new build using a Schwinn Tailwind front geared hub

D

Deadmul3

10 mW
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
28
Hi!,

I have been reading and researching E-bikes for the last few months. At 1st I was considering a ready-to-go bike but I have a quality Scott SUB 35 that should work fine!

So, I bought a wheel set with the front hub via this thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=48460
( I sold the rear hub which I don't need) ...

This is the rest of the kit I am considering but I am a bit unsure of the throttle and/or PAS.

So I think I am just gonna follow DewJunkie's lead and go with a BMS battery and controller because its clear that I am still a bit lost in electric Bike technology

So I am thinking about the following
1) 36V15Ah Li-Ion Alloy 03-CASE EBike Battery Pack With a Carrier Rack
2) KU93 450W 9Mosfets High Speed Controller
3) A Pair of E-Bike Torque Arm (12m)

now the only problem I need to work out is out to throttle or set up PAS.

so I don't think that will work and I am not sure if PAS can be setup ?
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/504-pas-pulse-padel-assistant-sensor.html

I do see this left hand throttle that may work http://www.ebikes.ca/store/photos/T-LHTwist.jpg
The final part is how to hook this all together, I don't have a diagrams for the wheel hub and have no idea what wire does exactly what.
any advice is appreciated...

deadmul3
 
I think I made some progress ... at least as far as basic wiring understanding....lol

The hub has a part number of bf904dD10534, this thread explains the bafang SWXH6 wiring and link to a wiring jpeg that matches my hub.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8928
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=19356

the wires match (even by color) except mine has a connector on the end of hall sensor wires. almost there !
 
Wiring is very straight forward. Everything should clip together.
The KU93 might be a bit too powerful for that motor. I'd get the KU65 and solder a third of the shunt to increase the current a bit. The KU65 has the panel with three levels of PAS, which is a lot better than the maximum level that others give.
The battery you chose looks OK, but you can save a lot of weight by doing your battery like this. You can stick your controller and wiring in the bag too, which saves a lot of messing about. You want the battery as low as possible and as close to the seat-post as possible to get the best handling. Those rack-batteries that you linked to not only look hideous ion your bike, but also put the weight too high and too far back:
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/14308-how-make-rack-battery.html

You can get batter bags than that like the one in the photo below.
This would be my shopping list for that motor:
http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/165-36v-15ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/54-thumb-level-throttle-with-battery-meter-and-a-switch.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/49-pas--pulse-padel-assistant-sensor.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/415-hall-sensorsensorless-250watts-brushless-hub-motor-controller.html
and two of these if you have cable brakes:
http://www.bmsbattery.com/459-hwbs-hidden-wire-brake-sensor.html



Alternatively you can get this battery that has a fixing plate that you can fit to the same sort of self-made rack

http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/232-36v-15ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html
 
Here's what I bought for my Tailwind kit. I think the motor is an SWXB.

http://www.greenbikekit.com/index.php/motor-controller/250w-36v-electric-bicycle-hub-motor-controller.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-36V-12AH-Lithium-Lon-Battery-Li-ion-Battery-for-Electric-Bike-with-Charger-Kit/786948080.html

I also bought the LED meter, a PAS, and the twist throttle. I initially thought something was wrong with the HAL sensor's or the controller because the motor would only work after being spun in reverse direction. Now I've learned that something was messed up when I spliced the HAL sensor wire in. I removed that wire, and now everything works perfectly. The color codes on the CON62 match perfectly with the Bafang hub motor. It is my understanding that the KU65 and the CON62 are the same or very similar. I'm not using the PAS as I decided it was just a waste.

Before I found the problem with my sensor wire, I ordered this controller. I'm still waiting for it to arrive. It operates in sensorless or sensored mode.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Motor-controller-for-electric-bicycle-BLDC36V-48V/547795629.html

I'm very happy with the battery for the price shipped. It's put together very well. I cut the shrink wrap to check the soldering and stuff. It looks like it was built better than the headway battery I put together myself. It's made up of 12 square hard plastic cells. I'm not sure if they're prismatic or what. They look similar to the ones listed in the picture on the golden motor site. My RC watt meter shows I draw about 15A WOT on this setup. The voltage of the batteries sags from about 40v to 36v. It isn't fully charged and I only ran it for 1ah to test everything out. It's been raining the last couple of days so I haven't done a full test. I'm not sure how much a $200 1c LiFePo4 battery should sag but I'm happy with it.
http://www.goldenmotor.com/batterypack.htm
 
D8veh,

Thanks for the link to the rack and your build. That is one hideous bike rack, lol. One of the main goals of this project is a bike that is still light with pedal assist and a bit of throttle. I am still mulling through the battery choices (weight vs cycles vs Ah vs everything else) but thanks for pointing out the cable brake sensors! I do see the KU65 has a low voltage brake wire and I noticed a lot of kits had brake levers, but I wanted to keep my levers, so this seems like a good solution! so, controller decided!

This is going to be for around town and general riding I would like to keep it light, would this battery drive the motor okay for short distances ?
(URL says 10Ah, specs say 8Ah) http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/514-36v-10ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html

only 2.0 Kg! and might fit in a triangle type pack (need to measure).

MD,

Thanks for the reply! I am still checking out your suggestions. Although I would like to just make a single order (leaning BMSbattery) since this is my 1st go with overseas bike parts. I hope this build is successful and if so, my next will be more of a commuter (12-15 miles each way). The one lesson I have learned here so far is one size does not fit all when it comes to electric bikes.

thanks....this is very cool :)
 
The problem with a small battery is that it can't give enough current. Don't take any notice of the 15amps continuous and 30 amps max in the listing. They just relate to the rating of the BMS. That battery will sag a lot when going up hills. The bigger the battery, the more current you can get from it, and the less the voltage sag under power. 10aH should be your minimum, and 12aH is better.

If you have a big enough triangle, you might be able to squeeze in a 10aH bottle battery. It says 325mm long, but you need room above the top end to lift it in/out of the holder. If you decide on one I can give you some minimum triangle dimensions. You'll need somewhere for the controller. BMSBattery provide a box that clips on the seat tube, but it's really tight to get the controller in it because of the stiffness of the wires, although you can improve it by cutting off all the surplus wires:
http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/522-bottle-ebike-battery.html
 
D8veh,

thanks again. I think I have a better understanding now. I am going to with your 1st suggestion of the 36v15Ah battery . bag and rear rack. I did read through your builds on pedelec and it was very helpful in understanding the various layouts and bike styles! I have to say I don't really care for the looks of the bottle battery and the weight was not listed. I am also pretty sure it will not fit as the frames triangle is quite tight.

So, this is the order I am almost ready to go with ...

http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/165-36v-15ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/54-thumb-level-throttle-with-battery-meter-and-a-switch.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/49-pas--pulse-padel-assistant-sensor.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/459-hwbs-hidden-wire-brake-sensor.html

I added Torque arms but I am not sure if I need them.
I also curious if there are other connectors or items that I should order also ?

current total w/o shipping is
Total $292.80

thanks again for the advice!
 
Haha, thanks!
I did have it in the cart after all but I left PAS out.
Its all good - order placed - $122 shipping via DHL - nothing left to do but smile smile smile ! :)
 
I too have the Schwinn E8 and would like to know how your upgrades worked out?
 
dmtcov,

Well, i just got everything this morning. There are both pro and negative threads regarding BMSbattery. As far as my order (via PayPal) went, they updated their website as the order moved along and once it hit DHL I received a tracking number and I actually knew it would arrive this morning within an hour. real time updates. Everything in the box appears as ordered except for the battery shape.

The battery is more square than rectangle but that's okay with me. A pic of the battery and the red/black power connectors provided.
http://imgur.com/KQLsq7H,hbC3YHo#0

So this is part where I kinda of knew I would get stuck. I am still trying to figure out the nomenclature for the different connectors, but it seems that I might need to build/buy a short cable to connect the battery to the controller. Also the same it seems would go for the (3) phase wires coming out of the motor as I plan to use a frame bag for the battery/controller so it seems I will need to extend the controllers power and sensors wires somehow. either that or i am completely lost LOL.

I have been reading ALOT of threads and its amazing how many just go "got it hooked up and running" this board may be too smart for me if it is that easy :)
The wheel is on and I had hoped to at least test the battery/motor but I have quite a bit more to do before that happens.
 
good luck with your project!

It took me most of a week to figure out how to get power from the battery (mine actually has a key that turns it off and on) and then how to wire everything up (what exactly was and was not needed) and then to figure out that the controller and the throttle were wired wrong and get that fixed. Now it runs good. Whew!

Chas
 
hmm,

Well i did learn the connectors on the battery are 'Anderson' connectors http://www.andersonpower.com and the wiki page is helpful.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Main_Page

My goal was just to test the motor/controller/battery today but I have barely thought about how to turn it "off/on" with a switch.
I don't really think i need a key though. For some reason i thought the LED panel would turn the whole off/on but I am still not sure.
 
Ok, so some progress.
If I mount the controller in a frame bag I need a cable(s) 12-18 inches long to connect the 3 phase wires and the hall sensors wires from controller to the hub.
according to the KU65 wiring diagram the 6P connector has 5 wires as does the front hub connector (not sure what this connector is called), so far so good.

http://imgur.com/uEgnn1C,d8QypN9#1 - first pic is the controller side and the other is the hub. The wire gauge is smaller on the hub but the connector seems a little nicer.
There is no way a 6P connector will even begin to fit on the hub side due to the small gauge wire, so it seems i need some way to go from the smaller gauge wires to the larger.
I can change the connector on the controller but man those are small wires on the hub.

The throttle / led panel and PAS connect with no issues but i have concern about wire lengths, short on the PAS and (how the heck does the sensor mount anyway ?? ) and really long on the throttle / led panel.
I also would like to be able to remove the battery for charging. I am thinking of a cable like this http://www.ebikes.ca/store/photos/BattCable12.jpg to go from the battery to the controller for the main power but either way it looks like I need a crimper to add Anderson to the controller.
 
When you build a bike from a kit, it's inevitable that you'll need to lengthen a few wires and change a few connectors.
You should always check that the colours match on each side of the connector, except that for a throttle or PAS, you only need to match the red and black wires.
Always check the polarity of your battery and charger connectors before connecting the battery to the controller or charger to the battery. They often use blue for +ve and brown for 0v.
The PAS sensor mounts behind the bottom bracket flange. You have to remove the crank and BB to fit it, for which you need a crank-puller and BB removal tool. The sensor only works in one direction, so if it ends up working backwards, you have to flip the magnet disk. There's an arrow on it which shows the correct direction on the chain-wheel side. If you fit it on the left side, the arrow will be wrong, so has to point in the back-pedalling direction.

I'm not sure what wires you got with the motor, but you can get a nice cable with a waterproof connector for easy wheel removal.
http://www.greenbikekit.com/index.php/accessories/9pin-waterproof-connector-cable.html
 
D8veh,

I don't mind changing the connectors to match but other than the Anderson connectors (crimper $40 plus connectors) I still don't know what I need for the hall sensor connector or the other cables.
it looks like either a d-sub 5 pin or something else (another crimper @ $30 plus connectors). I am still digging but this along with "You have to remove the crank and BB to fit it" means i am at complete stop.

I have worked on bikes before (tires, adjustments etc) but I have never pulled a BB and probably will not start now.
We do have a lot of LBSs but they are all into single speed bikes and would just laugh at an electric setup, and likely not be helpful.

Might be time to go back and look at pre-built bikes in case I have made a mistake with this purchase (just kidding LOL) ... thanks for your help

edit: added LOL :)
 
Take a look at my build, maybe it helps as I did something similar to what you did:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49691

The KU65 needs the battery, motor, throttle, and Halls wires to work. You don't have to use the PAS if you don't want to.
The 6 pin connector has 5 pins for the halls wires, and these will have to match up properly for the KU65 to run (with the KU63 this is optional). That is the connector in your photo. You might be able to pull the halls wires out of the white connector and plug them (the male pins) directly into the black connector. If you find the little locking tab on the pins, they pull right out of the connector. D8veh gave me good instructions on how to do this.

Yep, those little geared motors use tiny halls wires. That is the part that tends to fail if you overheat the motor.

Yep, the PAS wire is short. Most people mount the controller somewhere under the seat, and it is a short run down to the pedals from there.
 
D8veh,

So for the battery power to controller power, I just need to change the molex style connector on the controller to Anderson connectors which were provided, I think I will need a Tricrimp to do this properly.
Does the 9-pin cable on the link you provide phase (3 wires) and hall sensor (5 wires) ? If the wires are all the same gauge maybe just the hall sensors ?

Chas58 - thanks ! reading your build thread now.
 
I think the HS connector on the hub matches this connector http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/x-plug5m.htm, if I get this connector http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/x-plug5f.htm and it doesn't match, no worries I should be able to replace the connector on the hub with the one above which matches either way. I wanted to keep the hub side connector in-tact due the quality of the connection (shoo-goo and all).

The cable (controller to hub) I need is something like this http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/x-extnpwrhe.htm or what d8veh pointed out earlier. So at this point I am still another order of materials away before I make any progress.

One other idea is to cut my losses on the controller and go with something from ebikes.ca which appears to have mostly the right the cables and connectors and I could add a CA later. It looks like I would only have to change the hub/HS connectors http://www.ebikes.ca/store/photos/C3620-NC.jpg - less connections for me to get wrong LOL
I have also decided against PAS after much further reading...which was kinda of the point with the LED panel (on/off low med high) with the KU65
 
You're making all this more complicated than it needs to be. If you don't have the right connectors, just solder the wires together and put some heat-shrink over the joins, which is much more reliable anyway. Don't use crimps on battery or phase wires: Always solder them.

The motor wire in the link above is specially for ebike motors and has all the correct wires. The waterproof connector should be positioned near the hub so that it's much easier to change your tyre and fix punctures. You can solder the other end directly to the controller's PCB. You can also chuck all the wires you don't need or join them internally for a much neater installation.
 
d8veh, thanks for all your help. I just got back from a 18 mile ride, it's all good. sorry for the bother.
 
I'm glad you got everything going. I've got a little over 200 miles on mine so far. Usually I ride it to work 3 times a week. I'm trying for more, but sometimes, I know I'll have to run other errands along the way. Already I feel in much better shape than I was last month, and that is just with light pedaling along.
 
DewJunkie,

cool! I am on my 3rd day (25 miles round trip) and I plan on riding everyday if possible. I am actually moving from a scooter to the e-bike. Thanks for all your help!

Top speed today was 32mph and average moving speed was 18.0!
 
Here's a couple of pics if anyone is interested. I have put over 30 miles a day on for the past 2 weeks and it has been a blast.

The finished bike
http://imgur.com/BRDaGBt

The wires going up the seat post into the trunk bag
http://imgur.com/W6escNV

and the controller / battery in trunk bag
http://imgur.com/DC7yIbm

I think the next step is to order a front hub motor and have it laced back into the original rim. after that i would like to upgrade the controller to add a CA. Right now I can go nearly 30 miles on single charge, though it may go a bit further as I haven't run it all the way down yet. I did go with the Li-Ion NiCoMn (36v15Ah) battery and I am very happy so far.

Thanks again for everyone's advice and guidance! I am really glad I didn't buy a pre-built bike now.
 
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