new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[A-DamW]

I'm at a crossroads with this motor. It had been working great for nearly 12 000 km over 3.5 years. It has developed a clunking sound while under load which I initially though might be the bearings or my freewheel crank etc... I have replaced nearly everything in a effort to fix the clunking sound:

all bearings in motor (including bearings on nylon gears etc...)
new crank freewheel
new motor freewheel
new chainrings
new cassette

the test I do is apply a small amount of rear brake to apply a load and then give it a small amount of throttle and the clucking sound is replicated. The clunking sound seems to be related to the rotation of the motor. Any ideas?

Have you tried isolating components? like maybe remove the planetary gearbox and throttle the motor while grabbing the output shaft with a glove on, inspect the nylon gears for wear/missing teeth, throttle the motor with planetary installed but no drive chain to crankset, etc. ?
Fyi, I have a bunch of cyclone parts if you find the clunk problem needs a hard to find part.

 

[Pablo]

Paul of SBP told me in December that he might continue selling items such as the White Industries hubs on eBay.

My last texts with him were in Dec. this # may still work:

206 XXX XXXX

If possible can you have my personal phone # deleted?

That said I have some remaining parts for sale on ebay.

 

[Pablo]

That would be excellent, thanks for the info.

I know you were quoting and not anyone's fault - If possible can you have my personal phone # deleted from your quote? Thanks

 

[pwd]

Have you tried isolating components? like maybe remove the planetary gearbox and throttle the motor while grabbing the output shaft with a glove on, inspect the nylon gears for wear/missing teeth, throttle the motor with planetary installed but no drive chain to crankset, etc. ?
Fyi, I have a bunch of cyclone parts if you find the clunk problem needs a hard to find part.

Thanks for the suggestion. The gears, from what I could tell looked ok. Here is a shot before cleaning off the old grease.




I have isolated the behavior it to the motor with the gearbox on (no chain connected), but haven't tried with the gearbox off. I'll have to do that.

 

[pwd]

I know you were quoting and not anyone's fault - If possible can you have my personal phone # deleted from your quote? Thanks

Done

 

[pwd]

I have isolated the behavior it to the motor with the gearbox on (no chain connected), but haven't tried with the gearbox off. I'll have to do that.

Have you tried isolating components? like maybe remove the planetary gearbox and throttle the motor while grabbing the output shaft with a glove on, inspect the nylon gears for wear/missing teeth, throttle the motor with planetary installed but no drive chain to crankset, etc. ?
Fyi, I have a bunch of cyclone parts if you find the clunk problem needs a hard to find part.

I just did a basic test with the gearbox removed and the motor shaft seems to spin well with a bit of a load on it. I took a plastic pipe and slid it over the tiny bit of motor shaft that protrudes from the sprocket (aka sun gear) and pushed down. (I didn't want to remove the sun gear since I just "glued" it down the other day with some retaining compound).

The noise seems to be coming from the gearbox. The clunk sound seems to match the rotation of the shaft from the gearbox and not the sun gear since it spins much faster. I'm not sure what component within the gearbox would be causing the noise though, all the bearings seem OK (and new) and the shaft spins nicely with only a tiny amount of inboard-outboard play and the gears appear to be in good shape (see photo above).

 

[A-DamW]

I just did a basic test with the gearbox removed and the motor shaft seems to spin well with a bit of a load on it. I took a plastic pipe and slid it over the tiny bit of motor shaft that protrudes from the sprocket (aka sun gear) and pushed down. (I didn't want to remove the sun gear since I just "glued" it down the other day with some retaining compound).

The noise seems to be coming from the gearbox. The clunk sound seems to match the rotation of the shaft from the gearbox and not the sun gear since it spins much faster. I'm not sure what component within the gearbox would be causing the noise though, all the bearings seem OK (and new) and the shaft spins nicely with only a tiny amount of inboard-outboard play and the gears appear to be in good shape (see photo above).

If you are fairly confident it is the gearbox, I would go over it with a fine toothed comb, 12,000 km is enough to develop hairline cracks in things like the cast aluminum casing, ring gear, the three planetary carrier shafts, etc.
Nylon gears especially, they are typically the weak point.
My gut tells me one of the nylon gear(s) has a fracture of some kind.

 

[pwd]

If you are fairly confident it is the gearbox, I would go over it with a fine toothed comb, 12,000 km is enough to develop hairline cracks in things like the cast aluminum casing, ring gear, the three planetary carrier shafts, etc.
Nylon gears especially, they are typically the weak point.
My gut tells me one of the nylon gear(s) has a fracture of some kind.

Thank you for your advice and help; I'm going to try and inspect it closer as well as do a couple more tests to make sure it's the gearbox.

 

[pwd]

Still troubleshooting but here is a video of the noise:

New video by P Davis

photos.google.com

 

[A-DamW]

Still troubleshooting but here is a video of the noise:

New video by P Davis

photos.google.com

Thanks for the video, I listened to it several dozen times on repeat while watching the master link on the drive chain go past to judge rotational speed.
The clunk/bump sounds closer to the motor rotational speed to me.
Looks like full motor gearbox tear down time! Isn't it fun being your own mechanic!
Another option would be to just ride the bike and watch/listen for it to worsen, to reveal the issue, hopefully in a graceful way.
Also, just to clarify, the clunk developed on it's own in the course of normal riding? not after opening the motor to replace bearings?

 

[A-DamW]

Another thing I do to ALL my cyclone installs, is add some precision spacers to the gear box bolts, this allows the fasteners to properly transmit the force to the threaded case instead of the front flange.
I have some cyclone gearboxes that would bind up/grind even with finger tight bolts till I added these spacers.
You might try progressively loosening(just for testing!) your face bolts and see if the clunk changes.
If it were me, I would add those spacers regardless, it is a design weakness of the cyclone.

 

[pwd]

Thanks for the video, I listened to it several dozen times on repeat while watching the master link on the drive chain go past to judge rotational speed.
The clunk/bump sounds closer to the motor rotational speed to me.
Looks like full motor gearbox tear down time! Isn't it fun being your own mechanic!
Another option would be to just ride the bike and watch/listen for it to worsen, to reveal the issue, hopefully in a graceful way.
Also, just to clarify, the clunk developed on it's own in the course of normal riding? not after opening the motor to replace bearings?

Thanks for watching. Yes, I though about just riding the bike but the clunk sound is driving me mad. That behavior developed on it's own which is why I went down the road of tracking the sound and replacing bearings etc... After some more troubleshooting, the gearbox output shaft seem to spin freely. Here is another shot of the gears:


It does seem like there is some play between the planetary gears and ring gear... I'm not sure how much play is normal but like you pointed out; after 12000kms; something has got to have worn out and the plastic gears would be the weakest material. Here is a video of the play, notice the sound of the gear teeth hitting the sun ring.... I think this may be it.

New video by P Davis

photos.app.goo.gl

I've managed to track down and order some gears that look identical to the cyclone ones (same measurements) but for less than half the price:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000028568926.html

I'll have to wait till they arrive in a couple weeks, fingers crossed and thanks for your help.

 

[A-DamW]

!

 

[pwd]

I'm happy to report that it seems new gears have solved the issue/clunking sound. I checked the play before re-installing the gearbox and there was zero play on the new gears. I like your idea of of adding spacers to the gearbox bolts, so I've got some of them (M6 x 20mm) on order. I should be good for another 12000kms or so.

 

[A-DamW]

That is great to hear pwd!
Overall, I think the cyclone3k is pretty bullet proof if operated sensibly.
I have a couple builds with the 3k, and starting my third, someday I will get some build threads started.

I should be good for another 12000kms or so.

Awesome!

 

[uhmwpolyethylene]

The new single chain cyclone looks nice. also kinda reminds me of this "high drive" 8lb 1000-3800w motor Electric BMX (@chimeracycles) • Instagram photos and videos

Does anyone sell the cyclone stamped at 750w? Also does it have an internal permanent magnet rotor like BBSHD?

 

[pwd]

I have some wobble on my chainring as the crank arm spins around. It is not the crank freewheel because if I don't spin the crank arm; there is no wobble. Similar behavior to this but the wobble is much more noticeable:

If I understand correctly this "wobble" or runout is caused by the crank arm not sitting seating perfectly flush on the bottom bracket spindle (an ISIS one in my case). Does anyone have a fix or remedy for this?

 

[calab]

In the video I see the crank gears moving but do the crank arm moves as much or less or at all?
Loose freewheel crank mechanism with the gears, mine did the same c4k.

 

[Pablo]

I have some wobble on my chainring as the crank arm spins around. It is not the crank freewheel because if I don't spin the crank arm; there is no wobble. Similar behavior to this but the wobble is much more noticeable:

If I understand correctly this "wobble" or runout is caused by the crank arm not sitting seating perfectly flush on the bottom bracket spindle (an ISIS one in my case). Does anyone have a fix or remedy for this?

The odd bit is that ISIS crankset does this. Very, very weird. Never seen that with ISIS

100% normal for square taper. But your Isis set up is worse??? Wow. I would take it apart to see what is going on.

Replacements are not super expensive on Ebay:

brook45izy on eBay

Follow brook45izy on eBay. Buying, Selling, Collecting on eBay has never been more exciting!

www.ebay.com

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

I have some wobble on my chainring as the crank arm spins around. It is not the crank freewheel because if I don't spin the crank arm; there is no wobble. Similar behavior to this but the wobble is much more noticeable:

If I understand correctly this "wobble" or runout is caused by the crank arm not sitting seating perfectly flush on the bottom bracket spindle (an ISIS one in my case). Does anyone have a fix or remedy for this?

I have the same small wobble on my cyc stealth gen1.

 

[pwd]

Here is some footage of the my "wobble" or run out.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=VHh2bVg3SGV1MnRWeUxWMHhGaXFjSE45QTBBYVNB

Google Photos

In the video I see the crank gears moving but do the crank arm moves as much or less or at all?
Loose freewheel crank mechanism with the gears, mine did the same c4k.

It's hard for me to tell but I *think* the crank arm is moving with the freewheel, which is why I suspect the interface between the crank arm and the ISIS spindle and not the freewheel.

100% normal for square taper. But your Isis set up is worse??? Wow. I would take it apart to see what is going on.

I did a bit of testing, although limited. Since I don't have another ISIS spindle to test on, I moved the crankarm with the freewheel and chainrings etc... to the other side of the spindle and it still has some wobble; although it was difficult to tell if it was the same amount or not. Unfortunately I use the 177mm version of the ISIS spindle for my setup otherwise I may take a shot at trying a new spindle.

One think I noticed is that the crank arm seem to be more inboard when mounting on the drive side comparted to the non-drive side. Maybe by a 3 mm or so; I presume that the spindle is a bit more worn on the drive side since I've re-installed it many times over the last few years.

 

[Pablo]

I am going to guess the problem is more likely the cast and machined CRANK vs the BB cartridge, BUT see if you can measure the run out of the BB cartridge spindle.

 

[ganzey]

I have some wobble on my chainring as the crank arm spins around. It is not the crank freewheel because if I don't spin the crank arm; there is no wobble. Similar behavior to this but the wobble is much more noticeable:

If I understand correctly this "wobble" or runout is caused by the crank arm not sitting seating perfectly flush on the bottom bracket spindle (an ISIS one in my case). Does anyone have a fix or remedy for this?

the wobble is from the freewheel. i havent dug into why, but i would guess the bearing races are not machined parallel, so when the freewheel is engaged, it does not do it, but if it is freewheeling, it wobbles. Pretty much all cheap freewheels do it, even little razor dirt bikes and scooters do it with no BB or crank arms.

 

[amberwolf]

Most of the really cheap freewheels I've had apart don't have enough bearings to completely surround the entire race, so if for whatever reason the bearings cluster so there's a large gap, if the gaps end up on diametrically opposing places on the two sides, maybe the sprocket could then lean over a tiny bit one way, then the other, as it rotates around. The larger the sprocket, the greater the lateral wobble could be.

They should have bearings all the way around like this

 

[DaLanMan]

Ok, I tinker on bikes, but not really knowledgeable I have however managed ordering and logistics for guys who were mechenically ept.

We had bearing issues crop up regularly, I had a collection of "good" bearings that were replacements for old sets (they wear in, and putting one new one in with the old had issues I was told) I also kept drawers full of various sized ones, the only issue was making sure the hardness matched the load, which I don't think would be so much a problem with bikes.

Couldn't ya just.. order a few of them? King Bearing was my best buddy back in the day. They knew stuff, and my incoherent mutterings and trying to repeat what the mechanics had told me was not sufficiently incompetent for them to manage to get the right parts in my hands about 95% of the time.