New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[casainho]

Seems that other mid drive motors can detect with a sensor when user shift gears and the motor coasts during a fixed time so the gears without motor doing torque -- is this feature a must have or is ok as it is without it on TSDZ2 motor?

Is it easy to implement that feature on the TSDZ2? At the moment I either stop pedalling or pedal a touch backwards (a couple of mm is all) and it stops the motor before I change gear.

For what I saw on a youtube video from a user, there is a big delay from stop pedaling up to system coast the motor.

I never saw this "gear sensors" other than this description like for the Bafang BBSHD BBS02 BBS01 motors:
The Gearsensor acts like a speed shifter, so you are able to shift your bike at full throttle and barely fill the throttle cut off.
It will make your BBS02 or BBSHD shift faster, smoother and safer.
The Gearsensor is plug and play with any BBS02 or BBSHD in place of one of your ebrakes and is a 15 minute install.

So I assume is a digital signal output from the gear sensor. Should be very easy to implement on firmware and easy to solder 3 wires to motor controller: GND; VCC 5V; digital signal input for gear sensor. I know that Kunteng motor controllers has some free pins available, I did the mod "Regen ebrake like coast brakes" using a free pin to connect to a secondary PAS. I hope the TSDZ2 motor controller also has some free pins - but I understand will be hard to solder to board, as the board is potted.
The idea is the firmware, when getting the signal from the gear sensor, will coast the motor for a user defined constant time.

 

[gggplaya]

Seems that other mid drive motors can detect with a sensor when user shift gears and the motor coasts during a fixed time so the gears without motor doing torque -- is this feature a must have or is ok as it is without it on TSDZ2 motor?

Is it easy to implement that feature on the TSDZ2? At the moment I either stop pedalling or pedal a touch backwards (a couple of mm is all) and it stops the motor before I change gear.

For what I saw on a youtube video from a user, there is a big delay from stop pedaling up to system coast the motor.

I never saw this "gear sensors" other than this description like for the Bafang BBSHD BBS02 BBS01 motors:
The Gearsensor acts like a speed shifter, so you are able to shift your bike at full throttle and barely fill the throttle cut off.
It will make your BBS02 or BBSHD shift faster, smoother and safer.
The Gearsensor is plug and play with any BBS02 or BBSHD in place of one of your ebrakes and is a 15 minute install.

So I assume is a digital signal output from the gear sensor. Should be very easy to implement on firmware and easy to solder 3 wires to motor controller: GND; VCC 5V; digital signal input for gear sensor. I know that Kunteng motor controllers has some free pins available, I did the mod "Regen ebrake like coast brakes" using a free pin to connect to a secondary PAS. I hope the TSDZ2 motor controller also has some free pins - but I understand will be hard to solder to board, as the board is potted.
The idea is the firmware, when getting the signal from the gear sensor, will coast the motor for a user defined constant time.

Actually Bosch Motors do gear "sensing". They don't have a sensor on the cable like some of the other solutions, but instead they sense a drop in torque output or something like that and stop outputting power briefly so the bike can shift.

 

[casainho]

Actually Bosch Motors do gear "sensing". They don't have a sensor on the cable like some of the other solutions, but instead they sense a drop in torque output or something like that and stop outputting power briefly so the bike can shift.

Good to know!!
I would say that Bosch hardware and firmware should has at least 1000x more capacity... I work on development of electric vehicles with 2 wheels and alike.

 

[fixvid]

Can someone please say what is the max TSDZ2 motor internal RPM on normal usage (like running the ebike at 45km/h??)? and how many poles the motor has?? -- I want to calc the max ERPM speed the motor needs to run and so understand the min need PWM frequency...

Motor speed is 4000rpm for 48v units and 4500rpm for 52v units. The motor is the same just the controller is different. Increasing the voltage increases the motor rpm.
About the poles I'm not sure, need to check a disassembled motor.

 

[Rydon]

Actually Bosch Motors do gear "sensing". They don't have a sensor on the cable like some of the other solutions, but instead they sense a drop in torque output or something like that and stop outputting power briefly so the bike can shift.

Actually, Bosch engineers noticed a consistent sound transmitted through the frame when shifting. Their shift sensor listens for that sound and cuts the motor.

 

[casainho]

Can someone please say what is the max TSDZ2 motor internal RPM on normal usage (like running the ebike at 45km/h??)? and how many poles the motor has?? -- I want to calc the max ERPM speed the motor needs to run and so understand the min need PWM frequency...

Motor speed is 4000rpm for 48v units and 4500rpm for 52v units. The motor is the same just the controller is different. Increasing the voltage increases the motor rpm.
About the poles I'm not sure, need to check a disassembled motor.

Thanks!! Can you please explain how did you got those values? - I would like to understand, because they say max 45km/h for wheel speed and the motor RPM shoild depend on bicycle wheel size, chain gears and motor internal gear ratio.

 

[Rydon]

Seems that other mid drive motors can detect with a sensor when user shift gears and the motor coasts during a fixed time so the gears without motor doing torque -- is this feature a must have or is ok as it is without it on TSDZ2 motor?

It is less important with torque sensing as the motor output is dramatically reduced when lightly pedaling. So just ease up on pedaling when shifting. This is unlike the Bafang motors that output a constant power level indexed to PAS levels whenever you are pedaling. In higher levels of assist this can damage the drivetrain without a shift sensor cutting the motor. Stopping pedaling does not work unless you have an IGH. Derailleurs only shift while pedaling so if you stop pedaling the shift happens when you start pedaling again.

Now all of the Bafang BBSxx motors have a gear sensor cable coming out of the controller. Before that, they used a Y splitter on one of the brake cutoffs to attach to the gear sensor. The same gear sensor used on BBSxx should work on a TSDZ2 with a Y splitter on one of the brake cutoffs. However, I believe only the 8 pin throttle version of the TSDZ2 controller has the brake cutoffs enabled. I don't know this for sure as I have never attempted to put brake cutoffs on the 6 pin (non-throttle) version.

 

[casainho]

However, I believe only the 8 pin throttle version of the TSDZ2 controller has the brake cutoffs enabled. I don't know this for sure as I have never attempted to put brake cutoffs on the 6 pin (non-throttle) version.

You mean this system don't have wires for brake levers? So the motor never coast when the rider brakes the ebike??

 

[John and Cecil]

If you stop pedaling the motor stops almost instantly (if not using the throttle). Similarly if you take your thumb off the throttle the motor also stops nearly instantly. Thus the only problem would seem to be for people that like to pedal or press the throttle while braking. I have the throttle motor and I did not hook up the brake levers since I have hydraulic brakes. I do not see any need for brake cutoffs unless you lack the ability to stop pedaling or throttling when braking. It is probably more of an issue with the Bafang that can lurch with the pedals only slightly moving forward since there is no torque sensor.

 

[valsam]

Hello to everyone,i am new to this forum and my need to find an e-bike kit brought me here!
I am a complete noob to e biking and i am in need of some help!
I am 240 lbs and my donner bike is a Marin san rafael (about another 30 lbs) 28" .
From the little research that i did i came to the conclusion that the best choice for me would have to be
the bafang bbshd 1000W with a 52V 17.5Ah hailong battery
and some hotroding for it to work at throttle only max speeds,because
of after 20 years of playing basketball i have very bad knees and hard pedaling is a no can do for me!
The thing is that the bafang setup that i am thinking about costs about 1100 euros-1400$
(aliexpress+ postage tax free to Greece)but is above me budget at this moment(daughters going to College)!
So now i am looking for something cheaper but as good as the bafang if possible,i don't mind if it no as powerfull but powerfull enough to handle my 240 lbs !
I stumbled across the TSDZ2 which seems to cost less then the bafang that i was looking at but will the
TSDZ2 work for me?
I know its probably a dumb question BUT Which TSDZ2 should i choose (probably the 750watt)?
What battery(max. capacity ,Volts and amps) and which controller ?
What is the top speed that i can achieve with throtle only on a flat?
TheTSDZ2 or a bafang BBS02B 750w whith a 48V 16Ah Li-ion ebike battery that is slightly more expencive?
Thank you all in advance!

 

[casainho]

If you stop pedaling the motor stops almost instantly (if not using the throttle). Similarly if you take your thumb off the throttle the motor also stops nearly instantly. Thus the only problem would seem to be for people that like to pedal or press the throttle while braking. I have the throttle motor and I did not hook up the brake levers since I have hydraulic brakes. I do not see any need for brake cutoffs unless you lack the ability to stop pedaling or throttling when braking. It is probably more of an issue with the Bafang that can lurch with the pedals only slightly moving forward since there is no torque sensor.

Thanks for the information. It is now clear to me.

 

[James Broadhurst]

Question: the distance from center bracket to the chainring looks like 50 mm.
I would like to bring this down to 40 mm.
From what I can see on pictures is that the TSDZ2 chainring already has an offset, but I don't know how much that is and what possibilities there are to get the chainring even closer. On the attached drawing it looks like the motor sets the limit.

The 42t chain ring has about 5mm offset which gives 50.2mm chainline. You can reduce that by 0.5mm with spacer but anymore and you will hit the gear cover - gggplaya's 42t looks expensive but to get a further 5mm reduction in offset, its worth it.

I run mine with 3 chainrings and, from that experience which adds a bit more than 10mm to the offset, I would think you'll get off with just fitting the standard 42t. Does your Dutch bike have no rear gears? A few I've seen have not. That might make it easier in that on the highest gear, the chain rubs my derailleur cage on the lower rear gears. Good luck!

 

[fixvid]

Can someone please say what is the max TSDZ2 motor internal RPM on normal usage (like running the ebike at 45km/h??)? and how many poles the motor has?? -- I want to calc the max ERPM speed the motor needs to run and so understand the min need PWM frequency...

Motor speed is 4000rpm for 48v units and 4500rpm for 52v units. The motor is the same just the controller is different. Increasing the voltage increases the motor rpm.
About the poles I'm not sure, need to check a disassembled motor.

Thanks!! Can you please explain how did you got those values? - I would like to understand, because they say max 45km/h for wheel speed and the motor RPM shoild depend on bicycle wheel size, chain gears and motor internal gear ratio.

It's written on the motor alongside the voltage and other info. 90 cadence rpm probably corresponds to 4000 motor rpm. That's where the assist stops.

 

[John and Cecil]

Hello to everyone,i am new to this forum and my need to find an e-bike kit brought me here!
I am a complete noob to e biking and i am in need of some help!
I am 240 lbs and my donner bike is a Marin san rafael (about another 30 lbs) 28" .
From the little research that i did i came to the conclusion that the best choice for me would have to be
the bafang bbshd 1000W with a 52V 17.5Ah hailong battery
and some hotroding for it to work at throttle only max speeds,because
of after 20 years of playing basketball i have very bad knees and hard pedaling is a no can do for me!
The thing is that the bafang setup that i am thinking about costs about 1100 euros-1400$
(aliexpress+ postage tax free to Greece)but is above me budget at this moment(daughters going to College)!
So now i am looking for something cheaper but as good as the bafang if possible,i don't mind if it no as powerfull but powerfull enough to handle my 240 lbs !
I stumbled across the TSDZ2 which seems to cost less then the bafang that i was looking at but will the
TSDZ2 work for me?
I know its probably a dumb question BUT Which TSDZ2 should i choose (probably the 750watt)?
What battery(max. capacity ,Volts and amps) and which controller ?
What is the top speed that i can achieve with throtle only on a flat?
TheTSDZ2 or a bafang BBS02B 750w whith a 48V 16Ah Li-ion ebike battery that is slightly more expencive?
Thank you all in advance!

I think hills is going to be the question. How steep are the hills where you will be riding? I would think the 750w motors would be ok if it is relatively flat there. The bafang motors require less pedaling and can use the more powerful battery (tsdz2 cannot use a fully charged 52v battery). I am only using a small temporary battery with lower than 15 amp output so I do not know how much max power my motor will put out. I think maybe the bafang would be better for you though with a 52v (14s) battery considering your knees. Perhaps you can get a better deal on the BBS02 750w, and it can be hot-rodded through the firmware to put out up to 1300w power with a 52v battery. Here in the USA they are about $450 usd shipped. You can always start off with a smaller battery and then upgrade to a larger one later and keep the small battery for a second battery on longer trips. I am actually using a small 52v power tool battery and it was only $40 with a charger.

I am sure the other people here will be of more help, as I too am pretty new to the ebike scene.

 

[asterduc]

Question: the distance from center bracket to the chainring looks like 50 mm.
I would like to bring this down to 40 mm.
From what I can see on pictures is that the TSDZ2 chainring already has an offset, but I don't know how much that is and what possibilities there are to get the chainring even closer. On the attached drawing it looks like the motor sets the limit.

The 42t chain ring has about 5mm offset which gives 50.2mm chainline. You can reduce that by 0.5mm with spacer but anymore and you will hit the gear cover - gggplaya's 42t looks expensive but to get a further 5mm reduction in offset, its worth it.

I run mine with 3 chainrings and, from that experience which adds a bit more than 10mm to the offset, I would think you'll get off with just fitting the standard 42t. Does your Dutch bike have no rear gears? A few I've seen have not. That might make it easier in that on the highest gear, the chain rubs my derailleur cage on the lower rear gears. Good luck!

Thanks for the info. You wrote 0.5 mm, did you really mean 0.5 or did you mean 5 mm?
At 40 mm out of the center the chain ring would be in line with the sprocket on the rear wheel, which is just one sprocket because these bikes are using gearing hubs. The sprocket can be flipped and/or some spacer rings can be added, but they won't reach as far as 10 mm. 5 mm might work though. So if there is a solution to move the chain ring closer to the center by 5 mm that could solve my problem.

 

[MiserHarry]

Reading thru this thread, I read where the 36V TSDZ2 kit will shut off around 50V and the 48V kit will shut off around 56V.

Can I set a low voltage shutoff on the 48V kit lower in the user settings so I might use it on 36volts too?

 

[Bigwheel]

Reading thru this thread, I read where the 36V TSDZ2 kit will shut off around 50V and the 48V kit will shut off around 56V.

Can I set a low voltage shutoff on the 48V kit lower in the user settings so I might use it on 36volts too?

Just swap out the control board for a 48v one. Your problem is at the upper not lower voltage limit.

There are 52v control boards available also.

 

[gggplaya]

Question: the distance from center bracket to the chainring looks like 50 mm.
I would like to bring this down to 40 mm.
From what I can see on pictures is that the TSDZ2 chainring already has an offset, but I don't know how much that is and what possibilities there are to get the chainring even closer. On the attached drawing it looks like the motor sets the limit.

The 42t chain ring has about 5mm offset which gives 50.2mm chainline. You can reduce that by 0.5mm with spacer but anymore and you will hit the gear cover - gggplaya's 42t looks expensive but to get a further 5mm reduction in offset, its worth it.

I run mine with 3 chainrings and, from that experience which adds a bit more than 10mm to the offset, I would think you'll get off with just fitting the standard 42t. Does your Dutch bike have no rear gears? A few I've seen have not. That might make it easier in that on the highest gear, the chain rubs my derailleur cage on the lower rear gears. Good luck!

Thanks for the info. You wrote 0.5 mm, did you really mean 0.5 or did you mean 5 mm?
At 40 mm out of the center the chain ring would be in line with the sprocket on the rear wheel, which is just one sprocket because these bikes are using gearing hubs. The sprocket can be flipped and/or some spacer rings can be added, but they won't reach as far as 10 mm. 5 mm might work though. So if there is a solution to move the chain ring closer to the center by 5 mm that could solve my problem.

He meant 5mm more than the factory chainring because on the description page it says the new chainring has an offset of 10mm total.

I installed it today and this chainring is as close to the motor as you can possibly geat, there's maybe a 1mm gap in clearance, it's really tight. The chainline is just about perfect with my Nuvinci hub using the spacer on the inside of the rear sprocket. I didn't finish installation of the hub, i'm still waiting for a few parts. But it looks good in mockup.

 

[MPM]

But it looks good in mockup.

Wow looks nice!

 

[asterduc]

He meant 5mm more than the factory chainring because on the description page it says the new chainring has an offset of 10mm total.

thank you.
this chain ring looks cool and tight, ... very tight!

 

[John and Cecil]

He meant 5mm more than the factory chainring because on the description page it says the new chainring has an offset of 10mm total.

Sweet chainring, I don't see it doing too much for the chain line though. I measured the distance between my stock chainring cover and the motor and I am getting about 3.5mm. I guess it moved the chainline in about 2.5mm. I do like the chainring, perhaps they make them in smaller sizes. I think I might like to drop down a bit to get some better hill climbing ability in the future.

On a side note it looks like PSWPower pulls the actual manufacturer sticker off and replaces it with a pswpower sticker. I pulled mine up today to see if the original is underneath and it is not. Thus I am still unsure if they sent me a 500w or 750w motor

 

[pliebenberg]

I've had my Tongsheng TSDZ2 (purchased through Recycles E-bike) up and running for about a week now; it's installed on a Specialized Stumpy 29er (did require some alterations to fit) with a 32 tooth chainring mounted on the accessory 104 BCD adapter. Works as advertised and IMHO is a helluva deal for a mid-drive with a torque sensing PAS.

Some quick observations:
The 52 volt version works just fine with a fully charged 52v battery, at least mine did.

It's rated at 750 watts but the most I can pull through the controller was 670W; given the tiny 16 gauge power leads that's about the most to hope for.

In comparing it to the Bafang BBS02 also a 750w nominal unit; the BBS02 is underrated---easy to pull 1200W or so. Both units are what I consider "quiet"; and both seem not to overheat using stock settings. For the kind of riding I do the cadence PAS of the BBS02 is useless so I'm always using the throttle; so far the throttle on the TSDZ2 is very seldom used.

Time will tell regarding the Tongsheng's reliability. (I purchased the metal gear; won't put it in until I need to)

 

[MiserHarry]

Reading thru this thread, I read where the 36V TSDZ2 kit will shut off around 50V and the 48V kit will shut off around 56V.

Can I set a low voltage shutoff on the 48V kit lower in the user settings so I might use it on 36volts too?

Just swap out the control board for a 48v one. Your problem is at the upper not lower voltage limit.

There are 52v control boards available also.

Thanks, but I wanted to carry a spare batteries on a vacation trip and I have a 36V dolphin and 48V dolphin, which fit the same cradle. I have read that a 48V is too high for the 36V controller. Wondered if I could lower the LVC on the 48V unit to run both.
The 48V will shut off by itself at 40V anyway.

 

[Marin]

Battery 101

Batteries operate in a voltage range you can only use the range that overlaps in your proposed situation.

48v is from 54.6 to 40 lvc

36v is from 42 to 30 lvc

Not much overlap not practical solution

 

[gggplaya]

He meant 5mm more than the factory chainring because on the description page it says the new chainring has an offset of 10mm total.

Sweet chainring, I don't see it doing too much for the chain line though. I measured the distance between my stock chainring cover and the motor and I am getting about 3.5mm. I guess it moved the chainline in about 2.5mm. I do like the chainring, perhaps they make them in smaller sizes. I think I might like to drop down a bit to get some better hill climbing ability in the future.

On a side note it looks like PSWPower pulls the actual manufacturer sticker off and replaces it with a pswpower sticker. I pulled mine up today to see if the original is underneath and it is not. Thus I am still unsure if they sent me a 500w or 750w motor

Seems like more than that, the factory chainring has a large flat area leading up to the teeth so it curve out and around the clutch housing. While this chainring is machined and dished to go around the clutch housing and as close to the motor as possible. I'll take some measurements when i get home.