jeff.page.rides
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feketehegyi said:
Thanks for your input
New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"
- Thread starter larsottar
- Start date
Thanks for your input
Elinx said:
For longevity a bearing with full contacting seals should be used, then the separate dust seal is no longer required.
6902 RS/6902 2RS (RS = rubber seals, 2 = both sides) do not contact the inner race so have less drag but let in water and dirt.
At a minimum, use a SKF 61902 2RS1. RS1 designates contact seals, these are the best seals SKF offer on direct 6902RS replacement.
But there are better bearings specifically designed for external use on bicycles including MTBs. LLU is how other manufacturers designate their contact seals which ride in a groove. The below LLU bearings use dual seals, one to keep contaminants out and the other to keep the grease in. The SKF RS1 seals only ride in a groove in the outer race and have a single contacting lip on the inner race. But the MTRX07 don't contain grease, instead using an interesting "solid oil", so they don't need the additional inner seal to keep the grease in.
SKF KAMB MTRX07 - Solid oil (no wash out), contact RS1 type seals
https://www.skf-mtrx.de/en/product-details
https://evolution.skf.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/06/17-3-tech-rsh-fig-2.jpg
ENDURO 6902 LLU range
6902LLUMAX - Dual lip seals, 90% grease fill, maximum number of balls, no retainer (cage) and fill slot for balls
6902LLUMAXBO - Black Oxide finish
6902LLUMAX-E - Extended 10 mm inner race
6902LLUMAX-EB - Extended 9.5mm inner race, with flange (discontinued?)
https://www.endurobearings.com/wp-content/uploads//2011/12/Max-catalog.pdf
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Enduro-Bearings/Deep-Groove-Ball-Bearings-6902-15-mm-x-28-mm-x-7-mm-p57556/
http://www.wychbearings.co.uk/6902-llu-max_enduro_bearing.html
NTN 6902 LLU
Dual lip seals, teflon impregnated grease
https://bearingfinder.ntnamericas.com/item/all-categories/single-row-radial-ball-bearings/6902llu
https://www.hambini.com/product/ntn-6902-llu-15x28x7-61902-fully-contacting-seal-genuine-bearing/
*The 6902 LLU MAX-E is particular interesting as it has an extended 10mm inner race which could help reduce play and provide better support. I am not sure if there is enough space on the drive side. But it's worth considering for the non-drive side as it could be fitted further outboard in place of the dust seal there.
Hello,
Today, I've wanted to do heat dissipation improvement on my motor following tutorial on wiki, replace the blue gear, regrease everything and silicone seal the housing for extra waterproofness. Everything went quite well until I had to test it out... And the motor is not working properly. After pedalling harder I noticed that power drops and there's this weird sound coming out of the motor like "wrum wrum" (here's a short video with that sound).
I have 2800km on this motor and this is the first time I opened it up. The blue gear seemed fine but I still decided to replace it with a new one. To regrease everything I've used ParkTool PPL-1 PolyLube 1000.
Here are some pictures of my progress: https://imgur.com/a/gKUjd30
Does anybody have any ideas what could be wrong?
Today, I've wanted to do heat dissipation improvement on my motor following tutorial on wiki, replace the blue gear, regrease everything and silicone seal the housing for extra waterproofness. Everything went quite well until I had to test it out... And the motor is not working properly. After pedalling harder I noticed that power drops and there's this weird sound coming out of the motor like "wrum wrum" (here's a short video with that sound).
I have 2800km on this motor and this is the first time I opened it up. The blue gear seemed fine but I still decided to replace it with a new one. To regrease everything I've used ParkTool PPL-1 PolyLube 1000.
Here are some pictures of my progress: https://imgur.com/a/gKUjd30
Does anybody have any ideas what could be wrong?
Andrew707 said:
Did you also install the temperature sensor at the time, and if so have you configured the firmware properly? Otherwise, perhaps the motor caps were not evenly refitted but perhaps someone else has seen this before.
Also it's unlikely to be the problem if the noise started immediately, but does the Park Tool grease specifically mention it's safe for plastics? The SDS says it contains "Petroleum distillates, hydrotreated heavy naphthenic 40-50%" and so seems mineral oil based.
https://www.parktool.com/assets/doc/product/PPL-1_PPL-2_SDS.pdf
I would change it for at least a synthetic PAO based grease, there have been a few recommendations previously posted.
skestans
100 W
What connectors did you use internally for the temperature sensor? I’d rather have a connector than directly attach it, it’ll make eventually replacing it easier in the future.famichiki said:
No, I didn't install the temperature sensor.famichiki said:
Thank you, I'll read the thread for grease recommendations and will try to source something locally!
In the meanwhile would appreciate any other ideas what could be going on with that sound in the motor.
jeff.page.rides
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Andrew707 said:
When you separated the motor itself, did you make sure that that very small spacer like the one that's on the end of the blue gear is in place?
Did you make sure that the white insulators are in the proper position to keep the wires from grounding out on the motor housing?
That's the 2 things that come to my mind.
Everything looked good in the pictures good luck with that, it's always a bummer when something happens after you think you've done everything correctly.
Jeff
The spacer was quite bent but I think I put it in place. However, I didn't pay attention to white insulators when putting it together. Thank you for the ideas! I'll take everything apart today and will try to verify if everything is in place.jeff.page.rides said:
jeff.page.rides said:
Do you have any photos of these? Now I'm wondering if I put my own motor back together properly. I had a wave washer at the terminals end of the spindle, I don't recall seeing any insulators though. :?
Andrew707 said:
This discussion talks about the importance of aligning everything properly and the consequences.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1519052#p1519052
jeff.page.rides
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famichiki said:
jeff.page.rides said:
Ok, that sounds like what I had so hopefully Andrew hasn't flattened his out.
Andrew707 said:
Jeff, and Andrew, did you remove the black terminal block from the motor cap during the process? I left mine on while I disassembled everything else. From Andrews photo it looks like he left his on too. Could that have caused any damage?
So I'm just wondering, are these white insulators underneath that.. or somewhere else? I'm just hoping I don't need to pull the thing apart again.
Attachments
When you separated the motor itself, did you make sure that that very small spacer like the one that's on the end of the blue gear is in place?
[/quote]
Where exactly does that small spacer mount? I have been staring at one all afternoon trying to figure out where it came from. I removed the housing to check my blue gear and lube , but didn't remove the blue gear.
[/quote]
Where exactly does that small spacer mount? I have been staring at one all afternoon trying to figure out where it came from. I removed the housing to check my blue gear and lube , but didn't remove the blue gear.
casainho said:PAS sensor fail and repair
I put the following information on the wiki: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki/FAQ#PAS_sensor
I got the PAS sensor working intermittently and after disassembling TSDZ2 motor controller to inspect, I saw the following (left side is the sensor failing and on right side is new one):
Seems the failing sensor was sanded (about 1 millimeter) by the torque sensor part ring where the 20 small magnets are. Why did it happen? Maybe when I previously disassembled and assembled again the torque sensor I did not install a needed washer? Or maybe there is now some looseness of the axle where the torque sensor is due to wear after the many usage I did to the motor?
To repair, I exchanged the PAS sensor to a new one from a broken motor controller I had, by cutting the original 4 color wires of the old one to solder the wires of the new one. This time I put 2 little washers between the PAS sensor and the place it is screwed so it is now far way about 1 millimeter and with this I hope it will not be sanded enough, by the torque sensor, to fail. Other option to repair could be simple exchange for a new motor controller however I would need also to put that 2 little washers under the PAS sensor.
Did you lower your PAS sensor so it was level or below the surface of the case? My PAS sensor sits about 0.5mm above the case. So, do you think it's better to lower this so it is level with the case (and won't be sanded) and would it still work properly?
jeff.page.rides said:
famichiki said:
So today I disassembled everything again.
First, I've tried to replace blue gear back to the original one. The motor was behaving the same.
Second, I disassembled the motor itself and checked if waved spacer was in its place and that white insulators were in proper position and were not grounding out on the motor housing. The copper wires had some thermal paste on but I believe that shouldn't be a problem. Assembled everything back and tested it again but no luck.
Third, I was thinking that the sound motor makes feels like something is slipping. So my hypothesis was that the shaft on which you mount blue gear is too greasy and it's slipping. So I used rubbing alcohol to clean it but it didn't help as well. Also in all youtube videos I see that people are able to remove that shaft but I wasn't able to. It seems stuck.
When pedalling slowly everything seems to work fine. When I apply more force to the pedals I feel like the power drops and then the "wrum" sound usually appears. Kinda feels like that all the lost power accumulates and fires suddenly causing motor to spin very fast and slip? Is that even possible?
Btw, here are more pics of work done today: https://imgur.com/a/V5DvbOQ
Andrew707 said:
Did you figure out what these white insulators are that Jeff mentioned, could be he referring that that woven tape?
Your pics all look ok. I also have got thermal paste over the copper wires, so I hope it's not going to be a problem. I used Artic MX-4 which says is metal-free and not electrically conductive.
Andrew707 said:
The bearing behind the pinion gear is a tight fit in the gear case, so that shaft needs to be tapped out from the drive side.
Have a look at the bearings in the blue gear and make sure they are not spinning within the gear, particularly the roller clutch one. Some people have had trouble with that. I glued the ball bearing one in with retaining compound, but my roller bearing seems to be firmly mounted. If there is any grease inside the roller bearing it must not be EP (Extreme Pressure) or it could slip. Usually if a grease is EP it will say it, otherwise it may say nothing. But you'd need to research the data sheets etc to be sure.
Be sure to press the motor caps back on as evenly as possible.
Keep us updated please!
Oh, and I've just been reading about your bottom bracket beer can shim because my BB measures 34.0mm.
jeff.page.rides
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famichiki said:Andrew707 said:
Did you figure out what these white insulators are that Jeff mentioned, could be he referring that that woven tape?
Your pics all look ok. I also have got thermal paste over the copper wires, so I hope it's not going to be a problem. I used Artic MX-4 which says is metal-free and not electrically conductive.
Andrew707 said:
The bearing behind the pinion gear is a tight fit in the gear case, so that shaft needs to be tapped out from the drive side.
Have a look at the bearings in the blue gear and make sure they are not spinning within the gear, particularly the roller clutch one. Some people have had trouble with that. I glued the ball bearing one in with retaining compound, but my roller bearing seems to be firmly mounted. If there is any grease inside the roller bearing it must not be EP (Extreme Pressure) or it could slip. Usually if a grease is EP it will say it, otherwise it may say nothing. But you'd need to research the data sheets etc to be sure.
Be sure to press the motor caps back on as evenly as possible.
Keep us updated please!
Oh, and I've just been reading about your bottom bracket beer can shim because my BB measures 34.0mm.
All good advice, it's a bummer when these kind of things happen and you're not sure what's causing it!
My biggest problem is always that I can't do it myself because my hands don't work and I have to beg, and plead to get someone to help me do it and follow my instructions. So every time something happens it takes days and weeks to get any one to help.
jeff.page.rides
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I appreciate all the work that everyone has done!
I finally figured out what to turn up and what to turn down to get V1 to work for me and others with much weaker arms than a normal person has.
There are 3 things with the current Version One that would really be a big improvement.
1 When you pull back to brake immediately after pedaling there's a high rate of resistance no matter where I put the setting and it doesn't go away until you move the cranks back forward a half-inch after I've stopped pedaling, then the resistance goes away. But in a panic situation and you don't remember you have to go forward again before you pull back again to get brakes to work, and it is scary, but luckily no crashes yet. That's the way it was back in version 19 and when version 20 came out it fixed that. If someone can look into this and then make the changes in V20 to V1 that would be awesome.
2 Also when taking off from a dead stop it would be nice to have a little more power and a lot less shake & shutter to get moving.
3 STARTUP BOOST is switched disable is enable. It would be nice to have this fixed.
Thanks, Jeff
I finally figured out what to turn up and what to turn down to get V1 to work for me and others with much weaker arms than a normal person has.
There are 3 things with the current Version One that would really be a big improvement.
1 When you pull back to brake immediately after pedaling there's a high rate of resistance no matter where I put the setting and it doesn't go away until you move the cranks back forward a half-inch after I've stopped pedaling, then the resistance goes away. But in a panic situation and you don't remember you have to go forward again before you pull back again to get brakes to work, and it is scary, but luckily no crashes yet. That's the way it was back in version 19 and when version 20 came out it fixed that. If someone can look into this and then make the changes in V20 to V1 that would be awesome.
2 Also when taking off from a dead stop it would be nice to have a little more power and a lot less shake & shutter to get moving.
3 STARTUP BOOST is switched disable is enable. It would be nice to have this fixed.
Thanks, Jeff
jeff.page.rides
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famichiki said:
famichiki, Thanks so much for sharing all this!
I am liquid cooling my TSDZ2 and I have an oil leak coming from the drive side bottom bracket spindle area. I think the oil is getting around the bearing and case and on the shaft for the small gear where it drives the large gear. I am going to disassemble the TSDZ2 and put some sealant where the bearing contacts the case and the small gear shaft to stop the leak.
After reading your information I would very much like to replace all the bearings to help stop the leak and for all the other improvements you talk about in this post. On my handcycle the TSDZ2 sits up high off the ground and I only ride in dry weather and very seldom in dust.
Will you please advise me on which bearing part numbers you think would be best for this situation to replace every bearing?
Thanks,
Jeff
jeff.page.rides said:
Have you sealed behind the PAS sensor? You'll need to do that where the cable runs through to the controller. Also seal the screws under the lower plastic cover that hold the controller in place, although they should have some kind of glue on them already.
Immediately behind the pinion gear, there is a 6001RS bearing (12 x 28 x 8mm) on the reduction shaft. This is a very tight press fit on the reduction shaft and similarly firmly fitted into the gear case, so in theory fluid should not be leaking around the bearing but is instead coming through it.
Replace this with a bearing that uses contact seals, such as RS1 or RSH designation for SKF bearings, Nachi NSE9 or NSK DDU. I used a Nachi 6001-2NSE9CM which has a slightly tighter than normal clearance and is intended for low-noise applications in electric motors. This link shows the seals.
https://www.nachi-fujikoshi.co.jp/eng/web/pdf/B3402E.pdf
Even if your bearing is tight on the reduction shaft you may still need to seal the inner race, as there are grooves cut into the shaft underneath it where fluid could seep through.
If you are still getting a leak into the right side of the case and it's not affecting the torque sensor then you'll need to replace the dust seals with with those other bearings I suggested and seal them on both races. The factory seals are very loose due to the undersized spindle. I'm still experimenting here but have ordered one of the 6902LLUMAX Enduro bearings and one of the 6902LLUMAX-E extended inner race type.
If your motor has high mileage, you may like to replace the 608RS which is fitted on the other end of the reduction shaft in the electric motor housing.
For that, I used a SKF 608-2RSH which has heavy duty contacting seals and so may keep out the oil if that's a concern. My worries were cross-contamination with grease for the blue gear and shaft play causing blue/metal gear failure. However a basic brand name bearing like FAG 608-2RS would probably be just fine here under normal circumstances. But then again, in your case if you want to let the oil lubricate the bearings instead, then choose ones with non-contact metal dust shields (or even no shields at all). I think these are usually ZZ or 2Z designation.
jeff.page.rides
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famichiki said:
Thank You for your reply!
We did add some silicone between the 2 cases where the wires go through the case.
I will try to find a USA Bearing supplier to order these from.
In my case would you suggest any of the double bearings?
jeff.page.rides said:
I can't see how they would fit or what benefit they would have. Normally in a gearbox situation you'd use an oil lubricated open bearing with no shields and have a separate rotary shaft seal to stop the fluid escaping. But there's not even any space to fit a seal here.
Today I disassembled the right side of the motor so I can remove gear shaft. Then cleaned the shaft and inside the blue gear, put everything together, greased it (still don't have the right grease) and tried the motor again. No luck... Here's another video going slightly uphill and the sound is happening pretty often... Any other ideas what to check? Can it be controller malfunctioning?
Btw, more photos of today's work: https://imgur.com/a/LBZepqa
Btw, more photos of today's work: https://imgur.com/a/LBZepqa
Andrew707 said:
I'm running out of ideas here sorry. It doesn't look like you've done anything you'd expect to cause it.
Does it do it in all gears? Is your chain line and chain condition good? Do the cranks rotate smoothly with the motor off or do you feel any tightness within the motor?
Can you lift the back wheel off the ground and see if walk mode still does it? Do you have a throttle you could try too?
Did you try spinning the electric motor spindle by hand when it was out, and was it smooth?
Did you inspect the blue gear for either of the bearings spinning inside it? Since it's happening with both your blue gears that would be unlikely though. I can't see on the photos, but do you have the circlip between the blue gear and the pinion gear?
