650W mid-drive kit I played around with for awhile but never was too happy with (http://www.gngebike.com/60v650w-brushless)

Or an older ebikekit.com 500-1000W direct drive rear hub motor (link to new kit http://www.ebikekit.com/electric-bike-conversion-kits/rear-500w-1000w-direct-drive-conversion-kit/)


For a bike I have a 2003 Klein Palomino full suspension bike with disk brakes (http://www.bikepedia.com/quickbike/BikeSpecs.aspx?year=2003&brand=Klein&model=Palomino)



The controllers I have right now are a 9 FET 4110 72V Infineon brushless controller from Ed Lyen and a junky one that came with the GNG kit.

While I have many questions about the setup and welcome any suggestions my main questions arise with the battery. I have rode around on a 48V '12ah' Lipo from aliexpress.com that is showing signs of age after a year and a half of use, and even toyed around on a 48V lead acid pack that was heavy and ended up leaking. However, for this build, I was hoping to go to 72V to make the bike a little more exciting on the trails.

Right now I am deciding if I want to play it safe and buy a ready made LiPo4 cell from a reputable supplier. Right now I am looking at:

Ping battery's 60V 10AH (http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-18/60v-10ah-lifepo4-lithium/Detail)
BMS Battery's 72V 10AH (http://www.bmsbattery.com/packs/427-48v-10ah-38120-lifepo4-battery-16-cells-ebike-battery-pack.html)
Em3ev's 50V FrameBattery (http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=158)

Right now my budget for the battery is $600 max. Goal for distance is 10-15 miles, and ideally fit in the frame of the bike. Each of these batteries isn't without its drawbacks. Only BMS supplies a battery with my 72V requirement in the price range I want it, but it doesn't look like it will fit well in/on the frame I have.

I could always go down the path of the homemade RC lipo pack, but this route is new to me, so suggestions are always welcome. If I did go this route I would build the pack out of 6S 5000 mah packs from hobbyking.com, although I'm not sure what C rating to shoot for.

A big question in my mind about building my own pack is how to utilize a 'safe and effective' BMS circuit. Anyone with experience in homemade packs suggest a BMS or a balancing charge scheme that would work? I am also worried about the RC pack's longevity, I want the pack to last a year. Ideally the pack would also not burst into white-hot purple colored flames.

Well, with what you have on hand, I think the bike would be fine for moderate trail riding.
But for that type of riding, you want a geared motor. I would go with the Bafang BPM CST from BMS Battery:

http://www.bmsbattery.com/hub-motor/505-qswxk-front-drive-brushless-hub-motor-for-ebike.html

Normaly, one might order the entire wheel (need to check shipping, bare hub vs. entire wheel), but I'm not sure you need much else from the kit and maybe a better whl. ASM than what BMS Battery would supply would be better for off-riding.
For a controller, @ 12S lipo(more on this in a moment), you want something in the 25 to 30 Amp range, no more.
You could reuse the 9 FET Lyen, but it would need to be toned down. You could limit Amps with a C.A., or maybe send it to Lyen for recalibration. He could also reset the LVC for the pack you go with.
A better option(that might cost more) might be a Lyen Mini-Monster 6-FET or an Infineon 25A 6-FET from Ebike CA
This would be just enough power to make trail riding fun, but you would have to pick your hills. It's not going to to climb like a gas dirt bike, but to go more power would require more bike, more battery, more $$$$, etc.
Speaking of batteries, far and away, your best choice would be Lipo. Aside from their superior power density, your pack can be built modular and the number of bricks you carry can be adjusted to the lenght of the trail ride. A big plus!
I would highly recommend going with Turnigy Hardcase packs:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15521__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack.html

3S\1P would be 12S\5Ah, 3S\2P would be 12S\10Ah., etc. The H.case bricks would be easy to mount in your triangle space and 12S(44 to 46 V) is an easy Voltage to work with. 20C is more than enough for that system and you don't need a BMS. Just a Volt meter and a good LVC

I would add a disc brake on the frt.

 

[jc4291]

Well, with what you have on hand, I think the bike would be fine for moderate trail riding.
But for that type of riding, you want a geared motor. I would go with the Bafang BPM CST from BMS Battery:

http://www.bmsbattery.com/hub-motor/505-qswxk-front-drive-brushless-hub-motor-for-ebike.html

Normaly, one might order the entire wheel (need to check shipping, bare hub vs. entire wheel), but I'm not sure you need much else from the kit and maybe a better whl. ASM than what BMS Battery would supply would be better for off-riding.
For a controller, @ 12S lipo(more on this in a moment), you want something in the 25 to 30 Amp range, no more.
You could reuse the 9 FET Lyen, but it would need to be toned down. You could limit Amps with a C.A., or maybe send it to Lyen for recalibration. He could also reset the LVC for the pack you go with.
A better option(that might cost more) might be a Lyen Mini-Monster 6-FET or an Infineon 25A 6-FET from Ebike CA
This would be just enough power to make trail riding fun, but you would have to pick your hills. It's not going to to climb like a gas dirt bike, but to go more power would require more bike, more battery, more $$$$, etc.
Speaking of batteries, far and away, your best choice would be Lipo. Aside from their superior power density, your pack can be built modular and the number of bricks you carry can be adjusted to the lenght of the trail ride. A big plus!
I would highly recommend going with Turnigy Hardcase packs:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15521__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack.html

3S\1P would be 12S\5Ah, 3S\2P would be 12S\10Ah., etc. The H.case bricks would be easy to mount in your triangle space and 12S(44 to 46 V) is an easy Voltage to work with. 20C is more than enough for that system and you don't need a BMS. Just a Volt meter and a good LVC

I would add a disc brake on the frt.

Just to make it clear, I already did a disc brake conversion so that should take care of that.

As for the hard cells, do you like them because they don't need any external casing or because they have lasted/performed to your expectations? What are your thoughts on a soft pack 6S from Turnigy in a hard waterproof case?

I think I will end up getting a cycle analyst and I can program the LVC myself. Think that will work?